How does Mr Ts ability really work?

[Djarskublar he/him]

So I was thinking about how insanely intelligent Mr T was on the day he made the Diagram. This is a fairly crackpot theory, but it makes sense, and explains some things that didn't make sense to me.

I think that on his intelligent days, he actually has more innate Investiture, and less on his stupid days. Hear me out on this.

The first thing that made me think about what could be up was how he knew/figured out so much. It simply didn't make any sense to me. I don't care how smart you are, you don't simply deduce that much about the Radiants and Shin. You can't predict the effects of the Stormfather's visions on Dalinar years in advance like that. He simply gained knowledge that was literally impossible to aquire by simple superintelligence.

I thought then about the Band's effect on your sight and how people's minds expand on Ascention.

The two then connected in my head. What if the boons/banes affect your spiritweb to manipulate you into experiencing a cognitive effect? Magic is performed through Investiture manipulation, so why not this? If, then, Mr T is experiencing a change in his Investiture that directly impacts his intelligence and compassion, what happens when he has an incredibly high day? He gets some low level sight into the Spiritual Realm like you get with the Bands, coupled with the intelligence necessary to truly understand it. Also, since it stems from Cultivation, he may be better at predicting the future. It also appears fairly end neutral since his intelligence is random centering around average intelligence.

Since distance is a non entity in the SR, he can figure things out in distant Shinovar and predict who the Stormfather would send visions to etc. To me, this is a satisfactory answer to why he knew so stinking much that day.

On a side note, if he had an incredibly bad day, would he die of stupidity? He could potentially not have the base intelligence necessary to keep his heart beating and breath in his lungs.

[Magestar he/him]

10 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

On a side note, if he had an incredibly bad day, would he die of stupidity? He could potentially not have the base intelligence necessary to keep his heart beating and breath in his lungs.

I doubt this is the case.  If this was possible, I know some people who should no longer be alive.   

Seriously though, intelligence matters less than ability in this particular area, seeing as, no matter how intelligent I am, I only have so much Biofeedback capabilities.  This has more to do with access to parts of the brain then intelligence.

I'd say, personally, his powers work more on the same level as a Mentats, if you have read Dune.  If not, I'll explain.  You might want to read this even if you have read Dune.

Taravangian is already an extremely intelligent, extremely knowledgeable, extremely involved in the world of politics.  He has read a lot of books, and is fairly old, old enough to know a lot about what goes on and is going on in the world, and smart enough to have studied a rather lot about the Radiants.

When he goes to the nightwatcher, he gains something, and loses something (Intelligence, compassion, both varying.)  He also gains an amount of knowledge.  With this, on his intelligent days, he becomes a super computer, capable of analyzing data to the extent that he can predict the future.  He knows enough about everything that he can deduce, from what he knows, what will/could happen next.  On his best intelligent day, he was so intelligent that he was capable of analyzing the data he has, to gain more data, to predict the future based on possible actions in coincidence with what he will do.  In effect, he learns what he has to do in order to stop the desolations, based on the info he has.  Thus, he builds the Diagram.  He also cares almost nothing for Human life on that day, so his Diagram does not take into account compassion, only cold, rational thought.  

I also would propose that his data was flawed, so he did not predict the future perfectly.  Thus, the Diagram is flawed, most likely.

Phew.  I just came up with this now.   That's how genius happens.  

Your idea could be right as well, I don't know.  This is just My Opinion.  Your theory definitely has merit, but I have no idea whether either of ours are correct.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Magestar

[+hwiles He/Him]

I believe in an interview a few years ago Sanderson implied that a reader was on the right track when they asked if Taravangian's presence in the cognitive and spiritual realms is what is being manipulated to alter his intelligence and compassion.  IE: on a smart day his presence in the spiritual realm is being reduced, thereby reducing his compassion for other living beings, in order to increase his presence in the cognitive realm.

I think you've offered a solid extrapolation/addition to this point and I'm inclined to agree that there are some things in the Diagram that just don't seem like they could have been predicted from any amount of knowledge Taravangian could have had; unless of course he was tapping the collective knowledge of all of Roshar directly from the cognitive realm.  How could he possibly have known Dalinar would get visions from Honor?  Dalinar only turned his life around and became honorable, instead of a marauding warlord because of a cryptic message scrawled in blood next to his brother's corpse.  Szeth didn't want to leave that message, he only did so because he wasn't able to get away before Gavilar started giving his last words (which are sacred or something to Shin).

I'm not sure his innate investiture is changing; I think it's probably more like, how his innate investiture is distributed throughout the 3 realms is changing.  Increased intellectual connection to other people (allowing him to know impossible things by accessing humanity's collective knowledge pool) at the cost of decreased spiritual connection to other people (reducing his ability to empathize or identify with others).  There are still some holes in this that need to get patched up, but I have a feeling it'll be built upon in future books.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Quote

Floorboard 27

“One danger in deploying such a potent weapon will be the potential encouragement of those exploring the Nahel bond. Care must be taken to avoid placing these subjects in situations of powerful stress unless you accept the consequences of their potential Investiture.”

—Paragraph 6

From the Diagram

How many people in the whole of the Cosmere use this term? Almost all of them are Worldhoppers, so his use of this term is likely even more evidence of crossing the realms in some way

[Blightsong he/him]

14 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

From the Diagram

How many people in the whole of the Cosmere use this term? Almost all of them are Worldhoppers, so his use of this term is likely even more evidence of crossing the realms in some way

Brandon has said that he doesnt know about the other planets, so i doubt Mr T knows that much more.

[Argel he/him]

Pretty sure there is a WoB out there about Rosharans having some Cosmere knowledge. The Heralds obviously would. There are also world hoppers, the Ghostbloods (don't forget Mraize is from Roshar), Gavilar who we believe had the visions (and T and Gavilar appear to have been co-conspirators before the assassination). So I think it just shows Mr T was cosmere aware. In fact, The WoB I'm thinking of may have been about this specific quote or Mr. T and The Diagram.

[Yata he/him]

58 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I think you've offered a solid extrapolation/addition to this point and I'm inclined to agree that there are some things in the Diagram that just don't seem like they could have been predicted from any amount of knowledge Taravangian could have had; unless of course he was tapping the collective knowledge of all of Roshar directly from the cognitive realm.  How could he possibly have known Dalinar would get visions from Honor?  Dalinar only turned his life around and became honorable, instead of a marauding warlord because of a cryptic message scrawled in blood next to his brother's corpse.  Szeth didn't want to leave that message, he only did so because he wasn't able to get away before Gavilar started giving his last words (which are sacred or something to Shin).

The Diagram predicted both the outcomes. A Dalinar warlord and a peaceful one.

Probably Mr T predicted what would happen if Dalinar will begin to follow Gavilar's path and what if he don't. 

This may happen with the Gavilar's last words, with a promise made before that night. Without direct reason with Dalinar who began to show interest in what Gavilar did,ecc....

Whatever the trigger may be, with the knowledge (first hand) of Dalinar's mind and an absolute intellect.. Mr T may really predict what Dalinar will become....of course he can't know if the "trigger" was activated.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Yata

[Djarskublar he/him]

To expand on my points a bit now that I have read your replies and thought more, I still think my explanation makes the most sense. I would like to clarify first that I believe he is gaining/losing Investiture every day. Gain some in a way that increases his intellect, and lose some in compassion or vice versa.

There are some thing he learned that he couldn't have learned any way other than peeking into the SR and seeing some information. He did work similarly to a mentats then, but he was way beyond their level. He was just ridiculous. He has accurately predicted how things will go for years now. That isn't something you can do no matter how smart you are. You simply don't understand enough about everyone that is a major player on a fundamental personality level. If he is looking at their spiritwebs, though, I could see him having gained enough knowledge to extrapolate probable major events.

Another thing, he made the Diagram deliberately hard to translate. He knew how fast the people involved would translate it. He made it so that they would only learn more from it as needed.

Also, how do you explain his knowledge regarding the Listeners and Shin? He probably knew fairly accurately how the Listener forms worked, and he also figured out that the Shin have the Honorblades. There is no way he could even have known of the Honorblades, let alone where they were located. There is absolutely no way he could have learned of the mechanics of the Listeners without seeing their Spiritual make-up. I can see an argument that he had met one of the Listeners before, but that doesn't expand to understanding their forms AT ALL. It is something they barely understand at all themselves. Unless Venli had already discovered Stormform back then, which I doubt greatly, and he just saw the connections in her mind that allowed him to understand they would use the form. I think it more likely that he saw their Spirit in its entirety and with his now massive intelligence figured out exactly what they were capable of, and what would happen when they bonded any particular spren. He probably saw all the different kinds of spren as well. He also understood exactly what the parshmen are as well.

Another point, even on highly intelligent days where he can't make policy, he doesn't have the sheer ability to understand where this stuff all came from. This is because he doesn't have the Spiritual Connection necessary to do so any more.

The explanation that he was tapping the CR doesn't make sense. The CR is location based. It isn't possible that he could see and understand his entire world to the point where he can predict Highstorm dates perfectly years in advance. Einstein couldn't instantly predict what all natural laws would be based on his experiences, and so I think it safe to say that merely being superintelligent is not enough to explain all that he knows. On the other hand, gaining enough Investiture to peek into the SR and having enough intelligence to understand what he sees makes sense.

[Argel he/him]

21 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Another thing, he made the Diagram deliberately hard to translate. He knew how fast the people involved would translate it. He made it so that they would only learn more from it as needed.

We do not know if that is true. The in-book reason is that other languages were not granular/descriptive enough to represent what what he wanted to write, so he created a language that was. He may have calculated how long it would take them to decipher it and considered it acceptable. Or he may have been too focused to even think about that.

I'm curious why you are associating knowledge with more investiture? Nightblood has 1000 breathes and his knowledge is sorely lacking. I am not sure we have seen any examples of gaining knowledge beyond ascending, and I doubt the Nightwatcher is gifting that much out.

 

28 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

There is no way he could even have known of the Honorblades, let alone where they were located.

Why couldn't he? One of the worlds best libraries (if not the best) is located in his kingdom. That's why Jasnah was there. That information could also be there. Additionally, he was involved in conspiracies at the time of Gavilar's assassination, and we do not know how much they knew at that time.

Also, Cultivation or Odium could be passing on the information to him, both of which have been discussed in the forums (especially Odium).

It's also possible that humans cannot normally process so much information -- not everyone is a grand master at Chess, seeing double digit number of moves ahead, which seems to be the analogy. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

8 minutes ago, Argel said:

We do not know if that is true. The in-book reason is that other languages were not granular/descriptive enough to represent what what he wanted to write, so he created a language that was. He may have calculated how long it would take them to decipher it and considered it acceptable. Or he may have been too focused to even think about that.

Not sure where, but I remember seeing somewhere that it took him another day of extra intelligence to translate it, but I'd have to look for the quote.

[Djarskublar he/him]

12 minutes ago, Argel said:

We do not know if that is true. The in-book reason is that other languages were not granular/descriptive enough to represent what what he wanted to write, so he created a language that was. He may have calculated how long it would take them to decipher it and considered it acceptable. Or he may have been too focused to even think about that.

I'm curious why you are associating knowledge with more investiture? Nightblood has 1000 breathes and his knowledge is sorely lacking. I am not sure we have seen any examples of gaining knowledge beyond ascending, and I doubt the Nightwatcher is gifting that much out.

 

Why couldn't he? One of the worlds best libraries (if not the best) is located in his kingdom. That's why Jasnah was there. That information could also be there. Additionally, he was involved in conspiracies at the time of Gavilar's assassination, and we do not know how much they knew at that time.

Also, Cultivation or Odium could be passing on the information to him, both of which have been discussed in the forums (especially Odium).

It's also possible that humans cannot normally process so much information -- not everyone is a grand master at Chess, seeing double digit number of moves ahead, which seems to be the analogy. 

He is a king. How much time does he really have for serious scholarly study like Jasnah does? There also probably aren't any books in his library that speak knowledgeably about Honorblades, let alone Listeners. The chances that he has read the books in question, if they exist, is truly dismal. Jasnah certainly didn't find those books.

I am not associating knowledge with Investiture, but intelligence. It is an attribute that can be spiked, presumably. It is a human attribute after all. This means that it is theoretically possible that his spiritweb is being manipulated into having more 'human intelligence.' BoM spoilers:

If he gained enough Investiture that day to peek into the SR like Wax did in BoM when he was using the Bands my points make sense

If he is peeking into the SR and has super intelligence, he can do things that couldn't be done otherwise. He can look at the Listeners social structure and form mechanics, then deduce they will use Stormform. He can look at the Shin and see that they have the Honorblades.

Also, your example of Nightblood doesn't correlate. It isn't exactly all that intelligent. Those breaths are going into awakening it, then making it intelligent, and powering it. Holding 1000 breaths doesn't make you smarter, it just brings you to the 4th Heightening or so. Different effects from different Investitures. Breath isn't something that can be spiked anyway, so it wouldn't contribute to intelligence, just senses and aging etc. via the Heightenings.

One thing though, when did this day take place? Before or after Gavilar's death? If it was before, does that make Gavilar a potential Diagrammist? I thought he was a Son of Honor or something. If it was after (I bet this is the case) then there was already a Truthless out there to use, and he realized it.

Another point that has been brought up is that he was basically a supercomputer for the day. That doesn't add up to being able to predict years in advance. Supercomputers can't see every possibility for a game of chess, and that is a game with 32 pieces (that get removed over time) with discrete movement options. The entirety of a continent has more than 32 significant pieces, and they are acting continuously in tandem with each other. That is orders of magnitude harder to calculate. However, if he gained an understanding of every person on Roshar via the SR, he has virtual imperfect information cascade level understanding. That is much more feasible. If that didn't make sense, Wikipedia information cascades. The way humans interact on a continental scale is an imperfect action cascade. I can see Mr T being able to calculate possibilities within an information cascade.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

I am not associating knowledge with Investiture, but intelligence. It is an attribute that can be spiked, presumably. It is a human attribute after all. This means that it is theoretically possible that his spiritweb is being manipulated into having more 'human intelligence.' BoM spoilers:

Hemalurgy is probably the most low Investiture magic we saw in the whole cosmere. The a piece of spirit web doesn't keep much investiture...just think about the new connections a human make in his life. If an old guy isn't more invested than a child this mean that his growing Spiritweb didn't gift to him any meaningful investiture.

This is just to say that Mr. T may become extra smart without be high invested. A "simple" warp in his SpiritWeb may make him quite everything possible, also made him a super genius.

As someone said before, probably is more likely that he is not stable in the realms as other men but instead a meaningful part of him shift every day between the realms.... It's something similar to Lift's condition if you think about. She was forceful pushed "near" the Cognitive, probably much more than a Listener (a race already more near to the cognitive realm).

[+hwiles He/Him]

@Djarskublar - I guess I'm just not seeing why a change in his base investiture is needed to affect a change in his compassion and intelligence.  We have WoB that his change in compassion is negatively correlated with his gain in intelligence.  That implies to me that every day, he has the same total capacity, just balanced differently between different aspects of his humanity.  Maybe his presence in the Cognitive Realm increases to increase his intelligence and allow him to tap into the collective conscious of the world on smart days by granting him a portion of humanity's combined knowledge, or maybe his presence in the Spiritual Realm increases to increase his awareness of the collective unconscious of the world, thereby giving him impossible and fantastical intuition and capacity to predict how people will think, feel, and act.  Both are plausible and could account for the depletion of his compassion for others.  I think it would be odd if his spirit web was changing on a day-to-day basis.  He went to the Nightwatcher to have his spirit web changed; for everyone else who has sought the Old Magic, it seems like they got their web changed one time, and that one time change is what gives them their boon and curse.  I think there might be a WoB related to whether or not a Boon can be spiked away from a person without spiking away their curse, but I can't remember what the verdict was, will keep looking.  More investiture could allow him to see into the spiritual realm I suppose, but, as far as I'm aware that would require an amount of investiture that could very well make him immune to shardblades (like Hoid).  That'd be kinda weird and unnecessary.  I think the far simpler explanation would be that the way his mind, body, and soul are distributed across the 3 realms is what's shifting on a day-to-day basis.

I'm enjoying your theory, and just getting hung up on a single point, it's possible I'm just misunderstanding you.  So my questions to you are this: why does he need more investiture on a smart day than a stupid day when, either way, he is already gaining something and proportionately losing something else in a directly related manner?  On extremely stupid days he has super-human empathy and compassion for others, and spends the day crying his eyes out in solidarity for the people of the world's pain.  Why would super-human intelligence at the cost of compassion require an increase in base investiture and super-human compassion at the cost of intelligence require a decrease in base investiture?

[Djarskublar he/him]

8 hours ago, hwiles said:

@Djarskublar - I guess I'm just not seeing why a change in his base investiture is needed to affect a change in his compassion and intelligence.  We have WoB that his change in compassion is negatively correlated with his gain in intelligence.  That implies to me that every day, he has the same total capacity, just balanced differently between different aspects of his humanity.  Maybe his presence in the Cognitive Realm increases to increase his intelligence and allow him to tap into the collective conscious of the world on smart days by granting him a portion of humanity's combined knowledge, or maybe his presence in the Spiritual Realm increases to increase his awareness of the collective unconscious of the world, thereby giving him impossible and fantastical intuition and capacity to predict how people will think, feel, and act.  Both are plausible and could account for the depletion of his compassion for others.  I think it would be odd if his spirit web was changing on a day-to-day basis.  He went to the Nightwatcher to have his spirit web changed; for everyone else who has sought the Old Magic, it seems like they got their web changed one time, and that one time change is what gives them their boon and curse.  I think there might be a WoB related to whether or not a Boon can be spiked away from a person without spiking away their curse, but I can't remember what the verdict was, will keep looking.  More investiture could allow him to see into the spiritual realm I suppose, but, as far as I'm aware that would require an amount of investiture that could very well make him immune to shardblades (like Hoid).  That'd be kinda weird and unnecessary.  I think the far simpler explanation would be that the way his mind, body, and soul are distributed across the 3 realms is what's shifting on a day-to-day basis.

I'm enjoying your theory, and just getting hung up on a single point, it's possible I'm just misunderstanding you.  So my questions to you are this: why does he need more investiture on a smart day than a stupid day when, either way, he is already gaining something and proportionately losing something else in a directly related manner?  On extremely stupid days he has super-human empathy and compassion for others, and spends the day crying his eyes out in solidarity for the people of the world's pain.  Why would super-human intelligence at the cost of compassion require an increase in base investiture and super-human compassion at the cost of intelligence require a decrease in base investiture?

Okay I think I have a handle on where you are coming from better now. To answer your bolded question, that isn't how I see it, but I guess I forgot to explain that bit fully. What I think is happening is about what you are saying for normal ranges. It shifts you around and you have an end neutral shift in your ratio of intelligence to compassion. At some point though, you have no more to shift over, but you still need to be more compassionate or intelligent based on how the 'dice' fell that day. That is when you have Investiture added. If you have a super intelligence day, then you have zero compassion long before reaching that point, and the extra intelligence just appears. On the other hand, on a particularly stupid day, you go down to the base intelligence necessary to be capable of compassion, then receive extra compassion. Does that explain it better?

I haven't read SH yet, but I have been reading spoiler tags for it since it is so important. The way the three realms are described there does give merit to your idea that they are moved closer to the other two realms, but there is a problem with how you are deducing he got the information. You can't just grab info from a collective conscious. Think about Shallan's trip to Shadesmar. Sadesmar/CR is similar to the physical realm, but has only cognitive aspects of physical entities and space is compressed so you can actually walk from planet to planet. Could she have accessed or affected cognitive aspects of things that are a few miles away in the physical realm? Maybe, but not something in Shinovar that is a continent away. Ditto for Mr T. He isn't going to mind read the Shin or Listeners from his castle. On the other hand, there is no such thing as distance in the Spiritual Realm, so there is no problem with examining anything in the entire cosmere there. Besides that, what could he really have learned about the Listeners from the CR even if he could access them? Their forms were still relatively recent discoveries and therefor not well understood, even with the songs to guide them. Assuming the super day was years ago, but after Gavilar's murder, he may have been intelligent enough to extrapolate some of the things he knows, but all the widely varying things he learns couldn't have come from scant legend and smarts. On the other hand, it could easily come from seeing the SR and understanding Roshar's portion of it.

I may not be entirely right about how he gets more Investiture. You bring up good points about that. I will still maintain that for him to have made the Diagram, he had to have accessed the SR while superintelligent. How is up in the air, and him getting more Investiture kinda like Wax did was merely a plausible explanation for how that would work. I am open to suggestions about how he accessed the SR.

[Spoolofwhool]

I disagree that Taravangian's innate investiture is changing every day. First of all, the obvious question is: "Where is the extra/excess investiture coming from or going?" The obvious answer, of course, is: The Nightwatcher and/or Cultivation. However, this honestly doesn't make sense to me. There is no indication that the Nightwatcher creates a connection to the person. By all indications, the boon/curse of Old Magic is a one-time change. There is no lasting, continuous effect of investiture change, assuming there is even a change of investiture at all. 

Regarding being able to see the future, I don't think this is the case. My main reason for this belief is the fact that, as far as I can recall (Don't have my WoR with me), Taravangian believes that the Diagram was created as a result of his supreme intellect alone, and not as a result of true prediction. What this tells me is that there is no information in the Diagram that Taravangian found to be unrelated to material he already knew beforehand. No completely absurd instructions or predictions. It has been argued in this thread that there is no way that he could've known about more esoteric and ancient information such as the Shin Stone Shaman, or the Honorblades. I disagree. His palace contains largest library on Roshar. This library is known to contain information regarding voidbringers so it is nowhere near a stretch to say that it contained information about the Heralds, Listeners, or the Knight Radiants. We also know that he is well enough versed about Shin to speak their language and know their proverbs. Also, Shin religion is known in Roshar outside of Shinovar, and once again, there are Shin philosophers and scholars so it is likely that there are more books in the library which contain details about that as well. Time, is also not a concern. He rules a city-state. Not a very big domain. Also, I feel like it has been made fairly clear that he is a considerable scholar, since he was working with Gavilar before his assassination on the problem of bringing about the Desolation. To sum, it's not impossible that he didn't know all the required background information before writing the Diagram, and his belief that it was a work of intellect and not prophecy supports that former. 

23 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Another point that has been brought up is that he was basically a supercomputer for the day. That doesn't add up to being able to predict years in advance. Supercomputers can't see every possibility for a game of chess, and that is a game with 32 pieces (that get removed over time) with discrete movement options. The entirety of a continent has more than 32 significant pieces, and they are acting continuously in tandem with each other. That is orders of magnitude harder to calculate. However, if he gained an understanding of every person on Roshar via the SR, he has virtual imperfect information cascade level understanding. That is much more feasible. If that didn't make sense, Wikipedia information cascades. The way humans interact on a continental scale is an imperfect action cascade. I can see Mr T being able to calculate possibilities within an information cascade.

The thing is though that he isn't predicting every possibility that will occur. He's determining which path will result in the highest chance of survival for the Rosharan population by a seed group. This severely limits what possibilities he has to consider. Also, people don't act randomly. At large-scale populations, herd mentality can be used to calculate how the overall population acts. This is probably how he calculated how to break Jah Keved, and even estimate the number of factions which would result. The study of mob and herd mentality is an actual psychological science with multiple theories as to how it can be predicted. I do admit though that there is a possibility that the Old Magic may have influenced him towards certain possibilities.

 

On August 29, 2016 at 8:21 PM, Djarskublar said:

On a side note, if he had an incredibly bad day, would he die of stupidity? He could potentially not have the base intelligence necessary to keep his heart beating and breath in his lungs.

Just have to say, this is the most amusing thing I've seen you say. To answer your question, I'll take a step out of Cosmere theory and into real biology. 

There is a part of your nervous system called the Autonomic Nervous System. As its name suggests. it controls the functions of your body which you do not need to consciously think about. These include breathing, heartbeat, and digestion. In other words, intellect and consciousness is not required for these functions to occur. This is why you do not stop breathing, or have your heart stop beating the moment you lose consciousness. Nonetheless though, these functions can fall under conscious control. A common example is that most people can stop their breathing, though only temporarily, and not to death. After some time the autonomic nervous system will either reassert, or you'll fall unconscious. But, as stated, consciousness and intellect can only control these functions, the functions are not reliant on consciousness and intellect to occur. 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Spoolofwhool