My thoughts on some of the characters...And do share your opinion too!

[Guest]

Fun exercise... Here are my rankings for each book:

WoK:

1) Kaladin

2) Adolin

3) Shallan

4) Dalinar

I love Kaladin's arc back in WoK. I thought it was very well wrap on and I loved discovering through the flashbacks why he was made a slave to begin with, but I still thought the character missed something. While I could appreciate I was reading a very good story and a good character arc, I still couldn't connect with Kaladin. For me, he always missed the one special element which differentiate characters I merely like to read from characters I want to spend hours discussing. I couldn't quite put my hand on what precisely and I still can't.

I wasn't drawn into Dalinar's whole vision thing. When the focus changed from Kaladin to Dalinar, I was mildly annoyed especially since the Kholin's introduction scene failed to grasp my attention. Sure, the hunt was supposed to be an action scene serving to make those characters interesting, but the author chose to make the drama pass through Elhokar which didn't work out for me. The buttons weren't well played here in a way to make me feel sympathetic to those characters: if he had played the father/son relationship, right here, I would have jumped into the Kholin bandwagon immediately. The whole girth saddle investigation wasn't the most exciting story arc. This being said, I recall how I ended up thinking Adolin was a fun character to read: he had a distinctive voice which made me want to read his small bouts even if the arc by itself wasn't as interesting as Kaladin.

Thus I ended really liking Adolin as a viewpoint. I put him second and Shallan third, but these two are quite close as I liked Shallan well enough. Even if her story arc wasn't the best one, I ended enjoying reading her. She goes third because I got annoyed at her for not speaking the truth and lying, just as I got annoyed at Dalinar for wanting to trust foolish visions and for not listening to Adolin.

WoR:

1) Adolin

2) Shallan

3) Kaladin

4) Dalinar

I started reading WoR having the same preferences as before, so I was quite hype for Kaladin's arc. Unfortunately, his first chapter, him gathering uniforms was, well, not quite as interesting as Shallan's... Still, I loved reading Kaladin for 2/3 of WoR: he goes third because I ended up really liking Shallan's arc. Instead of being afraid to move, she started to act which I loved. So up until about 2/3 of WoR, I loved Shallan. 

What happens 2/3 of WoR? Adolin. I got really, really into his character within Part 2. After Part 3, he is the one I wanted to read the most, but I had to "suffer" through Part 4 before getting back to him. Adolin doesn't have the best character arc in WoR, Shallan does, but he has this one thing I always felt was missing to Kaladin, which I can't name. He got to become a character I could relate to, I could understand which made me want to read more of him. Also, quite frankly, the dueling arc was one of the best in the book: it had tension, drama and unlike all of Kaladin's fight, the outcome wasn't planned in advance. I genuinely fear for his life on many occasions.

Kaladin goes third because he stop being a pro-active character to become an complaining one: step by step, he erodes the sympathy capital he had through his morose attitude. Understandable, plausible, but not my favorite bouts of the book. He also slowly moved from a character I wasn't sure where he was going (in WoK, I didn't know if he'll escape or else) to a predictable one. He got too powerful, too fast. His flaws aren't truly his, but side effects from the tragedy which has been his life. With Adolin, at least, I know his flaws are his, real character traits, when with Kaladin, I get the dim impression he is perfect (super smart, super strong, super talented at everything), but life threw him a bad number so he developed negative traits. It annoyed me and it made it so I couldn't connect with the character, once again.

Dalinar goe last because I never found his POV to be the most interesting. Truth to be told, he doesn't do much besides being rigid and imposing his rules. It isn't I dislike the character, I rather like Dalinar, but I like him when put in relation with his son. On his own, I like him lest, if this makes sense.

Going into book 3, my preferences are as follow:

1) Adolin

2) Dalinar

3) Shallan

4) Kaladin

Adolin is a no brainer. I have expanded enough on it. No matter how I shuffle it, he's the one character I want to read above them all. I'd take a whole book focusing just on Adolin... Dalinar makes a jump up because of his flashbacks, which I find very interesting, and also because the cliffhanger of WoR promises a lot of father/son interactions which I love.

Shallan is third because I have no idea what to expect with her arc. The whole Ghostblood spying arc isn't my favorite, so I have yet to see how she can remain an interesting lively character as the story moves forward.

Kaladin goes last because I now find him to be pigeon-holed. He has gotten predictable and while it isn't so much he has nothing to do, he has hordes to do, but I more or less guess where this is probably going. As I said, he is too powerful to truly bring about any drama within the story anymore. Kaladin fights? Big deal. He'll win. Kaladin has a skill to master? Big deal. Two trials and he'll be the best everybody has ever seen. My hopes are the author will find a new angle to explore the character in order to remove him form the hole I feel he has dug him into.

[WayneSpren he/him]

My personal Top 10 rankings after WoK:

1. Shallan. My favorite Cosmere character. I love her quirks, her powers, association with the ghostbloods, drawing skillz, and ability to beat Kaladin in conversation. Though I can see what @Ariyar was saying with her illogical alliance with Sebarial. She had amazing flashbacks and had an extremely powerful scene with Pattern at the end of WoR. She's such an interesting character I recently reread all of her chapters from the two books, just to refresh how great she is.

2. Taravangian. Best villain of anything, ever, from anything. I tend to like the "smart, manipulative" villains better than the "I have a giant laser robot" villains. He is the best of that first kind from any book, movie, or TV show I've ever read, though Benjamin Linus from Lost comes close. Fortunately, he's not a cosmere character, so I don't have to rank him on this list.  He wakes up every day with a different level of intelligence and a different emotional state, and he has to murder people to save the world.

3. The Lopen. A one-armed herdazian who (apparently) was once a king of some place, and a member of Bridge Four. He lacks no enthusiasm, and we need viewpoints from him. Well, what we need is a whole book about Wayne, Lift, Lopen, and Hoid bantering and expressing their inner wierdness, but this is close enough. I love Lopen's positive attitude to everything.

4. Kaladin Stormblessed. He's cool. He's got a magical shapeshifting weapon which is actually a spren named Sylphrena. I really, really liked him leading Bridge Four in the first book, and his facing off against Moash and Graves in WoR. 

5. Moash. He's didn't really do much in WoK, but in WoR he had an awesome storyline where he  eventually betrays and almost kills Kaladin and Elhokar. Is it wrong for me to wish that he had? Then we could have a redemption arc in book 3, 4, and 5. But still. He's great.

6. Adolin, the uncaged whitespine. He had some of the best chapters in WoK when he fought four shardbearers and beat them to the ground, with some help from Kaladin and Renarin. I want him and Shallan to end up together, because Adolin is funnier than Kaladin. I stand by this.

7. Amaram. Another villain who does bad stuff but for a good cause, he killed Kaladin's friends. Other people hate him, but I think he'll find redemption later in the series. Just you wait.

8. Mraize. Third best villain of WoK, sorry @Daniyah. He is mysterious, leads the ghostbloods, and has a blowgun. He discovers who Shallan is at the end of WoR, which makes us think he's extremely conniving. Unfortunately, it's probably Iyatil who did it. But whatever.

9. Nalan. A herald and future viewpoint character who killed Ym and later tried to kill Lift. He brought Szeth back to life and gave him Nightblood. Need I say more?

10. Renarin. Adolin's brother, who just wants to help.  He ends up joining Bridge Four. Unfortunately, he's pretty useless, until the BIG REVEAL where he turns out to be a Sightseer Truthwatcher.

Sorry, Dalinar and Szeth fans.  

(It should be noted that Stick would top this list, but I was forced to remove him by agents of the villanous Rock. You've been warned.)

Edit: (Also, I totally agree with what @maxal said about Adolin.)

Edit: Parantheses are fun.)

 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by WayneSpren

[WayneSpren he/him]

Just now, Daniyah said:

So Mraize is at 7 and 8?  

Fixed. He's not that good. 

Updated list:

1. Taravangian

2. Taravangian

3. Taravangian

4. Taravangian

5. Taravangian

6. Taravangian

7. The Lopen

8. Taravangian

9. Taravangian

10. Taravangian

Edited August 31, 2016 by WayneSpren

[Dani she/her]

Just now, WayneSpren said:

Fixed. He's not that good. 

Oops. I thought it was a glitch so I hid my post. My bad.

And heyyyy

[Argel he/him]

I thought the Bridge 4 stuff in TWoK dragged on too much, so Kaladin was not as interesting to me until later on, and more so in WoR. Shallan is my favorite from both books. Hard for me to say after that. Kaladin could have been close, but that whole period that he lost Syl was just so blah (except when he visits Zahel). The duel of course was really great, definitely made Adolin more interesting.  I'm looking forward to Kaladin in SA3.

[zeppomarks]

Personally, I enjoy Shallan. I find her to easily be the most complex and nuanced character in the books. Granted, it took me awhile. Whereas every other character's motivations are rather plainly spelled out (each and every times they even mildly consider their situation), there is a lot about why Shallan acts the way she does that I found I had to put some thought into why, before it made sense. There are so many forces working on her character that it's amazing Sanderson can keep them all straight.

However, I also fully understand why folks might take exception to her. I disagree, but I understand.

[Ariyar]

@Argel

 

Quote

And he might say it's just too much hassle to deal with. Plus, it just does not appear to be his style. Also, Palona is Herdazian and Shallan has Herdazian ancestors. That may just be a soft spot for him. It would have been interesting to see how things played out if she was not part Herdazian and not from Jah Kaved. Or see what his POV was on it.

Think of it this way -- he gets to remain neutral in the Sadeas vs. Dalinar polical war but now has an avenue to build ties to the Kohlin family outside of it. From that perspective, she's a low risk, long term investment who also works as a clerk for him.

Except Sebarial is never portrayed as playing the political game, and Shallan doesn't come accross that way either. I think they both had enough of an understanding on that point to avoid being too way. Note though that Sebarial did probe her with a few questions (e.g. about Adolin). He also doesn't need to do that on that trip and probabyl expects Palona to keep an eye on her.

There's also the possibility he knows more about what's going on. I think it's a long shot, but the "trick of the light" comment could have deeper meaning.

Perhaps so. But I feel as if the discussion regarding this case is...like the different sides of a same coin. Both of our interpretations could be correct, so I will not debate further on it. Though, I appreciate your input.

Quote

I think the implication was Pattern was too frightened to be easy to order around, and Shallan was under too much pressure (you know, saving the expedition from certain death) to make pretending to freak out over it worthwhile. Think about how much time would be lost if everyone there thought it was a voidbringer. They would not just leave it alone.  By saying it was her spren she diffused the situation.  Also, she had revealed she was proto-KR to Dalinar, so had finally crossed that line, making it easier to cross it again.]

I did consider that too, but didn't mention it because we didn't really have enough information about that.

Quote

It's the father telling the son the way things are. I didn't mind. Elohkar has put Dalinar is serious danger due to his paranoia, and Dalinar was making a point about that. To someone acting more like spoiled child. And Elokhar had just lectured him about how that relationship would be inappropriate right before Dalinar started in on him. I don't think talking about it was going to be an option. Elohkar needed a wake up call.

It could be just my personal preference, since I am an Asian. In here, we consider the effects of marriage more seriously, since chances are that the whole society will scorn on a remarriage. In my life, I've never heard positively about someone remarrying here. So, it could be that I feel the negative consequences more significant enough that Dalinar should have a proper talk with Elhokar, instead of just mixing the two subjects. True, I too believe Elhokar needed a wakeup call, but it would have been nicer if Dalinar could kindly explain to the young king and perhaps plead with heartfelt emotions.

Quote

Sounds like you are not aware that Eshoani will be getting her own book. That alone implies she will break out of it. And if the theory that each main character will represent a KR order pans out, then she has to break out of it. IIRC, her book will likely be SA4, with Szeth getting SA5.

I wasn't aware of Eshonai getting her own book, when I typed that reply. A few minutes after that though, I found out from other threads that Eshonai will be getting her own book. I was about to edit my comment, but chose to not, since I also read that the Flashback characters don't necessarily need to be alive. In that aspect, I felt that Eshonai not surviving from the fall would be more impressive than her being alive. So, I didn't edit the comment to change my opinion.

@galendo

 

Yeah, it wasn't as if I disliked Shallan from the start. There were some instances of her that I liked very much. It was her interaction with the sailor, who helped her after she landed on Kharbranth. Then, her persuasion of Jasnah into accepting her as a ward. That conversation she had with Jasnah was very realistic, and artistic, that I even talked to my RL friends of the conversation, claiming that I have never seen a writer use "3-attempt persuasion, with logic and emotions, instead of just talent". After that, I got annoyed by her treatment of Jasnah. As you see, she didn't really steal the fake soulcaster for her family. She stole it out of spite for Jasnah, even though what Jasnah did I feel was necessary for both Kharbranth and Shallan.

After that though, in WoR, I liked that she was daring enough to sketch Santhid...and also her interaction with Tvlakv, Bluth, Gaz, and Vathah were mildly heartwarming. I didn't feel unrealistic with Vathah, as opposed to Sebariel, because there was enough resistance in the man and Vathah wasn't really in control of the situation; his men were. However, it was after this point that I began to dislike/feel weird with Shallan, as I stated in my previous posts.

But, I am curious though. You said that you liked Adolin, but still ranked her below Shallan. Is his impression in WoK really that low? ;o

 

@maxal

 

I agree with most of the points. I didn't like Dalinar that much because his visions were kinda boring for me, and...yes, that girth saddle thing was largely anticlimactic. But, as far as his personality goes, I think he is a very likeable character. I just didn't like his interaction with Navani and Elhokar, because those I felt were out of character. However, I liked his interaction with Adolin and Renarin. Also...that digging scene was very emotional.

As for Kaladin, I had the same opinion of him when he lost Syl. But, his character which was built in WoK still outweighed the negativity he had become. It was just, I had a fond memory of him, and he was someone who I look up to, and thinking about his struggles and the way he overcame them actually gave me strength in real life too.

 

@WayneSpren

 

Except for Shallan, Lopen and Moash, I agree with what you said about the characters. Especially, Taravangian. He had the most peculiar setup. Getting dumb from intelligent, then getting intelligent from dumb. That, and his dual persona of kind and evil, I find it interesting.

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Ariyar

[Ariyar]

Ok...it appears I will have to relist my favourites, since everyone is doing it. But, it's quite hard for me to do so, since I usually have 3 categories when it comes to characters - protagonists, antagonists, and supportings. Still, I will try.

= Protagonists =

1) Kaladin - I like him very much. He's a role model to me for being a kind person even when his life is dark and fate never favored him. Moreover, his interactions with his family members felt so pure and genuine that I truly wished things could have turned better for them. Last of all is...his unwavering leadership...it is very inspiring to me, as I really feel that he's someone we need in our world, someone who could guide us even in the our most direst times.

2) Adolin - Among all the extrovert characters I have read, he is the one I find the most refreshing. He is so cheerful, protective, righteous, and even flirtatious lol. He's kind of like a perfect gentlemanly knight, but not really! Why? Even though he has a positive demeanor, he is not as flawless as everyone thinks him to be. His inner monologues, his emotional outbursts, and his murder of Sadeas gave so much depths to his persona. His entire life is a ceaseless conflict, and I hope his ties will help him overcome the bad within him in the future books.

3) Jasnah - This scholarly woman is too intelligent and too rational for me to not like. She's the perfect representation of what a scholar...what a scientist should be. Unbiased, and firm to one's beliefs. However, what made me really like her...is her vulnerability. Behind her powerful appearance lies an insecure woman, who is unsure of the consequences of the decisions she makes, who is doubtful of her own qualities, and who is forever incapable of trust.

= Antagonists =

1) Amaram - With him, it's just plain and simple. There was always one scene of his, which always struck a cord in my mind. “Why? Why did you reject it? I have to know.”  From that scene alone, I realized he was just as vulnerable as Jasnah, but more desperate and vain. Somehow, he felt too real to me, like the people of our world. I just couldn't help but ponder on him even now, if there was anything Kaladin could have done to prevent Amaram from making his cruel decision.

2) Taravangian - Compared to the other world-ending villains, Taravangian is quite new to me. He is kind, and he's striving for the good of the humanity. But his methods are pure evil. Still, what I liked about his character has to be the boon the Nightwatcher gave. From dumb to intelligent, from intelligent to dumb, it was just unique.

3) Mraize - There had always been something about his character. Something scholarly evil. And, there's too much we don't know about him. I wish to discover them. I wish to discover his philosophy, so he is the one character that I expect a lot.

4) Nalan - He is too prepared, like a hound that is set on the task. But beneath his facade, I see he is broken too. With him, I do not wonder if he will overcome the evil within him. With him, I wonder if he will remain broken, if he will be able to lie himself by indulging in the supposed acts of justice. That, and I just want to see whether he will prevail in killing Lift, or not.

= Supportings =

1) Pattern - The entirety of his self is quite intriguing, starting with his appearance which is merely a pattern, or his shrouded past, or his exalted standing among the sprens, or just to the peculiarity of his speech. More than that, he feels like an alien child that is learning the ways of the world. So, it is rather pleasing to see him mature in mind through the novel.

2) Hoid - In this story, Shallan is depicted to be perfect in ideals or emotional quotients. Sadly, I don't believe that, but many of the SA characters believe her to be in right. Jasnah might disagree, but I have a feeling that she will eventually be swayed. However, with Hoid...I believe he's probably the only one philosophical enough to be able to give a wake-up call to Shallan. And of course, I want to know about his history with Odium, and what effect he will have on the characters of the Stormlight Archive.

3) Tien - He is a child, who remains to be a child, even in his teenage years. There was a purity about him, which I felt could not be corroded no matter who or what intrudes. We can clearly see that in how he reacted to Roshone and the town people, and that scene where he carved the wooden horse was also very touching. I really wished Lirin had left that town, it would have saved this innocent child.

4) Elhokar - All we have seen of him are his flaws, and his failures as a king. Yet, I believe there can be more to his character. Like...If only there was a right nudge, he could have been much greater he is, a real king that even Dalinar cannot become. And, I want to see if Kaladin could help with him. That, and I just feel bad for his character, being always pushed around and manipulated by those around him, and even those he trusts.

5) Renarin - He's like Tien, but with mental and health problems. He has a good heart, and is considerate of those close to him. I just want to see if he will be able to survive the changes he will have to do.


Notable Mentions - Szeth, Sylpherena, Lirin, Hesina, Sigzil.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Ariyar

[galendo]

4 hours ago, Ariyar said:

 

  Hide contents

Yeah, it wasn't as if I disliked Shallan from the start. There were some instances of her that I liked very much. It was her interaction with the sailor, who helped her after she landed on Kharbranth. Then, her persuasion of Jasnah into accepting her as a ward. That conversation she had with Jasnah was very realistic, and artistic, that I even talked to my RL friends of the conversation, claiming that I have never seen a writer use "3-attempt persuasion, with logic and emotions, instead of just talent". After that, I got annoyed by her treatment of Jasnah. As you see, she didn't really steal the fake soulcaster for her family. She stole it out of spite for Jasnah, even though what Jasnah did I feel was necessary for both Kharbranth and Shallan.

After that though, in WoR, I liked that she was daring enough to sketch Santhid...and also her interaction with Tvlakv, Bluth, Gaz, and Vathah were mildly heartwarming. I didn't feel unrealistic with Vathah, as opposed to Sebariel, because there was enough resistance in the man and Vathah wasn't really in control of the situation; his men were. However, it was after this point that I began to dislike/feel weird with Shallan, as I stated in my previous posts.

But, I am curious though. You said that you liked Adolin, but still ranked her below Shallan. Is his impression in WoK really that low? ;o

 

 

Yeah, outside the Bridge Four stuff, Shallan persuading Jasnah to take her on was my favorite part of the book and one of the main reasons I was favorably inclined toward her arc in WoK.  There were parts of her arc I didn't like, but it got off to a great start in the beginning.  For the early parts of the book (up until maybe around the time that Syl brought Kaladin a leaf), I actually liked Shallan's parts more than I did Kaladin's.

As far as Adolin being below Shallan overall, I'd say, yeah, his impression on me in WoK really was that low.  There was just so much overlap between Dalinar and Adolin.  They were both investigating the saddle girth, they were both sparring with Sadeas, they were both worried that Dalinar was going mad...the list goes on.  Every time I read something from one perspective, I felt like I had to read it again later from basically the same perspective, and it made me come to dislike reading about both of them.  The thing that propelled Dalinar above Adolin in my estimation was that at least Dalinar had the visions going for him.  Those, I never had to read a second time from Adolin's perspective, and of course unlike the characters, I knew from the beginning that the visions were important to the plot.  At least with Dalinar, I could understand why I was reading about him, even if I didn't enjoy it all that much.  With Adolin, I never really could.  I'm still not convinced that the series as a whole wouldn't have been better if Adolin either never got any PoV parts in WoK or was limited to one or two.

So if Shallan is around an 8 in book one and a 2 in book two, and Adolin is maybe a 3 in book one and a 6 or 7 in book two, then yeah, Shallan edges out Adolin just a bit overall, with 10 points to his 9.5 or so.  It's pretty close, though, I'll admit.

4 hours ago, Ariyar said:

Ok...it appears I will have to relist my favourites, since everyone is doing it. But, it's quite hard for me to do so, since I usually have 3 categories when it comes to characters - protagonists, antagonists, and supportings. Still, I will try.

All right, I'll join the party and give my favorite antagonists and supporting characters as well.  Unlike the main characters, though, for whom my opinions are pretty certainly fixed until Oathbringer comes out, my thoughts on the secondary characters might change if you asked me again in a week.  The top slot in each category is pretty firm, but the others could easily change.  However, here they are at this very moment:

= Antagonists =
1) Taravangian - I'm quite fond of villains who think they're doing the right thing; or, at least, whose motivations seem exceedingly rational.  See, the thing is, I can't really say that Taravangian is wrong.  I mean, with the meta-knowledge I have about the world, I know that the Radiants are the "good guys" of the books and therefore Taravangian is not, but if I were in Taravangian's shoes, knowing what he knows, I'd be doing the exact same thing that he is.  Plus, the wild intelligence swings are a pretty cool and memorable trait to have.  I have a feeling I'll remember Mr. T. long after I've forgotten Sadeas, Aramam, and the others.
2) Odium - Okay, I know Odium hasn't even shown up yet; and yes, I don't usually like the "pure evil" style of villain as much, but Odium gets credit just for his influence on the setting.  I do like the world wracked by hatred that Odium provides: the constant wars, the Thrill, the prejudice against darkeyes, the whole shebang.  So kudos for that.
3) Amaram - Edging out Sadeas by virtue of the same mixed-villainous thing that puts Taravangian in the number one slot, Amaram's a villain who, in a different series, could easily be the hero, if one with a tragic flaw or two.

= Supports =
1) Syl - Correlation does not imply causation, so maybe I'm over-simplifying here, but I don't think it's coincidence that the parts where Kaladin and Syl are together are awesome and the parts where they aren't are...very much not.  She plays a vital role in the series, and I have every expectation that she'll continue to do so.
2) Szeth - Szeth makes the list not so much for his character, which is too one-note for me (seriously, I'm not sure I can name a single character trait other than "follows orders flawlessly", which isn't exactly compelling), but because he's involved in literally every single awesome fight scene so far in the books, with the sole exception of Adolin's duel.  Whether it's assassinating the king of Jah Kaved, attacking Dalinar in a darkened hallway, cutting through the Alethi armies, or fighting Kaladin in the air above the Shattered Plains, Szeth is there.
3) Rock - Others seem to like the Lopen better for comic relief, but Rock cracks me up at least as often, and I feel that he's got more depth to his character than Lopen does.  He's got one of the more interesting backstories in Bridge Four that we already know about (though Szigil beats him in this regard), and I foresee the Horneater peaks hosting some interesting scenes in the future, with Rock likely to play a role in them.

[Argel he/him]

16 hours ago, Ariyar said:

It could be just my personal preference, since I am an Asian. In here, we consider the effects of marriage more seriously, since chances are that the whole society will scorn on a remarriage.

It's probably frowned on in Alethi society, but I think you are forgetting Dalinar's position. He can get away with a lot more than most due to being second in line to the throne.

Quote

Navani to Dalinar: ....The Arguments do not forbid our union. Tradition is not the same as doctrine....  TWoK p864 Kindle

 

18 hours ago, Ariyar said:

I also read that the Flashback characters don't necessarily need to be alive. In that aspect, I felt that Eshonai not surviving from the fall would be more impressive than her being alive. So, I didn't edit the comment to change my opinion.

Her book will be in the front five, so not a flashback book. Only the back five are flashback books.

 

 

[Jofwu he/him]

13 hours ago, galendo said:

With Adolin, I never really could.  I'm still not convinced that the series as a whole wouldn't have been better if Adolin either never got any PoV parts in WoK or was limited to one or two.

So, regarding this discussion on Adolin and Dalinar sharing space in TWoK, Brandon actually said something really interesting about this on Reddit a little while back. Apparently Adolin was never planned as a POV character at all. But as Brandon wrote the Dalinar chapters he kept feeling like Dalinar came across as incredibly inconsistent. He wanted you to feel Dalinar's own self-confidence, but he also wanted you to understand how crazy Dalinar's actions appeared to everyone else. And it was difficult to do both of these from Dalinar's POV. So Brandon actually came up with the idea of using Adolin as a POV character simply so that he could serve to cast doubt on Dalinar's confidence in that first book.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, jofwu said:

So, regarding this discussion on Adolin and Dalinar sharing space in TWoK, Brandon actually said something really interesting about this on Reddit a little while back. Apparently Adolin was never planned as a POV character at all. But as Brandon wrote the Dalinar chapters he kept feeling like Dalinar came across as incredibly inconsistent. He wanted you to feel Dalinar's own self-confidence, but he also wanted you to understand how crazy Dalinar's actions appeared to everyone else. And it was difficult to do both of these from Dalinar's POV. So Brandon actually came up with the idea of using Adolin as a POV character simply so that he could serve to cast doubt on Dalinar's confidence in that first book.

This isn't new: he talked about it in his podcasts a few year ago. It is no secret Adolin was made a viewpoint character merely because Dalinar's arc was too internal, not active enough and thus terribly boring. 

What bothers me most is the fact Brandon also said, on Reddit, he didn't think Adolin was an interesting character because he wasn't secretive. In other words, Adolin will never get to be further explored within the story for the mere fact the author doesn't think extroverted characters actually are interesting. It was more or less the equivalent of saying: "Everybody can be a hero: depressive people, people with PTSD, former monsters, delusional people, autistic people, even atheist people. Everybody has a story to tell. All can be the hero of their stories. Oh everyone but you extroverted people: you, you aren't interesting. You have no depth and no layer, so it is pointless to waste time on you. You don't get to be heroes."

Maybe he didn't mean it this way, but this is how it came across  Ever since, I have been terribly sadden. Being extroverted myself, it felt as if my favorite author was telling characters resembling me weren't interesting thus implying I am not interesting, as a person, and this was hard to swallow. 

 

[Jofwu he/him]

I don't think he meant it that way. My interpretation was that, with Adolin, what you see is what you get. He wears his emotions on his sleeve. He doesn't have a hidden or complicated past. He doesn't say one thing and do another. He's just simple in this sense, so it just doesn't leave a lot of room for interesting discoveries about him.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jofwu said:

I don't think he meant it that way. My interpretation was that, with Adolin, what you see is what you get. He wears his emotions on his sleeve. He doesn't have a hidden or complicated past. He doesn't say one thing and do another. He's just simple in this sense, so it just doesn't leave a lot of room for interesting discoveries about him.

Adolin behaves this way because he is extroverted and while it implies he perhaps do not have "deeply repressed secrets", it does not mean his entire arc would be "uninteresting" because of it. 

I am terribly disappointed in Brandon's statement. I had known for a while he didn't think much of Adolin, the mere fact he never bothers to mention him in his updates or his readers expectations, despite him being one of the most popular characters, was a strong clue. My interpretation is thus he has no plan nor desire to further explore Adolin as a character because he feels his lack of secrecy makes him uninteresting. He'll keep on using his voice to break the pattern, he'll remain a strong foil, but no story arc will ever be about him, just him.

 He probably didn't mean it this way, but he nonetheless said it: emotionally extroverted characters do not have their place within the Stormlight Archive, unless they are villains or foils which was hurtful to hear. Maybe I just had too high expectations for Brandon... he got Adolin right. Very few authors have managed to get one extroverted character right, I really thought he would be more.  It was obvious, to me, after reading WoR Adolin would become a main protagonist, it was only a matter of time. I am baffled to find out not only it will never happen, but one of the main reasons is the author simply does't think there is anything to write. From my perspective, everything was still to be written....

Now I feel the greater fool for actually thinking he was a great, refreshing character with layers and depth.

 

[Jofwu he/him]

I still don't see how you're making this jump in assumptions. Adolin doesn't behave this way "because he's an extrovert". I know plenty of extroverts who don't wear their hearts on their sleeve. I know plenty of introverts who are utterly uncomplicated people and whose biographies would not be particularly interesting.

[Djarskublar he/him]

Alright @maxal time to set you straight. Brandon isn't dismissing extroverts. He is dismissing Adolin. There are other extroverts out there. Galadon, Rock, and Lopen come to mind. Denth is extroverted with Vivenna, but he has layers to him. That extroversion is a mask. With Adolin, on the other hand, what you see is what you get. He isn't extroverted to compensate for something. My brother is a lot like Adolin. Nice kid, but not much to him really. A book about him would be boring. Adolin would be more interesting, but he is really just a one or two dimensional character that Brandon created to fill a need. Even extroverted people can have secrets and depth. It sounds to me that you are really just disappointed that Brandon isn't focusing on the minor character you relate with most. That's fine, but please don't push it onto Brandon. Just ask him at a signing to write another book where an Adolin like character is important. You just see more in Adolin than is really there. Again, that's fine. Just like a certain feathery person likes Renarin a bit more than is probably healthy. I imagine that Brandon is aware how popular Adolin is, so my bet would be that a future book would feature somebody like him as an MC. Adolin is an extremely good extroverted duelist. Full stop. He killed a man recently, but he is a soldier. The consequences probably won't be that bad for him. Be was written as a foil and that is what he will remain as. I liked Sam far better than that whiny prick Frodo. Did Return of the King have any chance of him being more important? Nope.

[Jondesu he/him]

37 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

I liked Sam far better than that whiny prick Frodo. Did Return of the King have any chance of him being more important? Nope.

I feel a need to point this out: Tolkien himself said Sam was the real hero of the story.  He also got as much time as Frodo, and IIRC there wasn't really in-head perspectives for the most part, so they were honestly focused on just about equally I think.

jW

[Argel he/him]

I was going to say that without Sam the quest would have failed (obviously without Frodo it would have too). 

Anyway, Spook took on more life than originally intended, so maybe Adolin will as well.

[Djarskublar he/him]

3 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I feel a need to point this out: Tolkien himself said Sam was the real hero of the story.  He also got as much time as Frodo, and IIRC there wasn't really in-head perspectives for the most part, so they were honestly focused on just about equally I think.

jW

Ah another Tolkien fan I see... I already hashed this out with Kingsdaughter. I disliked those books. I will send you a message why since I dont want to derail the thread. On the other hand, the books focused on Frodo's struggle with the Ring. Sam was literally support cast. He carried Frodo around after all. Adolin is support cast. He carries Renarin's and Dalinar's burdens when he can. Without Adolin the duels wouldn't have happened and there would still be a stalemate. Sadeas would still be plotting and alive. Adolin is useful, but not important.

Ooh I know. I'll start a thread over in a non cosmere forum to point people to.

[galendo]

I think I kind of see what @maxal is saying.  Kaladin has a tormented backstory, and is a main character.  Shallan has a tormented backstory, and is a main character.  Dalinar has a tormented backstory, and is a main character.  Adolin does not have a tormented backstory, and may or may not continue as a main character.  I'll admit that maxal probably follows a lot more WoBs than me about plans for Adolin's future, so it's possible that I'm overly sanguine about his future plans, but I just don't see Brandon cutting Adolin out of the story.  He's got too much stuff left to do, I'd think.  I might be wrong -- maybe Adolin's buying the farm next book.  But I'm not going to borrow trouble before it happens.

I sympathize with the desire to see more of Adolin.  Sometimes it's nice to read about a character with an uncomplicated backstory, and too many of Sanderson's characters lack that straightforwardness.  Maybe more so because I actually think the flashback parts of the books are usually the most boring and unsatisfying chapters.  Characters without tragic backstories can actually make for perfectly fine characters, and it sometimes seems that Brandon doesn't use such characters often enough.

So I don't want Adolin to go away, but I also think that Brandon isn't likely to just get rid of him, either.  Will he survive into the back five?  Maybe not, but I'm fairly certain Dalinar won't, either.  An Adolin at about the current level of focus seems like a good thing, and I'm pretty certain that will be continuing on for at least another book or two.

[WayneSpren he/him]

48 minutes ago, Argel said:

I was going to say that without Sam the quest would have failed (obviously without Frodo it would have too). 

Anyway, Spook took on more life than originally intended, so maybe Adolin will as well.

Sam is THE hero of LotR. If you rewatch Return of the King you'll see what I mean. He is so, so heroic on so many levels.

(Though Eowen is still my favorite...)

(Also, Spook is actually my second favorite Cosmere character, after Shallan.)

 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, jofwu said:

I still don't see how you're making this jump in assumptions. Adolin doesn't behave this way "because he's an extrovert". I know plenty of extroverts who don't wear their hearts on their sleeve. I know plenty of introverts who are utterly uncomplicated people and whose biographies would not be particularly interesting.

Because he is stating he finds Adolin boring due to his lack of "secrecy" and while I may be wrong to bring it about as an introverted/extroverted thing, he still said he didn't think Adolin was an interesting character for this specific reason.

Still, you bring a fair point. It may not solely be about extroversion: everyone is different (you are also right to point out not everyone extroverted will behave like Adolin behaves)), but it has come to my attention the majority (if not all of them) of the SA main protagonists falls within the introversion side of the spectrum. At some point, when you are an extroverted reader yourself, you yearn for diversity. It is absolutely amazing to stumble upon one character who actually behaves in similar manner as you do. It is unbelievably refreshing to not have to do some intense mental gymnastic to comprehend why other charcters are preferring to act the way they do. Or why Renarin is supposedly so interesting when, from your sole perspective, he is just "yet another character who doesn't talk".

Why aren't they talking to each other? Don't they want to get it out of their chest? When you are a talker yourself, it is extremely hard to understand why those characters never seem to have the need to talk to others, so when you read Adolin, who yearns for his father to "talk to him", it is refreshing. And incredibly interesting because fantasy hardly ever features characters such as him.

Therefore, when the author comes forth and say he doesn't find it interesting at all, it is disheartening. When he comes forth and he say the only way a character can be deemed interesting and worthy of a focus arc is if he manages to have this "quality" which he defines as "secretive", then he is making a statement.

He is saying only one type of character which is interesting to write about and Adolin is not it.

Again, there is nothing I can do about it, no amount of writing on my part will ever change the author's perspective on his own character. However, I can be, both as a fan and as a reader, terribly disappointed Brandon is not seeing how great of character he has started to write. I can feel horribly disheartened to hear the one thing I love the most about the character is the one thing the author feels makes him "uninteresting" to write about. I can also feel dispirited the author prefers to focus on several other characters whom, still from my personal reader's perspective, sound similar.

Galendo has a later post which summarizes my issue in rather eloquent words.

4 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Alright @maxal time to set you straight. 

You do not have to "set me straight" as you say. I have appropriately posted my thoughts on a given character within a topic labelled "thoughts on characters". I have made rather clear, in several instances, these were my personal thoughts, my personal opinion based on my sole personal perspective. I have amply stated how my personal perspective may differ from others personal's perspective including the author.

If you wish to state a counter personal perspective then you are, of course, welcome to do so. I would however appreciate if you were to do it without the aggressive one liners because truth is, neither you or I are the beholder of truth. My opinion, your opinion remain opinion and while we may disagree it would be more productive if you were to do it with a tiny bit more respect.

My response to the rest of your post is below.

4 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Brandon isn't dismissing extroverts. He is dismissing Adolin. There are other extroverts out there. Galadon, Rock, and Lopen come to mind. Denth is extroverted with Vivenna, but he has layers to him. That extroversion is a mask. With Adolin, on the other hand, what you see is what you get. He isn't extroverted to compensate for something. My brother is a lot like Adolin. Nice kid, but not much to him really. A book about him would be boring. Adolin would be more interesting, but he is really just a one or two dimensional character that Brandon created to fill a need. Even extroverted people can have secrets and depth. It sounds to me that you are really just disappointed that Brandon isn't focusing on the minor character you relate with most. That's fine, but please don't push it onto Brandon. Just ask him at a signing to write another book where an Adolin like character is important. You just see more in Adolin than is really there. Again, that's fine. Just like a certain feathery person likes Renarin a bit more than is probably healthy. I imagine that Brandon is aware how popular Adolin is, so my bet would be that a future book would feature somebody like him as an MC. Adolin is an extremely good extroverted duelist. Full stop. He killed a man recently, but he is a soldier. The consequences probably won't be that bad for him. Be was written as a foil and that is what he will remain as. I liked Sam far better than that whiny prick Frodo. Did Return of the King have any chance of him being more important? Nope.

First off, Rock, Lopen and Galladon may be extroverted characters, but they also are minor supporting characters which is exactly the point I tried to pass across: Brandon never put his extroverted characters within leading position. My point remains valid.

There are no main protagonists within the Stormlight Archives who can be unequivocally and universally described as extroverted. It is why when Brandon claims the only extroverted character he ever wrote standing a decent chance at becoming a MC won't for this very specific reason, then yes I am a bit disappointed.

Second off, this comment you had about your brother was mean and dismissive. I do not know many individuals who jump in happiness after being told there wasn't "much about them". I will respond by saying simply because you aren't seeing the layers and the depth within other people does not mean they do not exist. You have your own perception and, just like every perception, it is biased. Your analysis of Adolin seems horribly biased towards your own, quite low, opinion of your brother and since you cannot fathom how he could ever be interesting were he to be featured within a story, you deem it must be the same for Adolin. This being said, simply because you aren't seeing the interest in a given individual does not mean others aren't seeing it as well. As it happen, everyone has a story to tell and while you may find one specific story boring, this is your right, there are others who'll find it incredibly interesting. Others find Renarin massively interesting while I think he is just "yet another deeply introverted and secretive never talking" character. I don't find his voice to be distinctive enough to deserve to become a MC, I think he'd work better as a strong supporting character, but obviously the author believes Renarin to be one of his most interesting character. Different people, different perspective.

My whole point has been there is more to people than what they project and when it comes to Adolin, there is more to his "perfect duelist boy" and "unwavering soldier" persona he shows to others. He has enough viewpoints to make it obvious there is more to him than just that.  If "more" for you is "he has been raped as boy" or "he has watched his mother being skinned alive while running from bullies", then yes I agree with you: we aren't going to find such elements within his past. If these are the elements you required for a character to be deemed interesting, then yes Adolin indeed is a boring character.

However, if you are interested in reading about people and how they interact with others, if you want to read about the building of relationships, if the reasons behind the choices we made when it comes to our peers fascinates you, if you think over-confidence is the greatest of all masks, if you find the idea of a character always trying to be storming perfect at all cost completely enthralling all of this within a fantasy setting, then yes you do find Adolin immensely interesting. On top of that, if you are tired of solely reading about under-dogs and honorably pure main protagonists such as Kaladin, then Adolin is doubly more interesting.

Brandon may not want to tackle those subjects. Heck, he may even find them boring, soporific or downright uninteresting, but it doesn't change the fact some of his readers may disagree. It doesn't change the fact what you personally read as a one/two dimensional character, others see as a very complex portrayal of a given type of extroverted individuals. Those who manages to find this angle within Adolin have all agreed the character had many hidden depth and a complexity you would have never guessed upon first glance.

My perspective is thus Adolin was diversity. It was interesting to have one character who didn't strike to solve his conflicts in a similar manner. It would have been even more interesting to see how such a character could grow into the owner of his own story arc.

Third off, I didn't purposefully decided I would relate more to a minor character. Had it been my choice, I would have chosen to relate to Kaladin, but I don't. This being said, I never thought for one second Adolin was a minor character. I saw him as equivalent as Shallan within WoK which is to say, I pictured him being one of the next focus character. I never foreseen Renarin and Jasnah would be major characters because they struck me as relatively minor ones: more minor than Adolin. Such was my perspective when I initially finished reading the book, hence I am disappointed.  A very valid emotion to feel when you spend two years being happy and excited over reading a character arc you are particularly found of only to learn your favorite author doesn't intend to do much here because, as it happens, he doesn't agree with you.

Fourth off, no I will not pester Brandon, asking him to write "another Adolin-like" character as a MC within another story (which I doubt he will as he has shown a clear preference when it comes to his main protagonists and it isn't Adolin-like characters). Considering the fact I do not live in the US, I have next to 0% chances of ever meeting him in person, so forget the signing line and even if I were to get there, I certainly wouldn't talk about that. Brandon will write the stories he wants to write which happen to be the stories he personally prefers and ultimately believes are the best ones. Unfortunately, they may not happen to be the stories I personally want to read which is my problem not his.  Still, because I love him as a writer and I truly enjoys how he is fleshing out his characters, so yes, I had wanted him to make a go at writing one character I felt particularly strongly for and yes, the fact he doesn't agree it would be interesting is a disappointment, to me, as both a reader and a person.

Fifth off, Frodo was the main protagonist, but Sam was the hero: the two don't always have to be the same just as Harry was the main protagonist, but several would argue Neville is the hero.

4 hours ago, galendo said:

I think I kind of see what @maxal is saying.  Kaladin has a tormented backstory, and is a main character.  Shallan has a tormented backstory, and is a main character.  Dalinar has a tormented backstory, and is a main character.  Adolin does not have a tormented backstory, and may or may not continue as a main character.  I'll admit that maxal probably follows a lot more WoBs than me about plans for Adolin's future, so it's possible that I'm overly sanguine about his future plans, but I just don't see Brandon cutting Adolin out of the story.  He's got too much stuff left to do, I'd think.  I might be wrong -- maybe Adolin's buying the farm next book.  But I'm not going to borrow trouble before it happens.

I sympathize with the desire to see more of Adolin.  Sometimes it's nice to read about a character with an uncomplicated backstory, and too many of Sanderson's characters lack that straightforwardness.  Maybe more so because I actually think the flashback parts of the books are usually the most boring and unsatisfying chapters.  Characters without tragic backstories can actually make for perfectly fine characters, and it sometimes seems that Brandon doesn't use such characters often enough.

So I don't want Adolin to go away, but I also think that Brandon isn't likely to just get rid of him, either.  Will he survive into the back five?  Maybe not, but I'm fairly certain Dalinar won't, either.  An Adolin at about the current level of focus seems like a good thing, and I'm pretty certain that will be continuing on for at least another book or two.

Adolin's level of focus going into book 3 doesn't seem very important if I base myself on the updates the author has given us so far.

For the rest, yes you have summarized it nicely  It seems all main protagonists have very similar personalities and trauma: I thought the idea of a main protagonist without heavy trauma was widely interesting. I find the one who has to live surrounded by people comparing each other on "who had it worst" is more interesting... 

Ever wonder what it felt like to be the sibling of a disabled sibling with a disease nobody can quite put a name on, much less comprehend?

Ever wonder what it felt like to have to succeed because the other one most probably won't?

Ever wonder what it felt like to have strong feelings, but to never have validation nor justification for them because everyone around you had it worst?

Ever wonder what it felt like to be the one "who had it all"?

I find it interesting, because it is a viewpoint we so seldom get and yes there is a story there, a good one. It only needs someone willing to write it.