My thoughts on some of the characters...And do share your opinion too!

Ariyar · August 25, 2016

Hello, I recently read two books of Stormlight Archive, and they are the first I have read from Brandon Sanderson.

Those were mildly a good surprise, and I did enjoy reading through them.

So far, I like

- Kaladin
- Hoid
- Jasnah
- Adolin
- Renarin
- Elhokar
- Pattern
- Tien
- Amaram
- Hesina
- Lirin
- Sigzil

Dalinar and Shallan though...I'm not sure what to make of them.

Generally speaking, I believe Stormlight Archive is really well-written and I am into most of the characters. But, when it came to Dalinar and Shallan, I don't know what to feel. Dalinar is indeed a very honorable man, but when it concerns Navani, I feel like he isn't himself. For instance, I don't think it is morally wrong for him to love Navani, however, it could endanger Elhokar, his sons, and the entire kingdom, should the scandal be made public. So, I just can't see how such an upright man like Dalinar would be selfish enough to take such a risk, when the consequences are so obvious. Not to mention, he never once considered if his love might make those kids uncomfortable too.

But, Dalinar's situation...although somewhat weird, I could somehow comprehend.

As for Shallan, at first, I really disliked her because of her actions toward Jasnah. Afterall, the woman, even though not a good person, was kind and courteous to Shallan. So, it made me feel so shallow of Shallan that she would betray Jasnah, with *those reasons.

But, I began to enjoy her character after Jasnah seemed to have die. I liked the interactions she had with the Merchant, Guards, and even other Caravan members and the Bandits. Although I wished she did not kill Tyn, it too was understandable.
What really made me awful about her character is though... When she was talking about Jasnah to others, she should be feeling sad, but instead, she was flirting? But what is worse is...Sabariel. The conversation or manipulation of Sabariel, and his generosity or kindness toward Shallan feels so unrealistic. I mean, a person of Sabariel's standing is supposed to be prideful if not arrogant. However, not only did he let her manipulate him, he really gave her that outrageous salary. Then his mistress just happened to like Shallan and took her in? This...level...of...imagination...feels so childish and delusional to me... I can't find any logic in such a writing, unless Shallan could somehow feel or understand that Sabariel is a very kind person. Even then, it all feels so unrealistic... Even if Sabariel is kind, for the mistress to be kind to a stranger young girl, who could potentially be her rival in Sabariel's love/attention, is still...odd.

That and... The way Shallan was broken-and-not-broken stuff felt weird too. Because, comparing Shallan with Kaladin, Kaladin seems to be much more kindly and caring person. However, even he was still broken. What I mean is... Shallan's personality and actions do not deserve the envy or acknowledgement of Kaladin, when all Shallan did was be...uhh annoying...not witty. Sorry, but it is how I see it. She makes arguments of every little thing, even when it is not necessary. She is not the light Kaladin and the others deem her to be. But she is viewed in such a way that it grates my nerves. Then Kaladin thought Shallan is similar to Tien, but if anything I felt Renarin was more like Tien, and definitely not Shallan. :/

Another thing is...the meeting of the ghostblood. Sure she was eloquent, but she had almost 0 info on them. How can a spy melt into a society, when the said spy knows nothing about them? It isn't like Shallan is a genius face-reader who can read the emotions of others that she could make appropriate choices in every twist and turn. But, everything went well for her. Even though the carriage thing and Adolin's duel were supposed to portray how her wit backfired, they didn't really. Those were just separate issues. All in all, her character is very very very unrealistic. Even Jasnah with all her nobility is much more real than Shallan.

I just hope...Shallan remains with Adolin... And it would be much better if Kaladin doesn't fall in love, or just finds another girl who is more appropriate for him. But since the characters are already set in stone, I doubt the latter would happen. Somehow, I get a feeling that we will get the love triangle soon...and Adolin will soon turn bad, then Shallan and Kaladin would fall in love with one another. The end result is Adolin will also die. ...I really hope all of these don't happen. ~_~"

^ Those were my thoughts. Just wanted to let that out.

I wonder how the others feel about this too, so feel free to comment.

--------------------

On the side note, although somewhat off-topic, please do suggest me if there's another long-running magic-fantasy novel which has main male lead similar to Kaladin. I would like to read it since I have some spare time for now.

[ I have read Wheel of Time and Malazan Empire...like about 9 books each of them. Any other suggestion would be welcome. ]

Thanks in advance.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Ariyar

The One Who Connects · August 25, 2016

Glad to see you enjoyed the books. I see where you're coming from on most of the points too
Personally, I think Sebarial is manipulating Shallan in some way, but I cannot figure what his game would be.
The 2 Mistborn series out currently are a good read, but Sanderson doesn't really do "male lead" so much as 2-3 primary characters, even in the shorter books.

Ariyar · August 25, 2016

12 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Glad to see you enjoyed the books. I see where you're coming from on most of the points too
Personally, I think Sebarial is manipulating Shallan in some way, but I cannot figure what his game would be.
The 2 Mistborn series out currently are a good read, but Sanderson doesn't really do "male lead" so much as 2-3 primary characters, even in the shorter books.

Thank you, I am really happy I read it.

About Sebariel manipulating Shallan in some ways...even if that turns out to be true, it wouldn't change what I said earlier in my post. Because, the first interaction between Shallan and Sabariel will continue to remain dreamy no matter what. But, it might alleviate a little if Sabariel is indeed manipulating Shallan though. But then again, if such a thing happens, it might damage Shallan's supposed intellect, because she allowed herself to be in such situation. So, I am not sure if that is a good.

It's like...

*if she can solve Sabariel's betrayal = she is unrealistic,
*if she is hurt by Sabariel's betrayal = she is not in her character.

The only way out of that might be...Shallan knew that Sabariel could betray her, but even still, she failed to outmaneuver him. But I wonder if Brandon Sanderson would really do that.

I plan to read Mistborn books later, but I did hear Vin is the focus? If that, I might not enjoy it. Off-topic, I only enjoyed Egwene in her later chapters in Wheel of Time. So, it is a little difficult for me to endure female characters, mostly because they are too emotional (in ways of romance) for me to enjoy.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Ariyar

The One Who Connects · August 25, 2016

1 minute ago, Ariyar said:

So, it is a little difficult for me to endure female characters, mostly because they are too emotional (in ways of romance) for me to enjoy. So...I am really hoping if I could find a Kaladin-like protagonist in my next read.

Male characters can have romance emotions too
Some of Vin's chapters might be a bit draining to you, but Sanderson does a good job with his mix of viewpoints that stuff like that isn't really an issue (my opinion at least) Unless I'm mistaken, Vin is the only female pov in the first trilogy, so you don't have to worry about excessive romance

Blightsong · August 25, 2016

I see your points and disagree with many of them, but I realize that much of this is 100% opinion.

My biggest issues are

Sebariel. I think you are stereotyping pretty hard when you say he "is supposed to be prideful if not arrogant". If there is one thing that we learned from his characterization and introduction it's that he is not prideful or arrogant. That is why Shallan tries this on him in the first place, because she knows this from Jasnah's notes. As for his mistress, I think you misunderstand her and Sabariels relationship. She and him are obviously deeply in love and have the relationship of a married couple. She is obviously not just some other mistress, I mean she followed him out into a war zone during a Highstorm to have tea. They are obviously two of a kind and she obviously knows this. If she were seriously worried about her position then why would she be so rude and dismissive of him?
Shallan was not dismissive of Jasnah's death as you mention. She was properly respectful when informing Dalinar and Navani, but you problem seems to be that she then went on to flirt with Adolin (in a separate conversation). I think it's rediculous of you to expect her to brood for months on end about someone she had only known for months, (I also find it rediculous that you think it is shallow of her to have stolen the fake Fabrial for "those reasons" when those reasons were litteraly to save her family from death and enslavement. I would probably kill to stop that from happening, much less steal.) and to not carry out what she had come to that party to do because of this. It didn't seem unrealistic to me at all, it would have actually been jarring if she had just brooded after coming to the party, it would be unnatural to have that character focus on Jasnah when that wasn't the focus of that scene really.
Kalladin wrongly likes Shallan. Kalladin only likes Shallan because he sees in her the kind of emptiness he feels. This does not come down to personability or how nice you think she is, it comes down to Kalladin feeling a kind ship with her because of shared experience. He also doesn't compare her to Tien because of her personality, but because of how she makes him feel better (due to the kinship of their shared experience, and her ability to be sunny despite the horrors she has seen).
Shallan in annoying. Agreed. But her annoyingness makes sense because it directly relates to her insanity. She remarks that she often makes jokes in the face of what she has been through because "it's what keeps her insane", or in other words it helps her distract herself from her problems (she does this to the point of litteraly blocking memories). It's a part of her character, but I understand not liking her as much as other characters because of this.

Its its just seems to me that you are very biased against Shallan. Especially after flat out saying that you don't like female PoVs ( can you elaborate, this actually sounded kind of offensive) it just seems to me that you don't like her because of her character, not because anything is actually wrong with her scenes.

maxal · August 25, 2016

I think several things need to be kept in mind when it comes to Shallan: she hardly ever have third person's perspective. It is thus each time we are reading her, we are reading her own personal thoughts. This implies each time we are being told others are reacting in a given way towards Shallan, we aren't truly reading this individual's thoughts on Shallan: we are reading what Shallan thinks this person thinks of her.

See the difference?

People do not marvel in pure ecstasy each time she opens her mouth: Shallan believes they do. People aren't constantly praising her outstanding intelligence: Shallan perceives they do. Unfortunately, Shallan is a very unreliable narrator who takes in, who absorbs only what she wishes to. As Blightsong so nicely put it: she is insane. She mushes reality so it will fit how she wishes others to perceive her: she crafts lies and truths around her hoping to become this image of herself she has made. She firmly believes if she were to face life face on, without lies, she'd be nothing more than a ball crying endlessly. She isn't strong enough yet to accept she doesn't need this crazy plotting not to break down or perhaps it is within her nature as a Lightweaver. After all, her entire progression has been geared around her accepting facts, about stopping fearing the truth so much, but she isn't there yet. Therefore, her thoughts on reality aren't... reality. Not completely. If we were to read third person's perspective on her, we would probably read a much different story.

She's a bright girl, there is no denying it, but she isn't as clever as she thinks she is. She isn't half as smart as she constantly tries to make us believe she is. She is over-confident, she is careless, she is rushing into the unknown without proper preparations and she is stupid enough to think she fooled an ageless private secret organization known for its stealth. Just because she stumbled on a spanreed conversation and she put on a disguise, she naively believes they bought her game.

They didn't.

You aren't a worthy secret society working in the shadows towards an unreadable agenda, cleverly assassinating your enemies, if you can't see through the poor attempt an inexperienced 17 years old girl is doing at fooling you.

Even Sebrarial, she didn't fool. She hid her age, this is true, but he admits later on he agreed to her bluff merely out of curiosity. I would also note the other Highprinces were highly curious about Shallan: everyone wonders who will get her hands on Prince Adolin. It was a calculated risk: if she turned out being a burden, he could still throw her out. He had nothing to lose as for her "salary", it is barely enough to sustain her personal slaves and guards, so hardly a luxury.

As for Dalinar, yes he is uptight, but it has been made very clear it was his way to control his emotionally impulsive side. He hated the man he once was, he couldn't control himself, therefore he sought to implement a strict code of life to prevent him from ever stepping into those former shoes again. This being said, Dalinar isn't a block of ice: he has feelings and his feelings for Navani are both very strong and very real. He wrestles with himself on several occasions, wondering if being with her was the right choice, stating outright he feared his love for her would destroy the careful control he has been able to establish. If he were to refuse her, to send her away on the pretense he has to be uptight at all costs, then he wouldn't be such an interesting character: this duality in him, this desire to control combined with his feelings are what make him compelling. I do not know how else to state it. As for his kids, they are adults. Single-parents shouldn't prevent themselves from dating again simply because their adult children may throw a tantrum.

Each time we read those characters, we have to be careful to separate the character's thoughts from how others perceive them. I feel you are mad for characters not behaving in the way you would personally approve of. I may be reading you wrong here, so please correct me if I did, but it seems to me as if you wish all characters were Kaladin or very similar to Kaladin... Wouldn't this be boring? I love the diversity we have going on here: each character has its own duality, his own fight and all are interesting.

Edited August 25, 2016 by maxal

Ariyar · August 25, 2016

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Male characters can have romance emotions too
Some of Vin's chapters might be a bit draining to you, but Sanderson does a good job with his mix of viewpoints that stuff like that isn't really an issue (my opinion at least) Unless I'm mistaken, Vin is the only female pov in the first trilogy, so you don't have to worry about excessive romance

If that is the case, I will give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion again.

57 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

I see your points and disagree with many of them, but I realize that much of this is 100% opinion.

My biggest issues are

Sebariel. I think you are stereotyping pretty hard when you say he "is supposed to be prideful if not arrogant". If there is one thing that we learned from his characterization and introduction it's that he is not prideful or arrogant. That is why Shallan tries this on him in the first place, because she knows this from Jasnah's notes. As for his mistress, I think you misunderstand her and Sabariels relationship. She and him are obviously deeply in love and have the relationship of a married couple. She is obviously not just some other mistress, I mean she followed him out into a war zone during a Highstorm to have tea. They are obviously two of a kind and she obviously knows this. If she were seriously worried about her position then why would she be so rude and dismissive of him?

Shallan was not dismissive of Jasnah's death as you mention. She was properly respectful when informing Dalinar and Navani, but you problem seems to be that she then went on to flirt with Adolin (in a separate conversation). I think it's rediculous of you to expect her to brood for months on end about someone she had only known for months, (I also find it rediculous that you think it is shallow of her to have stolen the fake Fabrial for "those reasons" when those reasons were litteraly to save her family from death and enslavement. I would probably kill to stop that from happening, much less steal.) and to not carry out what she had come to that party to do because of this. It didn't seem unrealistic to me at all, it would have actually been jarring if she had just brooded after coming to the party, it would be unnatural to have that character focus on Jasnah when that wasn't the focus of that scene really.

Kalladin wrongly likes Shallan. Kalladin only likes Shallan because he sees in her the kind of emptiness he feels. This does not come down to personability or how nice you think she is, it comes down to Kalladin feeling a kind ship with her because of shared experience. He also doesn't compare her to Tien because of her personality, but because of how she makes him feel better (due to the kinship of their shared experience, and her ability to be sunny despite the horrors she has seen).

Shallan in annoying. Agreed. But her annoyingness makes sense because it directly relates to her insanity. She remarks that she often makes jokes in the face of what she has been through because "it's what keeps her insane", or in other words it helps her distract herself from her problems (she does this to the point of litteraly blocking memories). It's a part of her character, but I understand not liking her as much as other characters because of this.

Its its just seems to me that you are very biased against Shallan. Especially after flat out saying that you don't like female PoVs ( can you elaborate, this actually sounded kind of offensive) it just seems to me that you don't like her because of her character, not because anything is actually wrong with her scenes.

1. What I said about "prideful, if not arrogant" might be stereotyping in one perspective. But it doesn't mean that what I said is wrong. After all, that is generally true for all the Highprinces; even Dalinar is proud. Continuing on...Jasnah's notes dismissed him as "obnoxious" and "useless". She didn't say "kind" or "generous". So, what made Shallan approach Sabariel was her own decision because she supposedly saw something in him. But I don't know what she saw in him, and I am not taken that she should risk so much just from "first impression analysis". As for Sabariel's mistress, sure, she could be kind. However, no matter how kind a person is, generally speaking, most women would always be hesitant to readily accept a young girl taken home by her husband. Most people would question, if not hate. However, this is supposed to be remedied by this quote "It isn't like you are the first one he has taken in." But, I simply wasn't persuaded because of not just one or two, but series of fortunate events that happened to Shallan after her interaction with Sebariel.

2. You're right in saying that Shallan hadn't known Jasnah for long. However, not only was Jasnah her teacher, she was also someone who Shallan spent the time with the most during her stay in Kharbranth. At one point, she even stated that she would really love to stay with Jasnah, instead of carrying out her duty. So, it's reasonable for me to assume that Shallan should feel attached to Jasnah. And if we continue from that, yes, it is shallow of Shallan to flirt in the next conversation after Jasnah is mentioned. I thought she would be hesitant, or at least express her guilt in the narration. Also, they didn't even talk about Jasnah's death when she conversed with Adolin, which I find very...odd.

3. Perhaps so. It's just that I don't get the same impression from it.

4. I don't find her character annoying in total. I just find her annoying when she retorts every sentence, and how she treated Kaladin, right after Kaladin helped Adolin in the duel.

Lastly, let me defend myself a little. It isn't that I dislike female PoVs because they are female PoVs. It's just I generally dislike how most writers depict female PoVs. For instance, in Wheel of Time, I'm sorry...this is my opinion so I hope it doesn't offend anyone...but, I felt that Robert Jordan was being sexist towards females, so I didn't like it. I wished he could be more fair toward the female characters. However, in Stormlight Archive, what I felt was the opposite. I felt that Brandon Sanderson was being a feminist that he overdid the female characters more than necessary. But, even without those two points... Back to my original point...most writers tend to write male emotions in the line of "rage", but female emotions in the line of "infatuation". For one, I like "mature love" so "infatuation" thing just doesn't work out for me. So, you can't blame for liking male PoVs more. It isn't that I am biased to female PoVs, it is just that I am forced to like male PoVs more because of the general trend.

But there exist also male PoVs being hopelessly infatuated, however, I just see them not as much among what I read in my life so far. And, I would avoid them too if possible.

----------------------------

@Maxal - I see...

This implies each time we are being told others are reacting in a given way towards Shallan, we aren't truly reading this individual's thoughts on Shallan: we are reading what Shallan thinks this person thinks of her."

That line made sense very much. I'm glad you pointed that out, and also about how the Ghostbloods might have perceived her. I suppose, I need to wait for more books to clamp down Shallan's character more.

As for Dalinar, I also believe he should love and hangout with Navani. But, it's just that what I think someone like him should fear are not included in the narration. So, I just find that odd. It's like...when I think he should be worried about his countrymen or the children's impression regarding his case with Navani, instead his worry is more focused on the morality of it. Then, when Navani pushed him, all of his worries just disappeared, and he went along. I thought...he would be or should be thinking hard about how to confront his sons and nephew. Well, he did confront Elhokar but that was hectic though.

And you are right that the diversity is a good thing. Perhaps, I am just reading too much into the characters. But, I daresay the whole Shallan situation is still odd.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Ariyar

Blightsong · August 25, 2016

I agree that WoT has terribly written female characters, but I don't see how Brandon overdid his female characters, they just seem like the other ones to me.

Do you dislike Brandon's characters because of this trend you saw in the being written as "infatuated"? I would say that the Male characters were much more immature in how they saw relationships then the female characters, specifically Adolin (this is kind of important to his character). This doesn't bug me, but if I had to say, this is much more present in the male characters of you series if this factors into how much you like various characters.

Ariyar · August 25, 2016

35 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

I agree that WoT has terribly written female characters, but I don't see how Brandon overdid his female characters, they just seem like the other ones to me.

Do you dislike Brandon's characters because of this trend you saw in the being written as "infatuated"? I would say that the Male characters were much more immature in how they saw relationships then the female characters, specifically Adolin (this is kind of important to his character). This doesn't bug me, but if I had to say, this is much more present in the male characters of you series if this factors into how much you like various characters.

No, I didn't feel weird with Shallan not because I saw the trend in her but because I found her character "overly achieved that it no longer makes sense".

As for Adolin, yes, he is emotional in that infatuation way. That was clearly written. But, what made me like his character was because he is kind and righteous, in contrast to the lighteyes we had seen so far. However, that wasn't all. There was an understanding between him and Kaladin. (distrust for valid reasons, and respect for what the other had done) When it came to Shallan, his infatuation turned into a genuine love. So, I found him mature. And, his character isn't overly achieved because he just did the possible things within his limit. Not to mention, he also screwed up a lot of things. All in all, I find his character quite reasonable.

But about Shallan, I just couldn't get a good impression because of all the things I had listed in my previous posts. [ Yes, I enjoyed her conversation with Jasnah...Pattern...Gaz and the others, but that was it. ]

Edited August 25, 2016 by Ariyar

maxal · August 25, 2016

34 minutes ago, Ariyar said:

If that is the case, I will give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion again.

1. What I said about "prideful, if not arrogant" might be stereotyping in one perspective. But it doesn't mean that what I said is wrong. After all, that is generally true for all the Highprinces; even Dalinar is proud. Continuing on...Jasnah's notes dismissed him as "obnoxious" and "useless". She didn't say "kind" or "generous". So, what made Shallan approach Sabariel was her own decision because she supposedly saw something in him. But I don't know what she saw in him, and I am not taken that she should risk so much just from "first impression analysis". As for Sabariel's mistress, sure, she could be kind. However, no matter how kind a person is, generally speaking, most women would always be hesitant to readily accept a young girl taken home by her husband. Most people would question, if not hate. However, this is supposed to be remedied by this quote "It isn't like you are the first one he has taken in." However, I simply wasn't persuaded because of not just one or two, but series of fortunate events that happened to Shallan after her interaction with Sebariel.

2. You're right in saying that Shallan hadn't known Jasnah for long. However, not only was Jasnah her teacher, she was also someone who Shallan spent the time with the most during her stay in Kharbranth. At one point, she even stated that she would really love to stay with Jasnah, instead of carrying out her duty. So, it's reasonable for me to assume that Shallan should feel attached to Jasnah. And if we continue from that, yes, it is shallow of Shallan to flirt in the next conversation after Jasnah is mentioned. I thought she would be hesitant, or at least express her guilt in the narration. Also, they didn't even talk about Jasnah's death when she conversed with Adolin, which I find very...odd.

3. Perhaps so. It's just that I don't get the same impression from it.

4. I don't find her character annoying in total. I just find her annoying when she retorts every sentence, and how she treated Kaladin, right after Kaladin helped Adolin in the duel.

Lastly, let me defend myself a little. It isn't that I dislike female PoVs because they are female PoVs. It's just I generally hate how most writers depict female PoVs. For instance, in Wheel of Time, I'm sorry...this is my opinion so I hope it doesn't offend anyone...but, I felt that Robert Jordan was being sexist towards females, so I didn't like it. I wished he could be more fair toward the female characters. However, in Stormlight Archive, what I felt was the opposite. I felt that Brandon Sanderson was being a feminist that he overdid the female characters more than necessary. But, even without those two points... Back to my original point...most writers tend male emotions in the line of "rage", but female emotions in the line of "infatuation". For one, I like "mature love" so "infatuation" thing just doesn't work out for me. So, you can't blame for liking male PoVs more. It isn't that I am biased to female PoVs, it is just that I am forced to like male PoVs more because of the general trend.

But there exist also male PoVs being hopelessly infatuated, however, I just see them not as much among what I read in my life so far. And, I would avoid them too if possible.

1. Shallan tried her gamble on Sebrarial because he was part of the neutral faction within the Highprinces. She didn't want to be seen favoring any side of the conflict as she didn't have any allies of her own: her strategy was to keep as many options open as possible. It didn't take a genius mastermind to gather there was three factions: Sadeas and his allies, the Kholins and the ones who tried to remain neutral. Among the neutral ones, Sebrarial illustrated himself by cleverly avoiding to take side. She thought someone so keen on playing both sides to his advantages would be more interested to buy into her bluff. As for Paloma, she doesn't take negatively to Shallan because she isn't seeing Shallan as a threat: be it because she is secure in her union or because she sees Shallan as a child doesn't matter. Not all women are jealous.

2. Shallan is more worried about herself than Jasnah at this point in time: she is a young girl with no leverage, no money, no allies, no friends, no house to back her up. All she has to hold onto is this casual with Prince Adolin she has no idea if the Kholins are going to be willing to maintain now Jasnah is dead. So yes, it may be she isn't giving Jasnah enough proper thoughts, but on a scale from one to ten of her worries, she sadly isn't that high. Also the reason she doesn't talk about Jasnah's death to Adolin was because it would have been improper. Diplomacy has it she should tell the Highprince and Brightness Navani first, not the handsome son of the Highprince. Besides, she does talk about it to Adolin: he offers to go tell the king in her place, but she refuses wanting to do it herself.

3. I agree with Blightsong: Kaladin likes Shallan only because he has deemed she suffered enough for him to consider her a worthy human being. It isn't even infatuation, it is a psychological transfer: for once he found someone as miserable as him it thus makes him love her or think he loves her. In any way, it was bizarre.

4. And how about Kaladin treated Adolin after he spent weeks in prison on his behalf? None of those characters are perfect and yes, they are often acting like the very young beings they are. Kaladin can be a resentful, bitter, plain unlikable jerk simply because he is annoyed other people's mood frame does not reflect his own. He also has a very hard time admitting he was wrong. Shallan can be annoyingly blind and dismissive simply because she is too stuck up in her own notes to observe others would rather wrestle a whitespine then spend one more moment with her. They all have flaws and while these flaws can sometimes make me want to throw them into a wall, I think want to read what will happen next.

On the subject of Dalinar, it is true he never wonders what his own sons may think of the union, but we should consider the fact others believe he should have remarry years ago. In other words, Dalinar is the odd one out for not having tried to find himself another wife: his sons feelings hardly matter when it comes to such things. I would also state Dalinar has been one to concern himself much more about Elhokar than his own sons. The fact he tells Elhokar right away is thus consistent with his character. In his bizarre emotional frame, Elhokar matters the most, he is the one he cherishes the most, then comes Renarin and finally Adolin, dead last. Not that he doesn't live his sons, it merely is he never concerned himself with their feelings, hence him dating Navani is not something he feels he should sit down and talk through with Adolin and Renarin. Renarin never says a thing and Adolin does as he is being told: Elhokar is the one he is concerned about.

I never got his worries disappeared, I understood he just... momentarily forget about his worries whenever she is with him. There is also the fact Dalinar is a man who makes the laws, who takes what he wants without any concern for his fellow countrymen... Our Dalinar is a very complex being and within his relationship with Navani, we can almost see young Dalinar fight with the old Dalinar.

We can never read too much into the characters.... It is interesting to dig into the reasons why we respond negatively to some characters.

21 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Do you dislike Brandon's characters because of this trend you saw in the being written as "infatuated"? I would say that the Male characters were much more immature in how they saw relationships then the female characters, specifically Adolin (this is kind of important to his character). This doesn't bug me, but if I had to say, this is much more present in the male characters of you series if this factors into how much you like various characters.

Doesn't bother me either because it is consistent with their story arc. Kaladin is always looking up for reasons to justify his own feelings and Adolin is an emotional yo-yo. Shallan has been taught to be mature from a young age while everything about Adolin retained him into an emotionally immature state.

When it comes to maturity, we do not all age at the same speed nor do we acquire maturity within all spheres of our development on the same day. Hence someone can be very mature about certain aspects of life and yet act like a child on others. There is no definite threshold.

1 minute ago, Ariyar said:

No, I didn't feel weird with Shallan not because I saw the trend in her but because I found her character "overly achieved that it no longer makes sense".

As for Adolin, yes, he is emotional in that infatuation way. That was clearly written. But, what made me like his character was because he is kind and righteous, in contrast to the lighteyes we had seen so far. However, that wasn't all. There was an understanding between him and Kaladin. (distrust for valid reasons, and respect for what the other had done) When it came to Shallan, his infatuation turned into a genuine love. So, I found him mature.

But about Shallan, I just couldn't get a good impression because of all the things I had listed in my previous posts. [ Yes, I enjoyed her conversation with Jasnah...Pattern...Gaz and the others, but that was it. ]

Shallan's achievements are an illusions: she thinks she is great and thus she conveys this feeling of greatness to us, the readers. It annoys several because they take it at face value thinking the author wrote her to be this Mary-Sue who can do not wrong, but this is false.

Shallan is bound to screw up in book 3. Big time. And I am keen on reading it

I can't blame you for liking Adolin here... though he is immature when it comes to relationships. Shallan got to him, oddly, strangely and unexpectedly: she got through his multiple walls. She drew out genuine Adolin and not the pretty poster boy he usually tries to be: it was very refreshing to him hence he fell for it. If the pattern maintains itself though, he should start getting cold feet... Ah well, he does. He says it right there towards the end of WoR: this is how Adolin screws it up. He is afraid, thus he ruins it. Purposefully if unconsciously.

Edited August 25, 2016 by maxal

Blightsong · August 25, 2016

I guess I just don't see what Shallan has accomplished as all that miraculous in the context of the story. Like I said, it's a matter of opinion. I've seen people say similar things about Kaladin's story arc.

I hope you check out Sanderson's other works, if you haven't heard of the Cosmere get ready for one hell of a ride.

+hwiles · August 25, 2016

Jeez, I don't know that there's much I can add to what @maxal said...Shallan is...complicated. but she represents an important flavor of madness (my favorite is grape!)

If you liked wheel of time then I'm guessing you appreciate the intellectual puzzle presented by a deranged hero (Rand weighs the pros and cons of killing everyone everywhere at one point for example...)

Shallan and Dallinar aren't Sanderson's strongest characters in my opinion. I'd definitely recommend trying the mistborn books. In a male dominated genre, vin is a truly refreshing strong female lead (in my biased male opinion)

Argel · August 25, 2016

I think it's important to keep in mind Shallan is furthest along as a KR out of the ones we see (except maybe Jasnah). 4th level IIRC (at the end of WoR). So it shouldn't be so surprising that she manages to wing it as well as she does.

Sebarial is avoiding politics and focusing on economics. If the desolation had not come, he would likely be dominating trade in the Shattered Plains within months to a year. He's actually more pragmatic than most of the highprinces. So he's to a certain extent a miser (typical trope for a merchant). I doubt what he's paying Shallan is as outrageous as he claims. Also, she is working for him, to at least partially earn that money (there's a scene where she mentions something about finishing up the bookkeeping for him). And there is the snubbing-the-other-highprinces factor. Also don't forget that Sebarial asks Shallaon about Adolin (and not in front of everyone like the not-too-savvy highprinces -- he does it later on while they are riding back to his place, showing he's smarter than others give him credit for). He's also now on Dalinar's good side (joined the expedition, saved Roion’s army [and once again showing he's smarter than given credit for]). And with Sadeas dead, Dalinar appears to be coming out on top in the power struggle (granted, that could quickly change, but for now...). So overall, his ties to Shallan have generally worked in his favor.

Regarding the Ghostbloods, if they knew at that time she could remember all of their faces, I doubt she would have left that first meeting. It was probably one of the biggest risks she took. It may be worth asking if she has a certain amount of luck, because she does seem to have a knack for survival, at least when it really counts. I also do not think it hurt that she portrayed herself as a scholar and was able to answer some scholarly questions (e.g. the one about blowguns). I suspect the Ghostbloods are much more open to someone with those credentials and why she left alive (i.e. they decided she might be worth recruiting). We know so little about the Ghostbloods though, so it's hard to say what their motives really are. Gavilar thought they may have sent the assassin, which considering all the stuff he was involved in tells us practically nothing. If Mraize is to be believed Jasnah sent assassins after them first. That's a big "if" though, but that once again it leaves us high and dry (especially if Jasnah sent the first assassin) The only other piece of information we have (beyond the obvious -- e.g. assassins within their midst) is at least some of them are world hoppers. Which yet again fails to tell us much. They are one big RAFO!

Regarding WoT, it's a misandric (loosely, sexist against men) society. I agree the female characters could have been written better, but I think part of the annoyance with them comes from the inherent misandry of their society. I actually think Robert Jordan's approach here was spot on, because he avoids ever coming out and saying it, but just let's it pervade the world as it would and writes it that way. But it's more subtle and not everyone picks up on it.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Argel

Ariyar · August 25, 2016

With the amount of replies given here, my initial curiosity is sated. I could see Dalinar's character wasn't as weird as I originally thought, considering his focus is on Elhokar and morals, rather than his sons. Besides, in the story, his ravings during Highstorm would be worse of a gossip than the scandal with Navani. So, his character...after much reflection seems fine to me, though I still wish he would be more.

As for Shallan, even though Maxal had explained to me that I might be misled by Shallan's narrative, since her vision of how she is perceived is mostly lies, I suppose I should wait for more books to see what happens to her. However, from what is written about her so far, I still feel that she is too "perfect" in term of her interaction with the other characters. The only thing my feeling for her might be remedied is if she is outmaneuvered or misunderstood by other characters, since so far, her EQ is too high/unrealistic that she can seemingly get out of any problem with just "talk" alone.

Oh. The last thing about Shallan that I felt her out of character was how she let everyone know about Pattern. Sure, they heard Pattern hiss, but she could have pretended to be ignorant, and let him distance himself from her for a while, then sneak back later when everyone was no longer paranoid. That could have benefited her more, and it would also be in character, since she supposedly has such a calculating nature. But, that just didn't happen.

----------------------------
@Maxal

Perhaps, what made me weird about Shallan in regard to Adolin, was because Adolin also didn't initiate the conversation of Jasnah's death. I mean, Jasnah is the sister to the King, and also his cousin, surely he could have put more effort in asking Shallan about her, instead of immediately courting her. It would have been reasonable if he was confused or sad about Jasnah. However, since he never initiated the conversation in such a way, Shallan also didn't talk about it. So, maybe, when it concerns to Jasnah, I feel weird from both Adolin and Shallan, feeling that they are out of their characters in that specific scene. However, I don't talk as bad of Adolin, since that is the only time I felt he was out of character. As for Shallan, there were also other scenes, so my view toward her is worse.

As for how Kaladin perceived Adolin even after what the latter did for him in prison, I didn't think badly of Kaladin, because we all know that he had suffered much from light eyes and we can't fault him for misjudging Adolin. But, even in his distorted perspective, he still had a mild understanding/appreciation toward Adolin and Adolin to him, perhaps that was why I didn't feel the need to blame him.

But when it concerned to Shallan, I didn't really read anything about her gratitude toward Kaladin for what he had done for Adolin in the duel. Instead, I only read how much she finds him annoying. In Kaladin's perspective, he always found her unbearable or dangerous, but he never disliked her. If anything, he repeatedly narrated that Adolin and Shallan were perhaps the best couple in the light eye standard. So, you can see the reason for my ire, to her actions and thoughts in general. Yes, she acted better to Kaladin when the chasm event was ending, but instead her "biased judgement" switched from Kaladin to Adolin, and she began to find faults in him and comparing him to Kaladin, when I don't even think Adolin was at fault for those. Like, "Let me protect you." thing. Yes, I know about the trauma she suffered from her dad, but still, that was unreasonable of her.

@Argel

You're right about Sebariel being an outstanding merchant, and a politically neutral person. But, even still, there really isn't anything Shallan could offer to him. If Sebariel was offended at how Shallan treated him, and they had an arguement, but Shallan convinced him that she was a worthy investment - a tie to House Kholin, a knowledgeable scholar, a capable clerk, and much of all, enthusiasm to help strengthen Sebariel's faction. <= I would have been bought in. However, there was no such thing. If anything, it appeared to me Shallan was being haughty in how she treated Sebariel, and Sebariel just allowed her to be so without any sort of repercussion. Not just Sebariel, her mistress Palona was the same. What I mean is... Yes, Shallan is worthy of Sebariel's investment, but she didn't convince him. It just happened. That was what I found unnatural. Being an art teacher in real life, I have interacted with many other people, but I have never seen a powerful/wealthy person perform such a charitable act on some stranger, who even manipulated him. It could be curiosity, but really? I feel "curiosity" as an excuse, rather than a reason in this case. That was what I felt about the entire event of Shallan-Sebariel-Palona.

@hwiles

Quote

I'm guessing you appreciate the intellectual puzzle presented by a deranged hero

I suppose I am like that. Please tell me anything that is similar? But, someone more inherently good than bad if possible. I found "Prince of Thorns" to be similar to Rand/Kaladin in this aspect, but after a few peeks, even though it was a really good story, I felt overly exhausted. It was just too dark for me.

Quote

In a male dominated genre, vin is a truly refreshing strong female lead (in my biased male opinion)

Just curious, in which way are you "biased"?

@Blightsong

Most people have been suggesting that I read Mistborn, and that I will surely read. But, what other novels from Brandon Sanderson would you recommend? In what order?

Edited August 25, 2016 by Ariyar

Argel · August 25, 2016

1 hour ago, Ariyar said:

Yes, Shallan is worthy of Sebariel's investment, but she didn't convince him. It just happened. That was what I found unnatural.

It was a bit unnatural -- she used her latent KR Lightweaver powers to enhance herself. Sebarial notices something afterwards:

Quote

“You look younger. In there, I would have guessed you were twenty, maybe twenty-five. But now I see that you can’t be older than fourteen.” “I am seventeen,” Shallan said dryly. “Same difference.” Sebarial grunted. “I could have sworn your dress was more vibrant before, your features sharper, prettier . . . Must have been the light.”

Much like with the deserters and that big battle on the way to the shattered plains. She has also been trying to practice what Jasnah taught her, plus Tyn was training her on the art of the con. Taken together, it's not a surprise that she managed to pull it off (if just barely).

Also, she's from Jah Kaved, which borders Herdaz, and has more mixed blood because of it, hence her red hair. Palona is Herdazian and Little Herdaz (where Kaladin hid Elokhar near the end of WoR) is in Sebarial's warcamp. So I don't think it's a surprise they take a liking to her. Plus there's this:

Quote

“Do you always make a habit of insulting the looks of young ladies?” Shallan asked. “Or is it only after you drool in front of them?” He grinned. “You weren’t trained in the court, obviously. I like that.

And it was a politically savvy move given she is betrothed to Adolin. Let's not kid ourselves -- highprinces have to deal with politics like it or not, so we shouldn't overlook this.

Regarding Jasnah, the prevailing assumption was she was dead. Shallan was severely delayed making it to the Shattered Plains, so it wasn't shocking news -- it was somewhat expected. Plus, hormones... Pretty obvious where Adolin's mind was, but let's also be fair here -- she is his betrothed, whom he's meeting for the first time, and first impressions are positive. Also, talking about Jasnah's death at their first meeting....

@maxal Regarding who Dalinar favors the most. I would not say it that way. I would go more with who he thinks needs his help the most -- Elohkar, Renarin, then Adolin. He's harder on Adolin, that's true, but Adolin is the one able to stand on his own two feet the most. He can fight and Dalinar has been grooming him to lead (I'm thinking the military forces here, but he will take over as highprince eventually too).

Edited August 25, 2016 by Argel

+hwiles · August 26, 2016

6 hours ago, Ariyar said:

@hwiles

Hide contents

I suppose I am like that. Please tell me anything that is similar? But, someone more inherently good than bad if possible. I found "Prince of Thorns" to be similar to Rand/Kaladin in this aspect, but after a few peeks, even though it was a really good story, I felt overly exhausted. It was just too dark for me.

Just curious, in which way are you "biased"?

To your first point:

1. Kelsier of the mistborn trilogy. He walks the fine line of the unrepentant murdererous anti-hero and nurturing mentor visionary with deeply good intentions. A favorite of many readers.

2. Vasher of Warbreaker. Without getting into spoilers, I can say Vasher is my favorite character in the cosmere, even though warbreaker was my least favorite book. It's a gamble, I won't promise you'll like it, but I'm confident you'll at least like Vasher. He's a believable, tortured, antisocial monster with a heart of gold.

3. Totally unrelated to Sanderson...but Dorrin of the Saga of Recluse. It's been a good decade since I put the series down, but iirc, he was the nerdy wizard engineer who was bullied and pushed too far until...well, RAFO

To your second point, I judge female characters through a lens colored by an overwhelming majority of male heroes in fantasy novels. I'm not apologetic for this fact, it's hardly my fault, but I do try to be aware of it and point it out to others when appropriate. It's hard for me to say if Vin is a "good" female main character because historically we havent seen a lot of women well represented in the genre. This isn't a unique discrepancy, many groups have been under-represented. This response was probably more wordy than it needed to be...basically, Vin is a good character, but I leave whether or not she's a good "female lead character," for the fantasy scholars to decide. A subtle distinction, but one that is occasionally illuminating to recall.

Tldr; diversity in fantasy is a good thing. If you disagree (which is okay), you probably just haven't read enough books yet.

maxal · August 26, 2016

9 hours ago, Argel said:

I think it's important to keep in mind Shallan is furthest along as a KR out of the ones we see (except maybe Jasnah). 4th level IIRC (at the end of WoR). So it shouldn't be so surprising that she manages to wing it as well as she does.

Brandon once confirmed Shallan was the most advance Radiant we have currently met. I assume this includes Jasnah. I however have a different take on several readers perception of Shallan's successes. I get the feeling her "happy-go-lucky" streak of wins is nothing more than a combination of beginners luck and incomplete story arcs. Oce we get the whole story, she may not carry on the same vibe.

6 hours ago, Ariyar said:

With the amount of replies given here, my initial curiosity is sated. I could see Dalinar's character wasn't as weird as I originally thought, considering his focus is on Elhokar and morals, rather than his sons. Besides, in the story, his ravings during Highstorm would be worse of a gossip than the scandal with Navani. So, his character...after much reflection seems fine to me, though I still wish he would be more.

As for Shallan, even though Maxal had explained to me that I might be misled by Shallan's narrative, since her vision of how she is perceived is mostly lies, I suppose I should wait for more books to see what happens to her. However, from what is written about her so far, I still feel that she is too "perfect" in term of her interaction with the other characters. The only thing my feeling for her might be remedied is if she is outmaneuvered or misunderstood by other characters, since so far, her EQ is too high/unrealistic that she can seemingly get out of any problem with just "talk" alone.

Oh. The last thing about Shallan that I felt her out of character was how she let everyone know about Pattern. Sure, they heard Pattern hiss, but she could have pretended to be ignorant, and let him distance himself from her for a while, then sneak back later when everyone was no longer paranoid. That could have benefited her more, and it would also be in character, since she supposedly has such a calculating nature. But, that just didn't happen.

----------------------------
@Maxal

Hide contents

Perhaps, what made me weird about Shallan in regard to Adolin, was because Adolin also didn't initiate the conversation of Jasnah's death. I mean, Jasnah is the sister to the King, and also his cousin, surely he could have put more effort in asking Shallan about her, instead of immediately courting her. It would have been reasonable if he was confused or sad about Jasnah. However, since he never initiated the conversation in such a way, Shallan also didn't talk about it. So, maybe, when it concerns to Jasnah, I feel weird from both Adolin and Shallan, feeling that they are out of their characters in that specific scene. However, I don't talk as bad of Adolin, since that is the only time I felt he was out of character. As for Shallan, there were also other scenes, so my view toward her is worse.

As for how Kaladin perceived Adolin even after what the latter did for him in prison, I didn't think badly of Kaladin, because we all know that he had suffered much from light eyes and we can't fault him for misjudging Adolin. But, even in his distorted perspective, he still had a mild understanding/appreciation toward Adolin and Adolin to him, perhaps that was why I didn't feel the need to blame him.

But when it concerned to Shallan, I didn't really read anything about her gratitude toward Kaladin for what he had done for Adolin in the duel. Instead, I only read how much she finds him annoying. In Kaladin's perspective, he always found her unbearable or dangerous, but he never disliked her. If anything, he repeatedly narrated that Adolin and Shallan were perhaps the best couple in the light eye standard. So, you can see the reason for my ire, to her actions and thoughts in general. Yes, she acted better to Kaladin when the chasm event was ending, but instead her "biased judgement" switched from Kaladin to Adolin, and she began to find faults in him and comparing him to Kaladin, when I don't even think Adolin was at fault for those. Like, "Let me protect you." thing. Yes, I know about the trauma she suffered from her dad, but still, that was unreasonable of her.

Dalinar is the focus character of the next book which means many of his actions are going to make more sense after we read his backstory. He carries a huge baggage which shaped him in ways we have yet to discover.

On Shallan, I'd say we are working with an incomplete character who's story has yet to be completed. Unlike Kaladin, her story arc did not end in a massive climax and a great revelation: it ended up on her finding out she has been outplayed by the Ghostbloods. They are one step ahead of her and only a fool would think her family is safe because Mraize has gotten his hand on them. So far, her plan to secure her family's future was to marry Adolin knowing the alliance to a rich and powerful house would ensure her house's survival. Unfortunately, while she has managed to win his interest, she has been lying to him, using him as leverage for her personal agenda. She has been playing the game, not carrying what it may do to his heart. Already, we see it has started to crumble apart. Why? Because Shallan has not been willing to assess Adolin's feelings over her becoming a Radiant: her take was to treat it as if it never happened. Forgetting. Ignoring. Not dealing with it, but Adolin is not her. He needs to deal with things and considering his main issues lie with external relationships, it is bond to push all of his insecurities to the front row.

So Shallan is not perfect: her story was written in order to make her appear perfect, but in the end we see it was all but... a veil.

The Pattern reveal though was slightly out of character... She has been so keen on keeping her identity secret, her sudden lack of concern about it was puzzling. Personally, I put it on stress: she was stressed out in trying to unlock the Oathgate, she forgot she was supposed to be meek and secretive. It may have been the real Shallan was saw right here.

About Adolin and Jasnah, we have to ask ourselves if they even have a... relationship. Jasnah is more than a decade older than Adolin and she has spend the major part of the last years being away which means, the last time she was a permanent full member of their family, Adolin was nothing more than a child. He also probably isn't the kind of person she is genuinely drawn to: little Adolin most probably was an energetic kid, bouncing around slaying invisible foes and having little interest for in-depth philosophical discussions, preferring tales of combat. Her endeavor to casually engaged Shallan with Adolin were pure machination she was willing to conduct in order to secure an advantage for her family: not once did she wonder about how Adolin may feel about it. It'd thus say the cousins aren't particularly close which means Adolin's apparent lack of interest is merely tied to the fact he isn't emotionally attached to Jasnah, cousin or not. I'd point out here he was worried about her, at some point within his POV, but it didn't pan out in anything deeper. Hence, the fact young Adolin may be more anxious on meeting his future wife as opposed to talking about a cousin he hardly knew death.

It is true Shallan never expressed gratitude towards Kaladin for saving Adolin in the duel. Why? I think she was too settled on her own fault in it to truly appreciate what he did. And yes, it was wrong of her to hold it against Adolin for wanting to protect her from falling down in a chasm and having to fight single-handily a massive chasmfiend and while her past does make it understandable, it doesn't make it justifiable. Just as Kaladin's reaction towards Adolin is understandable, but not justifiable. Having had a hard past does not give you a free pass to being a jerk towards the people trying to be nice to you: this is true for both Shallan and Kaladin. They are both being unreasonable, at times.

Argel · August 26, 2016

15 hours ago, maxal said:

The Pattern reveal though was slightly out of character... She has been so keen on keeping her identity secret, her sudden lack of concern about it was puzzling. Personally, I put it on stress: she was stressed out in trying to unlock the Oathgate, she forgot she was supposed to be meek and secretive. It may have been the real Shallan was saw right here.

She wasn't given a choice:

Quote

Shallan would have preferred to keep Pattern secret, but when the winds had started picking up, he’d started buzzing loudly. There was no avoiding it now that he’d drawn the scholars’ attention. WoR (p. 982). Kindle Edition

15 hours ago, maxal said:

And yes, it was wrong of her to hold it against Adolin for wanting to protect her from falling down in a chasm and having to fight single-handily a massive chasmfiend and while her past does make it understandable, it doesn't make it justifiable.

So? It's more than understandable. That's just one of those relationship things that getting to know each better will take care of. I don't know why people keep focusing on this -- it's an easy one to deal with, and later on we see that Adolin has already picked up on it anyway.

15 hours ago, maxal said:

It is true Shallan never expressed gratitude towards Kaladin for saving Adolin in the duel. Why? I think she was too settled on her own fault in it to truly appreciate what he did.

She may have also been more heavily focused on Adolin and/or Renarin (she did send Pattern to help him after all). And Kaladin was arrested right afterwards. It may have also happened off-screen. I mean, we know Kaladin would say it was nothing really.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Argel

maxal · August 27, 2016

5 hours ago, Argel said:

She wasn't given a choice:

So? It's more than understandable. That's just one of those relationship things that getting to know each better will take care of. I don't know why people keep focusing on this -- it's an easy one to deal with, and later on we see that Adolin has already picked up on it anyway.

She may have also been more heavily focused on Adolin and/or Renarin (she did send Pattern to help him after all). And Kaladin was arrested right afterwards. It may have also happened off-screen. I mean, we know Kaladin would say it was nothing really.

Fair point about Pattern: I had forgotten about this quote all together.

I meant to draw the difference in between what is understandable and what is justifiable. It is understandable Shallan would react badly to Adolin's words, but her snapping at him for it in such way wasn't justifiable. Why? Because he wasn't being threatening, he was being kind and he was trying to be comprehensive. He misunderstood her needs and the fact she was mistreated doesn't give her the right to mistreat others in return. In other words past trauma isn't an excuse for bad present behavior.

This being said, I think people focus on it because it gives an argument against Adolin/Shallan which is the least popular ship.

It makes sense she didn't focus so much on Kaladin during the duel. Sadeas who has proven to be a keen observer wasn't able to appreciate Kaladin's contribution which made me believe his role wasn't so obvious. We, the readers, know the extend of Kaladin's contribution which are amplify by us knowing the risk he took and what it meant for him, as a person, but the spectators aren't privy to this information, thus they under play his role. It may thus be you are right and Shallan merely didn't pay any attention towards Kaladin.

You are also right in saying Kaladin didn't save Adolin to get people tell him how great he was: he did it because it was right.

Argel · August 27, 2016

14 hours ago, maxal said:

It is understandable Shallan would react badly to Adolin's words, but her snapping at him for it in such way wasn't justifiable.

14 hours ago, maxal said:

This being said, I think people focus on it because it gives an argument against Adolin/Shallan which is the least popular ship.

Yeah, not justifiable, but people have quirks, things that push their buttons, etc. All of which are figured out while getting to know someone better. As I mentioned, Adolin has already picked up on it thanks to that event, so as far as Ia m concerned, they have already moved past it. It could come up again, they could also talk about her father, etc. If Adolin had not picked up on it or reacted to to it very badly I could see a case being made, but we see later on that Adolin has picked up on it, so it's not a big deal right now, and I have a hard time seeing how it could lead to a split because of that. These kinds of things happen in relationships all the time. If Adolin had not picked up on it, then I could see it as being relevant, but the whole she's a KR/hes not thing is likely going to be the biggest hurdle (with the murder possibly eclipsing it)

Now that you mention what the audience saw, there were also other distractions, such as checkign to see what Dalinar, Elokhar, Sadeas, Amaram, the judge/referee of the match were doing. I could see where Shallan might be glancing around at other things as well. And definitely focusing on her betrothed and his brother, and we know how Shallan feels about family. We also had the advantage of the mutliple zoomed in cameras. No closeups for the audience.

I'm leaning towards Shallan was a bit preoccupied. She may have even been considering doing something more drastic with illusions than just sending Pattern in -- we don't really get a lot of info for her as the duel progresses beyond her sending Pattern.

Of course if she missed it at the time, she would have learned about it later because Dalinar and Adolin certainly did not miss it, and she would obviously know about Adolin's self-imposed imprisonment. But there's just a lot we do not see afterwards.

As a side note: Adolin demonstrates a lot of loyalty to Kaladin here, which Shallan would appreciate. At the risk of derailign the thread, one way she could accept the murder is Adolin did it to protect his father/family, something Shallan can relate to.

This may be too Wheel of Time-ish, but I could see an Aes Sedai + Warder type arrangement between Shallan and Adolin.

Anyway, I think I'm slightly favoring the Shallan + Adolin ship.

I think Jasnah would be too much for Kaladin to put up with, unless she lets her guard down and let's him see the real Jasnah. So, what about Kaladin and Eshonai? Renarain's also a wildcard for shipping....

maxal · August 27, 2016

37 minutes ago, Argel said:

Yeah, not justifiable, but people have quirks, things that push their buttons, etc. All of which are figured out while getting to know someone better. As I mentioned, Adolin has already picked up on it thanks to that event, so as far as Ia m concerned, they have already moved past it. It could come up again, they could also talk about her father, etc. If Adolin had not picked up on it or reacted to to it very badly I could see a case being made, but we see later on that Adolin has picked up on it, so it's not a big deal right now, and I have a hard time seeing how it could lead to a split because of that. These kinds of things happen in relationships all the time. If Adolin had not picked up on it, then I could see it as being relevant, but the whole she's a KR/hes not thing is likely going to be the biggest hurdle (with the murder possibly eclipsing it)

Now that you mention what the audience saw, there were also other distractions, such as checkign to see what Dalinar, Elokhar, Sadeas, Amaram, the judge/referee of the match were doing. I could see where Shallan might be glancing around at other things as well. And definitely focusing on her betrothed and his brother, and we know how Shallan feels about family. We also had the advantage of the mutliple zoomed in cameras. No closeups for the audience.

I'm leaning towards Shallan was a bit preoccupied. She may have even been considering doing something more drastic with illusions than just sending Pattern in -- we don't really get a lot of info for her as the duel progresses beyond her sending Pattern.

Of course if she missed it at the time, she would have learned about it later because Dalinar and Adolin certainly did not miss it, and she would obviously know about Adolin's self-imposed imprisonment. But there's just a lot we do not see afterwards.

As a side note: Adolin demonstrates a lot of loyalty to Kaladin here, which Shallan would appreciate. At the risk of derailign the thread, one way she could accept the murder is Adolin did it to protect his father/family, something Shallan can relate to.

This may be too Wheel of Time-ish, but I could see an Aes Sedai + Warder type arrangement between Shallan and Adolin.

Anyway, I think I'm slightly favoring the Shallan + Adolin ship.

I think Jasnah would be too much for Kaladin to put up with, unless she lets her guard down and let's him see the real Jasnah. So, what about Kaladin and Eshonai? Renarain's also a wildcard for shipping....

Quirks are understandable, it doesn't make them right. Shallan was wrong to snap at Adolin without explaining him why. She was wrong to hold against him a very classic behavior on the fault of her trauma which he is completely unaware of. Poor Adolin who already has a hard time with relationships, in general, is now forced to walk on eggs around Shallan because she refuses to give him even the slightest clue about her past.

Of course, it is highly understandable, just wrong of her to behave this way with him. Still, I don't personally see it as a deal breaker, not yet. Yes Adolin understood and is bond to not do the mistake again, but Adolin has also been known to do what people expect or ask him to do. It has been my main cause of problems with the shipping discussion: nobody takes the time to wonder what it means for Adolin: it is all about Shallan and Kaladin, either together or not as if Adolin wasn't a character worth exploring. Everyone in SA is considered more interesting than Adolin... and it saddens me.

Shallan does see the imprisonment, but she mostly see Kaladin acting like a jerk towards Adolin obviously trying to be nice to him. At this point in time, while she likely, internally, acknowledge Kaladin has saved Adolin's life, she also considers his efforts were rewarded enough and it is his time to mellow down. So maybe if Kaladin had been nicer, she would have felt inclined to thank him, but Kaladin purposefully insulted Adolin, trying to make him appear dumb in front of Shallan.

I can see the analogy in between the Aes Sedai/Warder and Shallan/Adolin, but I somehow do not like it so much. Professional deformation obliged, I'd wish for Adolin to find a more worthy role than merely standing tall, stoic and not talking being a great Aes Sedai who does all the work.

I don't think Jasnah and Kaladin would work: she is everything he hates about lighteyed. She is cold, dismissive, privilege in ways he'll never be able to accept. Really, the only reason so many people ship them together is because she is a smart scholar and many readers have decided Kaladin was highly intelligent. I honestly can't see those two working out: they just don't fit, but if the author wants them to fit, then huh he'll make them fit, so we'll RAFO on that one.

Argel · August 28, 2016

23 hours ago, maxal said:

nobody takes the time to wonder what it means for Adolin

I think I focus on the others more because the betrothal is in place, and I'm just used to the idea of the guy courting the girl. That, and I guess I think they could make it work, so the question becomes why it might not work out. Adolin's not a scholar, but he's not an idiot either. He's fairly quick to pick up on things. I think they could definitely complement each other. Loosely, I kind of think of them as a fighter+mage duo, which could be powerful combo.

23 hours ago, maxal said:

I'd wish for Adolin to find a more worthy role than merely standing tall, stoic and not talking being a great Aes Sedai who does all the work

Wheel of Time Spoilers

Spoiler

I was thinking more along the lines of Siuan/Gareth and Nynaeve/Lan (felt more like real relationships) than say Egwene/Gawyn (felt more like infatuation). Edit: also Adolin doesn't care for politics that much and no one expects Shallan to become good tactician, so they could complement each other.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Argel
food->good

Ariyar · August 28, 2016

@hwiles

On 8/26/2016 at 8:37 AM, hwiles said:

To your first point:

1. Kelsier of the mistborn trilogy. He walks the fine line of the unrepentant murderous anti-hero and nurturing mentor visionary with deeply good intentions. A favorite of many readers.

2. Vasher of Warbreaker. Without getting into spoilers, I can say Vasher is my favorite character in the cosmere, even though warbreaker was my least favorite book. It's a gamble, I won't promise you'll like it, but I'm confident you'll at least like Vasher. He's a believable, tortured, antisocial monster with a heart of gold.

3. Totally unrelated to Sanderson...but Dorrin of the Saga of Recluse. It's been a good decade since I put the series down, but iirc, he was the nerdy wizard engineer who was bullied and pushed too far until...well, RAFO

To your second point, I judge female characters through a lens colored by an overwhelming majority of male heroes in fantasy novels. I'm not apologetic for this fact, it's hardly my fault, but I do try to be aware of it and point it out to others when appropriate. It's hard for me to say if Vin is a "good" female main character because historically we havent seen a lot of women well represented in the genre. This isn't a unique discrepancy, many groups have been under-represented. This response was probably more wordy than it needed to be...basically, Vin is a good character, but I leave whether or not she's a good "female lead character," for the fantasy scholars to decide. A subtle distinction, but one that is occasionally illuminating to recall.

Tldr; diversity in fantasy is a good thing. If you disagree (which is okay), you probably just haven't read enough books yet.

Thank you for your kind reply. I will try to read Mistborn first, then Warbreaker. As for the Saga of Recluse, I am not sure if I like an engineer protagonist, but I will note it down and check it out later when I can.

I see. At least, if she's as you say "a truly refreshing strong female lead" even from your male biased view , perhaps I shouldn't be so wary about it, and just read.

I don't know where the conversation flowed, but I will try to reply to both of you.

@Argel @maxal

I wasn't talking about Sebariel accepting Shallan before the other Highprinces, because if I were him, I too would refrain from calling out Shallan partly because of curiosity and partly because she's a good tie to House Kholin. However, after they are in carriage/palanquin, Shallan's illusion had already worn off. So, he should no longer be under a false impression. That was the perfect time for Sebariel to question Shallan and to bargain with her to his heart's content. After making such a scene in the court, Shallan wouldn't be able to reject him, because he could easily expose her lies and make her lose credentials in the eyes of other Highprinces. At this exact point, Shallan was very vulnerable. That was when I expected Sebariel, as a Highprince, to strike and push Shallan to her limit. He had every right and every chance to do so.

However, he just accepted her like a charitable, gentlemanly magnate. That was what made me feel extremely weird, because it didn't make sense. Besides, it also didn't make sense that Shallan would take that *overly kind gesture for granted. She should have been wary, at least in her narration. But, she wasn't. She only made supposedly witty retorts, and they just decided to move on happily ever after, without even clarifying/confirming each other's agenda. There wasn't any politic maneuver. There was only Shallan trying to be witty for the purpose of wanting to be witty. I don't even- Sighs.

Shallan might be the most advanced Knight Radiant, in term of knowledge over the power she has. However, in term of the practical progress, I daresay Kaladin had progressed much more, after his confrontation with Szeth. Moreover, Shallan still need to "draw" to control her power, which means she is by far the most limited. So, I don't buy that Shallan makes everything easy because of her capability as a Knight Radiant. But if you say that it is specifically because she's a light-weaver, I might be inclined to nod my head a little more, but still not so much. Regardless, we shall see more about her character in the future books, so I will just stand my ground.

As far as the pattern thing goes, I was very aware of this part:

Quote

Shallan would have preferred to keep Pattern secret, but when the winds had started picking up, he’d started buzzing loudly. There was no avoiding it now that he’d drawn the scholars’ attention. WoR (p. 982). Kindle Edition

However, my point still stands. She could have feigned ignorance by acting just as shocked as the other scholars, or just directed Pattern to vanish out of their sight when the spren had calmed down. Admitting that she is well-acquainted with Pattern and repeatedly insisting that he was not a voidspren was not a smart move, for her to lay low, if she was as intellectual as her character was written to be.

I doubt it is impossible that Shallan merely didn't pay attention to Kaladin, especially when he was making such a huge scene by confronting the shardbearers left and right, and even announcing his challenge to Amaram. Most of all, I doubt it is impossible for Shallan to miss Kaladin saving and covering Adolin if she's indeed focused on Adolin. Afterall, she couldn't be narrating: Adolin is in danger!!! Who was it that saved him??? Argh, I don't care!!! I should just focus on Adolin!!! || Could it? No, right? Because, she should be analyzing the duel-ground very carefully, all the while contemplating when to use her light-weavings.

About justifying Kaladin or Shallan...you can't just cross both of them out, saying that they are both unreasonable. The real reason why I liked Kaladin over Shallan was that even when Kaladin's view was overly distorted, he thought kindly and acted in consideration of others. However, Shallan did not. Her narrations are one-dimensional, and she didn't have a dual analysis of other people's both good and bad points. She changed her viewpoint on Kaladin later, but like I said, at the risk of changing her viewpoint of Adolin. She just didn't consider both the good and bad things about the two guys.

Eshonai and Kaladin/Adolin would never match, unless the warrior woman had survived and undid the brainwashing. As things are now, they have a minimal chance of getting to know each other. But I did wonder if Eshonai is a potential love interest for Dalinar at one point, though.

But Renarin? Haha, he's a good kid and a potential candidate. But would Brandon be so daring in that aspect? Not sure! ...if he is though, it could be interesting. xD

Oh. About Dalinar, there was something that I forgot to expand - "Well, he did confront Elhokar but that was hectic though." What I meant back then was... The confrontation was supposed to show Dalinar's affection, however, I really disliked that he didn't try to win Elhokar's understanding or approval to his relationship with Navani. Instead, it seems to me that he just took advantage of the boy's vulnerability, and pushed/scared him into accepting it, despite it being a completely unrelated matter. Although somewhat understandable, that was still...rather selfish of him. :/ I really hope that Kaladin could help Elhokar become wiser and stronger (mentally) in the future books, even if it means standing up to and going against Dalinar. :>

As for the Aes Sedai x Warder relationship, I hope it isn't like that. In Stormlight Archive, men are pretty much illiterate/unscholarly if you just remove their glyph knowledge. So, if you also add the Aes Sedai x Warder relationship here, all of the male characters will become "all brawn and no brains", which I definitely don't want. Let them be smart, and self-reliant.

Also...no need to worry about derailing the topic, I wanted to express my thoughts on the characters, and wished others to do the same. So, you guys are right on topic.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Ariyar

Argel · August 30, 2016

On 8/28/2016 at 6:20 PM, Ariyar said:

That was when I expected Sebariel, as a Highprince, to strike and push Shallan to her limit. He had every right and every chance to do so.

And he might say it's just too much hassle to deal with. Plus, it just does not appear to be his style. Also, Palona is Herdazian and Shallan has Herdazian ancestors. That may just be a soft spot for him. It would have been interesting to see how things played out if she was not part Herdazian and not from Jah Kaved. Or see what his POV was on it.

On 8/28/2016 at 6:20 PM, Ariyar said:

However, he just accepted her like a charitable, gentlemanly magnate. That was what made me feel extremely weird, because it didn't make sense.

Think of it this way -- he gets to remain neutral in the Sadeas vs. Dalinar polical war but now has an avenue to build ties to the Kohlin family outside of it. From that perspective, she's a low risk, long term investment who also works as a clerk for him.

On 8/28/2016 at 6:20 PM, Ariyar said:

Besides, it also didn't make sense that Shallan would take that *overly kind gesture for granted. She should have been wary, at least in her narration. But, she wasn't. She only made supposedly witty retorts, and they just decided to move on happily ever after, without even clarifying/confirming each other's agenda. There wasn't any politic maneuver. There was only Shallan trying to be witty for the purpose of wanting to be witty. I don't even- Sighs.

Except Sebarial is never portrayed as playing the political game, and Shallan doesn't come accross that way either. I think they both had enough of an understanding on that point to avoid being too way. Note though that Sebarial did probe her with a few questions (e.g. about Adolin). He also doesn't need to do that on that trip and probabyl expects Palona to keep an eye on her.

There's also the possibility he knows more about what's going on. I think it's a long shot, but the "trick of the light" comment could have deeper meaning.

On 8/28/2016 at 6:20 PM, Ariyar said:

However, my point still stands. She could have feigned ignorance by acting just as shocked as the other scholars, or just directed Pattern to vanish out of their sight when the spren had calmed down. Admitting that she is well-acquainted with Pattern and repeatedly insisting that he was not a voidspren was not a smart move, for her to lay low, if she was as intellectual as her character was written to be.

I think the implication was Pattern was too frightened to be easy to order around, and Shallan was under too much pressure (you know, saving the expedition from certain death) to make pretending to freak out over it worthwhile. Think about how much time would be lost if everyone there thought it was a voidbringer. They would not just leave it alone. By saying it was her spren she diffused the situation. Also, she had revealed she was proto-KR to Dalinar, so had finally crossed that line, making it easier to cross it again.]

On 8/28/2016 at 6:20 PM, Ariyar said:

The confrontation was supposed to show Dalinar's affection, however, I really disliked that he didn't try to win Elhokar's understanding or approval to his relationship with Navani.

It's the father telling the son the way things are. I didn't mind. Elohkar has put Dalinar is serious danger due to his paranoia, and Dalinar was making a point about that. To someone acting more like spoiled child. And Elokhar had just lectured him about how that relationship would be inappropriate right before Dalinar started in on him. I don't think talking about it was going to be an option. Elohkar needed a wake up call.

On 8/28/2016 at 6:20 PM, Ariyar said:

Eshonai and Kaladin/Adolin would never match, unless the warrior woman had survived and undid the brainwashing.

Sounds like you are not aware that Eshoani will be getting her own book. That alone implies she will break out of it. And if the theory that each main character will represent a KR order pans out, then she has to break out of it. IIRC, her book will likely be SA4, with Szeth getting SA5.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Argel
polish

galendo · August 30, 2016

My thoughts on the characters have changed throughout the books. For instance, at the end of WoK, my ranking of the four main characters was as follows:
1) Kaladin
2) Shallan
3) Dalinar
4) Adolin

Kaladin was easily my favorite, because the Bridge Four stuff was great, whereas Dalinar and Adolin both got dinged for being too indistinguishable, and for having the least interesting of the three plots.

My rankings of the same characters in WoR was:
1) Dalinar
2) Adolin
3) Kaladin
4) Shallan

Dalinar and Adolin's plots got a lot more interesting with Kaladin and Szeth added in, but Kaladin got dinged majorly for being a chore to read once he lost Syl, and Shallan...Shallan...I won't go into the full spiel about why I hate her entire arc, but when in another post a year ago this week I opined what I would change in Stormlight Archive, I wrote this (partly by coincidence, Shallan features prominently in each of my complaints, though most of them are bigger than just Shallan):

Spoiler

I could nitpick a bunch of things that I'd have done differently, but if I were to pick a few big ones:

1) Ditch the regular flashback sequences -- I find that the flashbacks are rather boring when compared to the main story, and they often don't even answer the questions I want answered. Like, the one question I really wanted answered from Shallan's sequence was what she did to become a Radiant, and after reading her entire sequence, I still don't have any idea. The fact that only one character gets sequences each book means there's no hope for getting that scene in the future, either. The idea of each character getting a book of flashbacks seems flawed.

2) Don't force certain character interactions -- Other people have mentioned Kaladin/Moash interactions already on this thread, but I find the Shallan/Kaladin interactions to be the worst offenders, entirely forced and unbelievable. Almost every scene where they're together seems to me forced and unnatural, with characters holding the idiot ball left and right. It's really annoying.

3) Make more Radiants behave honorably -- This kind of bugs me; by my count there are exactly two honorable characters in Stormlight Archives that we know about, Kaladin and Dalinar. Three if you count Szeth and, I guess, four if you count Lift. I don't expect a lot of characters to be honorable -- part of the setting is that most people aren't, largely due to Odium's influence -- but it seems that the Radiants at least should be. While Kaladin and Dalinar walk the walk, Shallan has done a total of two honorable things by my count (go find the Oathgates and obtain pardon for the deserters) and Jasnah one (refuse to claim a devotion that she didn't believe in). When weighted against all the dishonorable things they seem to get away with without losing their spren, it seems pretty unfair.

I could gripe about more things that I'd change, most of which involve changing Shallan's character drastically (it's not a coincidence that she features prominantly in all three of my complaints above). In fact, just because I can:

4) Make Shallan a better character -- I won't go into too much detail, other than what I've mentioned above, but I consider her easily the least compelling main character in SA so far. I won't go so far as to say that the story would be better without her, but the way the plot twists and twists just to give Shallan a prominant role is incredibly annoying. Jasnah "dies" so that Shallan can be alone to do her stuff. Kaladin earns his place in a Highprince's household, while Shallan is just given hers for no good reason. It's pretty darn frustrating.

My overall rankings, at the moment, for the Stormlight Archive as a whole are:
1) Kaladin
2) Dalinar
3) Shallan
4) Adolin

Kaladin's Bridge Four performance in WoK was just that good, and Dalinar got enough better in WoR to get up to second, while Shallan performed poorly enough to bump down to third but is still saved from the bottom rank by her WoK performance, which I actually rather liked. All of my Shallan-centric complaints are focused on the WoR Shallan -- I liked her well enough in WoK.

My thoughts on some of the characters...And do share your opinion too!

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

The One Who Connects he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

The One Who Connects he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Blightsong he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

maxal she/her

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Blightsong he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

maxal she/her

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Blightsong he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+hwiles He/Him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Argel he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Argel he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

+hwiles He/Him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

maxal she/her

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Argel he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

maxal she/her

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Argel he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

maxal she/her

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Argel he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Argel he/him

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Recently Browsing 0 members