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Who can do Hemalurgy


Oversleep

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I found two confliciting WoBs about who can perform Hemalurgy:

Quote

Chaos (17 October 2008)

Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.

source

This one is from 2015:

Quote

Shardlet

In hemalurgy, does the person doing the spiking need to have Scadrian investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Question

So, anyone with the knowledge could spike someone?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

source

Any WoBs I missed on this?

EDIT: And this one is from 16/02/2016:

Quote

Q: Why can non-Scadrians use Hemalurgy? Don't they need Ruin's sDNA, like Allomancers need Preservation?
A: Hemalurgy is built to be able to be used by anyone. It's about taking and breaking. Ruin doesn't care who does such things
source

So I think it pretty much confirms that anyone can use Hemalurgy.

Edited by Oversleep
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Those actually don't look contradictory to me. He's saying in the first one that you have to find someone with the right genetic and spiritual codes to spike, not that the spiker has to have anything special. Because of the intent and process required, it needed a Shard's interference for it to even be used in the first place. No ones stumbling across it by accident.

jW

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I had a theory about some hidden limitation of Hemalurgy, but until now I didn't have the chance to ask to Brandon.

I think that Ruin (or Harmony) doesn't not provide Ruin's Investiture to made an Hemalurgic Spike and an Hemalurgist have to provide this Ruin's Investiture from the victim or from the spike.

This (if I have right) mean that you may spike every Scadrial native with whatever metal you want (actually also people who have integrate artificially some Ruin's Investiture). But you need an Atium Spike (pure or alloy) to Spike foreign human.

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If you put an Atium spike someone and then put a spike through their heart, what good would that do? Aren't you stealing Preservation's investiture with Hemalurgy, not Ruin's? The quote from Sanderson, like Jondesu pointed out says that the one who has the spike driven through their heart must have "right spiritual and genetic code" but the one receiving the spike has no such limitation. Therefore is a Hemalurgic spike (one that had already stolen the investiture from the proper person) were taken to a different planet, that "Investiture" would be able to be "added" to that person's soul and they would posses the powers stolen by that spike. Why would spiking a foreign human with an Atium spike be different than spiking the foreigner without a spike?

Edited by william.sexton3
clarification on question concerning who was "spiked" and who "receives the spike"
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I think @Yata meant you'd need to use an Atium spike to steal the power or attributes of a non-Scadrian, not that if you were foreign to Scadrial you'd need to use one. I think he's right, too: Scadrians have some of Ruin's Investiture in them already, so nothing special is needed to spike them, any metal can work for the appropriate attribute because the Ruin Investiture is already present. For someone not from Scadrial, though, you'd have to steal their powers using an Atium spike, which is/contains Ruin's Investiture, because they don't have it in them already to facilitate the Hemalurgic magic. That's also why other worlds won't just discover it on their own: they'd need Atium, which only comes from Scadrial.

jW

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Yes it's what I meant, sorry for be unclear.

Of course it's an hypotesis born by the idea that Ruin doesn't spread his Investiture in the same way of Preservation. With this idea the rest is pretty obvious but of course the idea at its core may be wrong

Edited by Yata
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22 hours ago, Jondesu said:

He's saying in the first one that you have to find someone with the right genetic and spiritual codes to spike, not that the spiker has to have anything special.

I am not sure what you mean. Do you imply that Hemalurgy can be performed by anyone but only on Scadrians? We know that's not the case.

Now that I reread that first WoB, I don't know what Brandon meant either.

 

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7 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I am not sure what you mean. Do you imply that Hemalurgy can be performed by anyone but only on Scadrians? We know that's not the case.

Now that I reread that first WoB, I don't know what Brandon meant either.

 

To me, it sounded like the sDNA of the spikee (can I use that?) is what mattered, the sDNA of the spiker is irrelevant.

Less confused wording: All you need to know is where to spike, and to have available people to spike.

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I suspect the 2nd WoB is what matters since it's more specific. And Brandon Sanderson probably only said the first one because there is really no way for somebody to know hemalurgy unless given knowledge by Ruin or already has a working knowledge about it (Paalm)

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36 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I am not sure what you mean. Do you imply that Hemalurgy can be performed by anyone but only on Scadrians? We know that's not the case.

Now that I reread that first WoB, I don't know what Brandon meant either.

 

Without an Atium spike, only on Scadrians, yes, if the theory is true. Atium spikes could be used on anyone from any world, because they would provide the Investiture needed to perform the transfer.

jW

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So, for the sake of an example: If Marsh had another Atium spike and he drove it through Raoden's heart, would anyone pierced with that spike be able to use AonDor (assuming he knew the right place to place the spike and that there was a "right place" to place the spike)? Is that what we are asking here? Because adding the body of Ruin to a person from Sel would enable Hemalergy to work? 

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45 minutes ago, william.sexton3 said:

So, for the sake of an example: If Marsh had another Atium spike and he drove it through Raoden's heart, would anyone pierced with that spike be able to use AonDor (assuming he knew the right place to place the spike and that there was a "right place" to place the spike)? Is that what we are asking here? Because adding the body of Ruin to a person from Sel would enable Hemalergy to work? 

If we talk about my hypotesis...Yes it will work (but I am unsure if pure Atium will work or you need a specific alloy)

Edited by Yata
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Yep, in addition, if Raoden had an Atium spike and stuck it in Lift, he could steal from her. The spiker's sDNA doesn't matter, only the spiked, and then only if they're non-Scadrian would an Atium spike be 100% necessary (this is all based on that hypothesis of course).

jW

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The assumption that off-world would require Atium spikes gave me an idea.

Has Brandon stated that the 16+God Metals are the limit?
If not, it's possible that spikes could me made from nearly any metal

And about the fact that Ruin told TLR about hemalurgy and didn't use other metals: TLR also didn't tell the Inquisitors (who did most of the researching) about half of the metals either, so its still a possibility

Edited by The One Who Connects
Ah well, it was an idea
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It's not how the Metallic Arts works. They are restricted to those 16 Metals (and the godmetal that I see as a bit as an Hack).

We have some trustful sources in-world who confirmed the number of Metals.

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1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I realize the 16 thing is integral to the Metallic Arts.

I just felt that since Hemalurgy could steal things not of the Metallic Arts, it seemed to fit that it could use materials outside of the MA too.

It's been speculated that a focus for another world could be used, like a gemspike on Roshar, but I personally find that unlikely. It's Ruin's system and will follow Scadrial's rules, just like Allomancy on other worlds still uses metal (we saw that with Hoid and the metal flakes he used to soothe Shallan).

jW

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I like @Jondesu find quite impossible the focus-change when you change planet. First of all, the Magic is coded in your sDNA and this not change if you worldhop.

Secondly the Gemstone are NOT the Roshar's Focus, we can't be sure about what the focus is but the Gemstone was deleted from the possible candidates thanks to Secret History (I avoid the matter further because we are not in a Spoiler Free topic).

Third if we take the "if you change planet your magic changes focus with the new planet's one" as hypotesis, we will find the end of everything we know in the Cosmere. The Worldhopper Kandra ? Mindless as soon he leaves Scadrial because his Blessings are hemalurgic no more. An Inquisitor or Koloss ? Dead... A Feruchemist will lose all his Feruchemical Charge in his Metalminds at once. I may find other strange example but I am woke up and my mind is not at his full capacity.

Returning to the topic:

11 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I just felt that since Hemalurgy could steal things not of the Metallic Arts, it seemed to fit that it could use materials outside of the MA too.

The Hemalurgy steals Spirit web, steal other powers are not an "extra" in the Hemalurgy's Scope. Everyone in every Shardworld have Soul/Spirit Web. It's the same thing of the Bronze, the Scadrial guys think it "senses Allomancy" but it's just a misunderstood of his real effect filtred by their limited live experience. In their planet alone there are 3 Magics but two of them are "stelthy" while one if really noisy... This made them think that the Bronze may sense only Allomancy.

(I propose also the theory that Steel and Iron Allomancy are victims of the same misunderstood but there are no evidence to prove or disprove this theory of mine)

Anyway it may be possible multiple models to make a lot of Cosmere's powers fit the 16 Spike (to avoid to mix hypotesis, here I don't apply my previous one about the need of Ruin's Investiture). For example:

- Well the Spikes made by metals who may steal everything (Atium for example) may be used to foreign powers (ok this is obvius)

- Maybe everywhere we read "it steals Mental Allomancy" it's really "it steals Mental Positive End powers" and the same thing with Feruchemy and End-Neutral. Of course this explaination doesn't cover every possibility (other End Negative powers) but actually we have no proof about the Hemalurgy may steal every power.

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14 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I realize the 16 thing is integral to the Metallic Arts.

I just felt that since Hemalurgy could steal things not of the Metallic Arts, it seemed to fit that it could use materials outside of the MA too.

It could. We got a WoB for that. Makes Hemalurgy the most universal magic system available.

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5 hours ago, Yata said:

The Hemalurgy steals Spirit web, steal other powers are not an "extra" in the Hemalurgy's Scope. Everyone in every Shardworld have Soul/Spirit Web. It's the same thing of the Bronze, the Scadrial guys think it "senses Allomancy" but it's just a misunderstood of his real effect filtred by their limited live experience. In their planet alone there are 3 Magics but two of them are "stelthy" while one if really noisy... This made them think that the Bronze may sense only Allomancy.

This made sense. I see where i misunderstood now

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  • 1 month later...

My interpretation of all this is that Hemalurgy works on all Cosmere worlds, but differently, as the nature of investiture is different.  We "see" things working differently on Roshar for Vasher and Nightblood, as the planet's Investiture system is different.  And we know that learning how to Spike someone is not limited to Scadrial, but the use of metal spikes is limited to the Scadrian's spirit-web, where there were 16 different metals that could each steal different attributes.

 

So my question is, if you want to Spike someone from another planet to steal their abilities, would you need to used materials that store Investiture from their planet, so that the Spirit web matches?  IE: Could you use a ruby (or any of the other 9 gem types) spike on Roshar to steal Rosharan investiture and surges?  An Endowed, but not awakened, object on Nalthis? 

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7 hours ago, Stark said:

My interpretation of all this is that Hemalurgy works on all Cosmere worlds, but differently, as the nature of investiture is different.  We "see" things working differently on Roshar for Vasher and Nightblood, as the planet's Investiture system is different.  And we know that learning how to Spike someone is not limited to Scadrial, but the use of metal spikes is limited to the Scadrian's spirit-web, where there were 16 different metals that could each steal different attributes.

 

So my question is, if you want to Spike someone from another planet to steal their abilities, would you need to used materials that store Investiture from their planet, so that the Spirit web matches?  IE: Could you use a ruby (or any of the other 9 gem types) spike on Roshar to steal Rosharan investiture and surges?  An Endowed, but not awakened, object on Nalthis? 

Probably not. The fact that hemalurgy requires metals is an inherent part of hemalurgy, as a result of the junction between the intent of the shard forming it, Ruin, and the nature of the planet it is formed on, Scadrial.

Edited by Spoolofwhool
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  • 1 month later...

I walked into that WoB purely by accident:
(it's from 16/02/2016 - I mean February, I know you have strange date formatting :P)

Quote

Q: Why can non-Scadrians use Hemalurgy? Don't they need Ruin's sDNA, like Allomancers need Preservation?

A: Hemalurgy is built to be able to be used by anyone. It's about taking and breaking. Ruin doesn't care who does such things

(source)

 

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