The unified theory of Roshar

[Blightsong]

What I'm saying is that while I agree that those focuses you are talking about, Aons, metals, are a part of the Shardworld, they are not directly tied to the magic system of that planet or its use. Theoretically, an Allomancer could still use their power never even having seen a metal. It is just that worlds way of giving investiture to those who could use it, not specifically any one magic system (although there are probably ties to that planets way of accessing the magic system and the magic system itself, there kind of needs to be for the magic system to work).

 

So what I'm saying about metals, Aons, and gemstones is that because they are not directly needed as far as we know in any of the magic systems, and because there are hacks to get around using them in those magic systems, they are not directly tied to the manifestations of investiture themselves.

 

Spren, on the other hand, are specifically needed within the manifestations of investiture. There is no hack for a surgebinder to use surgebinding without their Spren, they are directly tied to the magic and it's use. This is why I believe that they are not exactly comparable to the above focuses.

 

I would also like to point out that while Spren are a part of Roshars magic systems, they are not specific to that planet. Brandon has confirmed two different types of similar bonds, one being Seons to their masters and the other being Elantrians to Arelon. Metals, gemstones, and Aons cannot key into other sources of investiture than those present on their respective planets (there is a distinction here, we know tha metals can access preservation  investiture while on other planets, because physical location does not matter in the spiritual realm, but they are still accessing preservationists power, not another offworld power).

[Blightsong]

17th shard won't let me edit, so I'm double posting, forgive me.

 

While what I am saying still has a lot of theory to it, and I don't expect you to immediately agree with what I am saying, I only ask that you take in what I am saying and weight it against the knowledge we currently have (especially the WoB that I linked).

[Spoolofwhool]

@Blightsong I understand what you're saying, and I agree with it, but I'm not sure you're fully grasping what I'm saying so I'm just going to write it all out. That way we can focus on it fully. 

We know how manifestations of investitures come to be. A shard invests into a planet, and as a result of the investiture, the planet creates a manifestation of investiture (magic), with the base concept of the magic based on the intent of the shard. However, what I'm proposing that planets also have a specific aspect they add to a manifestation of investiture, like a flavor. Now this flavor isn't necessarily something that is unique to the planet, just like a quirk the planet has. The thing is though, when this flavor is applied to the creation of a manifestation of investiture, it is a part of what determines how the investiture which fuels the magic can be accessed or manipulated. It isn't necessarily the focus for the magic, but it plays a part. 

So if we look at some of the worlds, we can determine its flavor. Scadrial's for instance is metallic, atomic structure. This is apparent in allomancy, feruchemy, and hemalurgy. Sel's is symbology, with forms conveying different meanings, and being linked together. Roshar, I'm less sure about. However, I think it has to do with spren, and bonding and binding them. This is shown with surgebinding, fabrials and the natural spren bonds which occur. In addition, this WoB indicates that the spren has to be close by for surgebinding to occur, perhaps because it needs to reinforce the bond.

Now taking into account your comment about how metallic structures aren't required to use allomancy, I think you missed what I was saying. What I am talking about is taking into account only the manifestation of investiture by itself, ignoring any possible influences from other manifestations, shards, or anything else. The base form. Sure, Preservation's mists allow you to use allomancy without metals, or honorblades allow you to surgebind without a spren. But those require outside intervention, outside of the scope of what the manifestation of investiture was designed for. It's taking advantage of the fact that all manifestations investitures are essentially the same power at their roots, and shards can supplement that power. 

Hopefully this makes sense. If not, please, break it down and explain where I went wrong. 

Edited August 26, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Djarskublar]

25 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

@Blightsong I understand what you're saying, and I agree with it, but I'm not sure you're fully grasping what I'm saying so I'm just going to write it all out. That way we can focus on it fully. 

We know how manifestations of investitures come to be. A shard invests into a planet, and as a result of the investiture, the planet creates a manifestation of investiture (magic), with the base concept of the magic based on the intent of the shard. However, what I'm proposing that planets also have a specific aspect they add to a manifestation of investiture, like a flavor. Now this flavor isn't necessarily something that is unique to the planet, just like a quirk the planet has. The thing is though, when this flavor is applied to the creation of a manifestation of investiture, it is a part of what determines how the investiture which fuels the magic can be accessed or manipulated. It isn't necessarily the focus for the magic, but it plays a part. 

So if we look at some of the worlds, we can determine its flavor. Scadrial's for instance is metallic, atomic structure. This is apparent in allomancy, feruchemy, and hemalurgy. Sel's is symbology, with forms conveying different meanings, and being linked together. Roshar, I'm less sure about. However, I think it has to do with spren, and bonding and binding them. This is shown with surgebinding, fabrials and the natural spren bonds which occur. In addition, this WoB indicates that the spren has to be close by for surgebinding to occur, perhaps because it needs to reinforce the bond.

Now taking into account your comment about how metallic structures aren't required to use allomancy, I think you missed what I was saying. What I am talking about is taking into account only the manifestation of investiture by itself, ignoring any possible influences from other manifestations, shards, or anything else. The base form. Sure, Preservation's mists allow you to use allomancy without metals, or honorblades allow you to surgebind without a spren. But those require outside intervention, outside of the scope of what the manifestation of investiture was designed for. It's taking advantage of the fact that all manifestations investitures are essentially the same power at their roots, and shards can supplement that power. 

Hopefully this makes sense. If not, please, break it down and explain where I went wrong. 

Your correction here is correct, but you have one thing backwards that doesn't affect your correction.

The focus of a planet is what matters. Every Shardworld has one, and that determines the base of every magic system that Manifests there. The Shard's intent is what then adds flavor, as you call it.

On Scadrial, the focus is metal, so every magic there has to do with metal. Then the intent of the relevant shards adds flavor. For Allomancy, it preserves your strength by tapping Preservation. Hemalurgy kills and damages spiritwebs with metal. Feruchemy is the balance mixture of the two, and stores things end-neutrally in metal.

So yeah you are right, but you have the order in which those effects are applied backwards.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Djarskublar said:

Your correction here is correct, but you have one thing backwards that doesn't affect your correction.

The focus of a planet is what matters. Every Shardworld has one, and that determines the base of every magic system that Manifests there. The Shard's intent is what then adds flavor, as you call it.

On Scadrial, the focus is metal, so every magic there has to do with metal. Then the intent of the relevant shards adds flavor. For Allomancy, it preserves your strength by tapping Preservation. Hemalurgy kills and damages spiritwebs with metal. Feruchemy is the balance mixture of the two, and stores things end-neutrally in metal.

So yeah you are right, but you have the order in which those effects are applied backwards.

Does it really matter the order though? At the end of the day, it boils down to the fact that the shard and the world mix a bit of themselves together and something really cool and shiny comes out. I just ordered it the way I did because my first understanding of manifestations of investiture were based on shard intent + world.

Also, hemalurgy doesn't have to kill, and the Ruin's intent influences the fact that power is lost in transfer as well as spiritweb damage.

[Djarskublar]

25 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Does it really matter the order though? At the end of the day, it boils down to the fact that the shard and the world mix a bit of themselves together and something really cool and shiny comes out. I just ordered it the way I did because my first understanding of manifestations of investiture were based on shard intent + world.

Also, hemalurgy doesn't have to kill, and the Ruin's intent influences the fact that power is lost in transfer as well as spiritweb damage.

Yeah it matters. Theories come from this, so it is a technicality that matters in some rare cases. Not in this one, but correcting misinformation on the forum is always good. Yeah Hemalurgy doesn't have to kill, but we have never seen it not kill. Of course Ruin influences it. That is why there is power loss in the spike compared to the person you spiked. I didn't say it didn't. I feel like I hash this out every time I mention this... Oh well I guess I should stop saying kill...

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, Djarskublar said:

Yeah it matters. Theories come from this, so it is a technicality that matters in some rare cases. Not in this one, but correcting misinformation on the forum is always good. Yeah Hemalurgy doesn't have to kill, but we have never seen it not kill. Of course Ruin influences it. That is why there is power loss in the spike compared to the person you spiked. I didn't say it didn't. I feel like I hash this out every time I mention this... Oh well I guess I should stop saying kill...

As you just said, correct misinformation. What you said implied that hemalurgy always kills and that damage to the spiritweb is the only effect of Ruin's intent on hemalurgy. Also, I don't know why you're so hung up on the fact we haven't seen hemalurgy not kill that there isn't proof it doesn't have to kill when we have a WoB that says it doesn't have to kill.

[Djarskublar]

Ugh this is what I meant by hashing this out. I have to waste a few posts explaining that I do understand. I believe there is a WoB that Hemalurgy is deadly because the shock of losing part of your spiritweb kills you, even if just the stab wound isn't fatal. Hemalurgy always kills, unless you do something to prevent it from doing so, such as tapping a LOT of gold as you get spiked.

It is like saying using Allomancy always requires using metals. It does... unless you are hacking it and using the mists, or Stormlight etc. It isn't going to suddenly accept certain flavors of cheese as a focus (even though that would be awesome).

I feel like you are putting words in my mouth a bit here. Spiking damages spiritwebs, both yours and the person you spiked, and the piece you ripped off. Hence I said it damages spiritwebs. There are other indirect mental side effects of spiritweb damage that stem from this. The damage to your web can also make it so you are no longer a true human, you are a Hemalurgic construct. Also, just swinging the hammer to do this, even if you don't end up spiked, still seriously increases your Connection to ruin.

Do I need to continue to demonstrate my knowledge? I should really just start saying usually kills the first time, then I wouldn't get nitpicked at so badly.... *sighs in regret* oh well.

[Ari]

I think it's fair enough to simply say Hemalurgy is "usually lethal" and move on, Djarskublar. You clearly get what Brandon's talking about with Hemalurgy, as his normal analogy is that it's like stapling through someone's soul into someone else's, ripping out some of their very being, and then creating a temporary hole in the spiritweb it order to affix the extra power or attribute, which then heals if the spike is removed nonlethally.

Can I ask- since when has "manifestation of investiture" been a term for a magic system? o_O That's so clunky, especially given that the closest synonym for "manifestation" is something along the lines of "materialisation" or "apparition." It seems like you'd have to do an incredible degree of dictionary-bashing to make that even make sense.

[Spoolofwhool]

5 hours ago, Ari said:

Can I ask- since when has "manifestation of investiture" been a term for a magic system? o_O That's so clunky, especially given that the closest synonym for "manifestation" is something along the lines of "materialisation" or "apparition." It seems like you'd have to do an incredible degree of dictionary-bashing to make that even make sense.

First I noticed was in the Ars Arcanum for Alloy of Law, which described Scadrial as having three manifestations of investiture. I believe there is also at least one WoB which uses that term, though I'll have to take a look. If you think about it, it makes sense since the magic systems are what appears after a shard invests in a world.

[Ari]

5 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

First I noticed was in the Ars Arcanum for Alloy of Law, which described Scadrial as having three manifestations of investiture. I believe there is also at least one WoB which uses that term, though I'll have to take a look. If you think about it, it makes sense since the magic systems are what appears after a shard invests in a world.

Aaah, right, as in three observable ways to use Investiture. It's a bit weird to use the term manifestation figuratively like that when actually referring to magic, lol, when it's word that has a literal supernatural meaning. Still, I suppose he was trying to in-universe the term "magic system" and didn't want to use the word "system" because it sounded too modern to him, however that use of the word "manifestation" is also pretty modern, so...

[Blightsong]

In response to @Spoolofwhool, I think i see what you are saying, thanks for clearing that up. I do just want to mention that the powers that come from a magic system are dependent on the Shardworld, and how one gets those powers is based on the shards intent, that's kind of how the intent and Shardworld thing mixes, and we have confirmation of this.

[Djarskublar]

2 hours ago, Ari said:

Aaah, right, as in three observable ways to use Investiture. It's a bit weird to use the term manifestation figuratively like that when actually referring to magic, lol, when it's word that has a literal supernatural meaning. Still, I suppose he was trying to in-universe the term "magic system" and didn't want to use the word "system" because it sounded too modern to him, however that use of the word "manifestation" is also pretty modern, so...

I can't find the relevant WoB right now, but Manifestation of Investiture is the canon term for a magic system that is caused by a Shard or Shards Investing in a planet. Of the system is natural to a planet itself, it doesn't count. I don't recall whether magic Mr A deliberately designed qualifies, but I don't believe so. It only applies to Shardic magic. I don't know if there is a canon term for natural magic. (btw, the wierd thing is calling magic natural XD)

[Ari]

Pretty sure it's called innate investiture when it was around pre-Shards and hasn't been hijacked by any of them yet.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Ari

[Jondesu]

5 minutes ago, Ari said:

Pretty sure it's called innate investiture when it was around pre-Shards and hasn't been hijacked by any of them yet.

That can't be the only application of the term, though.  Scadrians have Innate Investiture in them (their souls at least, and it seems to have been used for more than that), but they were literally created by Ruin and Preservation.  All of their Investiture comes from those Shards, yet they're considered to have Innate Investiture.

I would say it's simply Investiture that they have/possess simply by virtue of who or what they are (since it could apply to non-sapient/sentient creatures and things too, I think), and not by having any connection to a magic system or having gained it from another source.

jW

[Spoolofwhool]

My impression was that innate investure is the breath of life/soul/sDNA (not Nalthis breath though it is related)(not sure about the last)that everyone has. Kinetic investiture is the investiture used for abilities. When using Nightblood, he takes your kinetic investiture (stormlight, breath, tapped feruchemical charge, allomantic gain, etc) then your innate investiture, which kills you. Hemalurgy and breath both affect your innate investiture, with hemalurgy taking some of it, and drabs having reduced innate investiture. I'll try to get some WoBs in a hour, busy now.

[Oversleep]

16 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

I believe there is a WoB that Hemalurgy is deadly because the shock of losing part of your spiritweb kills you, even if just the stab wound isn't fatal. Hemalurgy always kills, unless you do something to prevent it from doing so, such as tapping a LOT of gold as you get spiked.

This again. Sigh.
No mention of any 'special' actions to counteract. There is even a comparision to giving up Breath.

Quote

Question

Hemalurgy, does the person having the metal shoved through them have to die?

Brandon Sanderson

It has to rip off a piece of their soul. That normally results in death.

Question

Because I'm thinking you're going a bit into the future, surgery, precise things like that...

Brandon Sanderson

It's plausible but-- I mean it would leave the person like-- It's ripping off a piece of their soul. But the same thing happens when you give up your Breath. So you're giving up a piece of your soul. There are-- It's plausible you could take off pieces of a soul without killing the person.

source

Quote

zas678

Does the person being pierced in order to charge a Hemalurgic spike have to die?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily. A spike does require you to rip pieces of a soul from the victim, but that does not mean they must die. They would be a very different person afterwords though.
source

Quote

The_Vikachu ()

I remember reading you answer earlier that a person being used to charge a hemalurgic spike does not necessarily have to die. Would that victim be similar to a Drab from Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, making a spike rips off a piece of someone's soul. So...yeah. I'd need to see my exact quote from before, but let's say it's not going to leave a person in good shape.
source

 

[Ari]

13 hours ago, Jondesu said:

That can't be the only application of the term, though.  Scadrians have Innate Investiture in them (their souls at least, and it seems to have been used for more than that), but they were literally created by Ruin and Preservation.  All of their Investiture comes from those Shards, yet they're considered to have Innate Investiture.

I would say it's simply Investiture that they have/possess simply by virtue of who or what they are (since it could apply to non-sapient/sentient creatures and things too, I think), and not by having any connection to a magic system or having gained it from another source.

jW

 

13 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

My impression was that innate investure is the breath of life/soul/sDNA (not Nalthis breath though it is related)(not sure about the last)that everyone has. Kinetic investiture is the investiture used for abilities. When using Nightblood, he takes your kinetic investiture (stormlight, breath, tapped feruchemical charge, allomantic gain, etc) then your innate investiture, which kills you. Hemalurgy and breath both affect your innate investiture, with hemalurgy taking some of it, and drabs having reduced innate investiture. I'll try to get some WoBs in a hour, busy now.

I'm pretty sure Innate Investiture was the term Brandon used for First of the Sun. Let me check.

...

Nope, you guys are right in fact, here is the WoB:

Quote

Chaos

Is there a Cosmere-specific term you use to describe, say, a Shard's power inside someone? For example, people on Scadrial had little bits of Preservation in them that made them sentient (and, with enough Preservation, Allomancy). This obviously doesn't make these people Slivers or Splinters, so I was just wondering if you had a word for it.

Brandon Sanderson

In my own terms, I refer to all of this as types of investiture. The degree, and effects, can be very different - but those people are invested. I term this Innate Investiture, and it is similar to what happens with people on Nalthis. That is also innate.

(Sourced from Theoryland)

Let me trawl a bit and find the correct term, I know the WoB I want but it doesn't have easily searchable terms iirc.

... (20 minutes later lol)

Here we go! Found it through a dragnet search for "investiture." The term is ambient or inherent investiture. (you can see why I confused it with "innate" I hope!)

Quote

Question

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

Brandon Sanderson

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

Question

I'm assuming there is not one there?

Brandon Sanderson

There is not one there.

Question

So it's like a Splintered one from something else?

Brandon Sanderson

No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

Question

So there is inherent investiture...

Brandon Sanderson

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

 

[Oversleep]

On 23.08.2016 at 10:45 PM, Oversleep said:

Back in WoK Syl talks about taking something from Kaladin and giving something in return. Also, Brandon multiple times talked about Roshar having magical symbiosis. Not to mention it just seems to be symbiosis. Two different organisms together, benefitting from their relationship.

WoR, towards the end of chapter 17. Shallan theorizes about the Nahel bond, coming to conclusion it's a symbiotic relationship.