Scadrial Thredony Connection

[+Kolten]

This entire post is pretty much one big Secret History spoiler, so you have been warned

So there is one little passage in Secret History that could have some interesting implications, here is the passage in question:

Quote

“Hello, Kelsier,” Ruin said through the figure’s lips. “My colleague is unavailable. But I will convey your requests, if you wish it of me.”

“Stay back,” Kelsier said, flourishing the knife, reaching by instinct for metals he could no longer burn. damnation, he missed that. “Oh, Kelsier,” Ruin said. “Stay back? I’m all around you—the air you pretend to breathe, the ground beneath your feet. I’m in that knife and in your very soul. How exactly am I to ‘stay back’?”

Now that knife Kelsier is waving around came from Nazh, and while it does not really explain its composition or anything from what I could find, Nazh does mention that he is fond of it. That leads me to think that perhaps it is from Threnody, in which case it is weird that Ruin identifies Nazh's knife as specifically containing pieces of him. I see a few possible ways to interpret this scene

1) The knife is actually from Scadrial. Possible. Nazh had probably managed be in the physical realm in Scadrial before, and could have obtained a knife while there

2) Ruin just assumes Kelsier's knife is part of him, I mean how is Kelsier going to get a worldhopping knife? Seems unlikely though, I would think a shard could sense if something was made from its investiture or not.

3) Ruin is part of Adonalsium so technically anyting made by Adonalsium could be construed as containing part of Ruin. A bit of a stretch

4) It is a typo, or continuity error. Boring but still should be considered

5) Threnody is connected to Ruin in some way. This is the most interesting possibility. The Ire mention that they have made precautions specifically against threnodite shades, so it is already fairly plausible to believe that Threnody is in the same solar system as Scadrial, that was already debated here. In all the WoB I can find since, he sidesteps the question. Anyway if a knife taken from Threnody really is created out of Ruin's investiture then there has to be at least some connection. Maybe Threnody was an first attempt at creating a world by Preservation and Ruin. Or maybe they created the whole solar system and then only got trapped to Scadrial once they invested even more heavily in it by creating humans. Perhaps the "evil" on threnody was nothing more than the Deepness that Alendi and Rashek were fighting, and the current inhabitants of Threnody are refugees from that event (though I am not sold on that idea just yet).

In any case there are probably other interesting implications I did not consider here, and besides this is a lot to extrapolate from a single passage. Thoughts?

[Sam Script he/him]

Though the first theory: the knife was obtained by Nazh in Scadrial, is the most convincing, but the last one: Ruin had some connections with Threnody, is more likely to be what Brandon wanna imply. In my view, the words are a little deliberate to be 

I remember there was a Interview Question asking about The Evil and Ruin... could anyone provide it?

[Argel he/him]

7 hours ago, Kolten said:

so it is already fairly plausible to believe that Threnody is in the same solar system as Scadrial

Threnody is not in the same planetary system as Scadrial. Though there was confusion over that question and Theoryland has not been updated.

Additionally, we know Allomancers can use metals from other worlds, which suggests that the silver from Sacdrial and Threnody are both for lack of a better term, Cosmere Silver, so there's no reason for Ruin to know it came off-world. 

Furthermore, since so much traces back to Adonalsium and Brandon even openly uses that to dodge questions, it's possible that's what Ruin means. 

Side note: I think a lot of people misunderstand "ruin" -- I think of it more as this definition for "entropy": Inevitable and steady deterioration of a system or society. Which explains why Ati can be a nice, kind man and eventually turn into what we see in Mistborn.

Anyway, I'm leaning towards "entropy", but "not knowing where it came from" works well too. I think the rest are reading more into that scene than is there.

The Scadrial-Threnody connection is that quote from the Ire about not detecting any shadows from Threnody or soemtihng like that, which suggests that Scadrial and Threnody are near each other. Possibly Sel as well, but I do not recall if they hint at how close Sel is (e.g. maybe Threnody is in-bettween Sel and Scadrial, such that they had to pass nearby it).

Edited July 25, 2016 by Argel

[Pathfinder]

I think a little much is being applied to this quote. I take it this way:

 

" Ruin said. “Stay back? I’m all around you—the air (wind erodes, air pollution damages your lungs, etc) you pretend to breathe, the ground (earthquakes destroy cities, landslides bury, even insects and animals within the earth erode ruin and destroy) beneath your feet. I’m in that knife (cuts up things into smaller pieces, ends lives) and in your very soul (all beings on scadrial are made up of preservation and ruin, as well as Kelsier is shown to be very "ruinous" in his killing of the nobility and bringing down the lord ruler's reign). How exactly am I to ‘stay back’?”"

 

So it is basically Ruin inflated ego Ati talking about how powerful and pervasive Ruin is. Just like his convo with Vin in the original trilogy. He is saying ruin is in all things. It is a natural step in the order of the cosmere. Running away from ruin is as likely as trying to run away from yourself. It is everywhere, all the time. It is in the air you breath, the ground you walk on, any of your possessions and you yourself. So how exactly is he to stay back?

[Rasarr she/her]

@Argel, even the topic states very clearly that it's Threnody and Sel, not Scadrial. Scadrial and Threnody being in the same system - or at least nearby - are still possible, though personally I think that considering the impact Sazed had on Scadrian solar system, what with moving the whole planet around etc., he should probably notice that there's one more world with people revolving around "his" star.

This being said, I think Ati was speaking metaphorically, a la what Pathfinder noted.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Rasarr

[+Kolten]

Yeah the metaphorical view makes a lot of sense. Also I got to thinking and realize that if ruin was connected to threnody and was about to be released, then threnody was probably next on his list. Nazh would probably have pushed to help Kelsier more than he did . . .  though who knows, maybe he hates threnody. Anyway for this theory to work there would have to be other evidence, which I have not found and in the meantime @Pathfinder explanation satisfies me so have an upvote! 

[Argel he/him]

@Rasarr Gah!! You're right!! I could swear there is a WoB that Scadrial is alone, but I'm starting to think it may just be in my headcanon.  Hopefully Arcanum Unbound will clear it up.

[Radiant Returned he/him]

I'm not so casually waiting anxiously for Arcanum Unbounded and the explosion of Cosmere debates the star charts are going to inspire. 

[+Kolten]

Wait, star charts are being released? Ooh this is going to be fun. Almost makes me feel better that we still have a year until stormlight  3

[Yata he/him]

9 hours ago, Kolten said:

Wait, star charts are being released? Ooh this is going to be fun. Almost makes me feel better that we still have a year until stormlight  3

yes but remember that it is a star charts based on Worldhopper knowledge not real astronomical knowledge... Their map may be really oddly or with strange features. But in the end we may still understand how the planets are connected

[Argel he/him]

Also, IIRC, they be CR starcharts, not PR. Probably because the planets are closer that way. Or maybe they haven't nailed down all the PR distances yet.

[PallonianFire he/him]

22 minutes ago, Argel said:

Or maybe they haven't nailed down all the PR distances yet.

Yeah, that makes the most sense to me. Nobody has FTL travel yet; all worldhopping is done through the CR as far as we know.

(Well, I guess Sixth of the Dusk is gonna be in AU...hrm) 

[Argel he/him]

Yeah, SoD is the FTL exception.

Man, I really hate that Arcanun Unbound has the abbreviation as Alternate Universe. Maybe we should use UA (Unbound Arcana) instead? AU is too common already. I have just been writing it out.

[Jondesu he/him]

54 minutes ago, PallonianFire said:

Yeah, that makes the most sense to me. Nobody has FTL travel yet; all worldhopping is done through the CR as far as we know.

(Well, I guess Sixth of the Dusk is gonna be in AU...hrm) 

25 minutes ago, Argel said:

Yeah, SoD is the FTL exception.

Man, I really hate that Arcanun Unbound has the abbreviation as Alternate Universe. Maybe we should use UA (Unbound Arcana) instead? AU is too common already. I have just been writing it out.

Actually, I wonder about that.  Could First of the Sun be in the same system as another planet, thus not requiring the Ones Above to have FTL yet?  That would even make the name make tons of sense, though of course they wouldn't have necessarily known there was another planet in their solar system.

jW

[Argel he/him]

From a book personalization:

Quote

Q: Have we seen the ones above before they gained space flight and when does Sixth of It's (meant Sixth of Dusk) take place cosmere timeline wise?

A: Yes,+it is the most "future" you have seen.

 

And further down in that thread (page 2) terminon tells us that:

Quote

When I ordered Shadows Beneath, I asked Brandon to include some interesting larger-Cosmere-related tidbit about Dusk in the personalization. What he wrote is: "Dusk has had Herdazian food and _hates_ it."

 

If they are in the same solar system then that would suggest Roshar, which doesn't seem to fit. FTL makes more sense. 

There's also this from Theoryland: 

 

Quote

QUESTION

The Expanse of Vibrance… Nalthis?

BRANDON SANDERSON

(more grunting) You would be making a good guess, if you said that. That’s an informed guess.

 

And he RAFOd if we have seen the world for the Expanse of Broken Sky. Not sure if these tell us anything (other than it's probably not in the same system as Nalthis).

Oddly enough, I am not sure if anyone has asked if the one from above have FTL.

 

Source thread for the book personalizations:

 

 

[Radiant Returned he/him]

Question: I've been trying to get it from context but what does "FTL" mean??

[Jondesu he/him]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

If they are in the same solar system then that would suggest Roshar, which doesn't seem to fit. FTL makes more sense. 

True, except there could also be worldhoppers on First of the Sun via the CR, and/or Sixth of the Dusk may have become a worldhopper himself.

5 minutes ago, Radiant Returned said:

Question: I've been trying to get it from context but what does "FTL" mean??

Faster Than Light. :-)

jW

Edited July 26, 2016 by Jondesu

[PallonianFire he/him]

3 hours ago, Argel said:

And he RAFOd if we have seen the world for the Expanse of Broken Sky. Not sure if these tell us anything (other than it's probably not in the same system as Nalthis).

I have a feeling the Expanses are major shardworlds. It would be strange for a (possibly) one-off novella of a minor shardworld to featured prominently on a CR map in Brandon's biggest series.

(IMO Vibrance=Nalthis, Broken Sky=Taldain)

[+Kolten]

40 minutes ago, PallonianFire said:

I have a feeling the Expanses are major shardworlds. It would be strange for a (possibly) one-off novella of a minor shardworld to featured prominently on a CR map in Brandon's biggest series.

By this do you mean First of Sun or Threnody? 

Though you are right, I highly doubt any of the expanses on the SA map refer to either

Edited July 26, 2016 by Kolten

[Argel he/him]

16 hours ago, PallonianFire said:

Broken Sky=Taldain

Or maybe Yolen?

18 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Sixth of the Dusk may have become a worldhopper himself

That one is a question of timing based on what Brandon said. If we take the past tense at face value, then it implies Sixth has already had it by the time we are reading SoD and there is nothing to indicate he is a world hopper at that point in time.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Argel

[PallonianFire he/him]

On 7/26/2016 at 5:03 PM, Kolten said:

By this do you mean First of Sun or Threnody? 

Though you are right, I highly doubt any of the expanses on the SA map refer to either

Yeah, FotS and Threnody would be minor shardworlds. And that's my point: the Expanses most likely refer to major shardworlds. Taldain as Broken Sky makes a lot of sense, since the world is tidally locked and the sky there is literally broken into permanent day and permanent night. Vibrance makes sense for color-happy Nalthis.

Edited July 28, 2016 by PallonianFire