Two confusions about the Elantris books

[Amaror]

So I have basically two questions which I never really got while reading the two Elantris books.

1. How is the political situation in Sel now exactly?

In Elantris we are told that basically the whole world belongs to the Fjordel empire now and that Theod and Arelon are the only nations standing in the way of Jaddeth reawakening, which is supposed to happen when the whole world believes in Shu-Derreth. Yet in "Emporer's Soul" we are treated to the Rose Empire which apparently also doesn't have warm relations with Svorden, so it doesn't seem to be part of the Fjordel Empire. What is it now? Are Teod and Arelon that "last Bastion" against Shu-Derreth now or are they just two nations among many that don't belong to the Fjordel Empire?

2. How did Raoden "fix" AonDor exactly?

I just really don't get it. I know that the Aons are very much part of the land of Arelon and that the Aons thus need to "draw" the land of Arelon and add certain details to it depending on what effect the Aon should produce. What I don't get is why a line drawn in the Earth fixed AonDor. I thought the Chasm was allready there, why would Raoden need to draw a fake Chasm in the sand in order to make AonDor work properly?

[Pagerunner he/him]

I'm a little rusty on the first one, so I won't try to answer. But, for #2, Raoden added the chasm line to fix the city. Elantrians are 'made' by the Aon formed by the city of Elantris. That Aon was missing a chasm line, so it didn't match the land anymore. By drawing the line, Raoden fixed the Aon formed by the city, which then fixed the Elantrians.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

21 minutes ago, Amaror said:

So I have basically two questions which I never really got while reading the two Elantris books.

1. How is the political situation in Sel now exactly?

In Elantris we are told that basically the whole world belongs to the Fjordel empire now and that Teod and Arelon are the only nations standing in the way of Jaddeth reawakening, which is supposed to happen when the whole world believes in Shu-Dereth. Yet in "Emperor's Soul" we are treated to the Rose Empire which apparently also doesn't have warm relations with Svorden, so it doesn't seem to be part of the Fjordel Empire. What is it now? Are Teod and Arelon that "last Bastion" against Shu-Derreth now or are they just two nations among many that don't belong to the Fjordel Empire?

Let's just say that the followers of Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath have an inflated opinion of themselves. Take this map for example, the Rose Empire is only obliquely mentioned as the "Rose barbarians" and Peter (I believe) has confirmed that region is actually larger than the rest of the map. I remember at one point Brandon was asked about this and he said the rest of the world just kind of views them as "those crazy religious people" and ignores them. As for the whole awakening of Jaddeth thing they are pretty much just talking about that continent (plus Teod).

21 minutes ago, Amaror said:

2. How did Raoden "fix" AonDor exactly?

I just really don't get it. I know that the Aons are very much part of the land of Arelon and that the Aons thus need to "draw" the land of Arelon and add certain details to it depending on what effect the Aon should produce. What I don't get is why a line drawn in the Earth fixed AonDor. I thought the Chasm was already there, why would Raoden need to draw a fake Chasm in the sand in order to make AonDor work properly?

Raoden didn't really "fix" AonDor, he just figured out what changed and how it works now. What that line in the earth did (presuming you are referring to the events of the climax) is fix the Aon made by the city of Elantris itself and it's four gate cities which acts as a sort of power amplifier.

[BeskarKomrk he/him]

1.

We don't really know much, to be honest. There is a Derethi priest in Emperor's Soul somewhere, so Shu-Dereth definitely still exists. Beyond that, I think we can assume from the ending of Elantris and various WoBs about the potential sequels that the Fjordell Empire did not conquer Arelon and Teod, and in fact is weakened following the events of the novel.

2.

There are two different things at work here. The Aons are related to the land and, as such, follow the shape of the land. The chasm in the land has to be added to every Aon from this point on to make them work. So all of the individual Aons that Raoden tries to draw throughout the novel fail because they don't feature the chasm line. What Raoden realizes toward the end of the novel is that the city of Elantris is itself a giant Aon that acts as a power amplifier for the entire magic system. The amplification no longer works because the Aon that the city represents does not have the line corresponding to the chasm. When Raoden draws the chasm line into the sand, he completes the city's Aon and reactivates the power amplification, allowing the Shaod to be completed. In a sense, AonDor was never really broken. They could have used it at any time throughout the novel (and the previous ten years) by adding the chasm line to the individual Aons. What was broken was the amplification brought by the city itself, which in turn prevented the Shaod from working completely.

[Amaror]

2 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

I'm a little rusty on the first one, so I won't try to answer. But, for #2, Raoden added the chasm line to fix the city. Elantrians are 'made' by the Aon formed by the city of Elantris. That Aon was missing a chasm line, so it didn't match the land anymore. By drawing the line, Raoden fixed the Aon formed by the city, which then fixed the Elantrians.

Ahh. So Elantris, the city, basically forms an Aon with it's buildings and form. And that Aon is the thing that's responsible for people turning into Elantrians and the increased Strength and co. of Elantrians. 

Alright, when this was mentioned in the climax I thought that they meant that the city of Elantris was another geographical feature of some Aons you draw in the air. I didn't realize that Elantris was a working Aon on it's own. 

[Radiant Returned he/him]

There should be a map in your book, complete with examples of Aons in the back in the Ars Arcanum. Elantris and the four cities connected to it form the Aon Rao, which means "spirit" in-language and is used as a power amplifier in Elantris magic. The city of Elantris is built as a power amplifier for the Elantrians in general and grants them their divinity-like powers. So with the chasm being there, Raoden had to draw a line to match the chasm for the city. I would assume that after the story he works to make that line-in-the-dirt a more permanent structure. 

As far as the Rose Empire, it's huge but because if the mountain passes separating it from Teod and the large sea between the two countries they mostly ignore each other at the time of Elantris (though yeah Svorden with it's well known navy and trade ships have made some contact). Remember that the Fjorden are religious zealots who get their doctrine from the emperor, or Wyrn. The Wyrn essentially wants to dominate every other nation, so he uses his religion as an excuse to try and take over Arelon and Teod. But per a WoB, due to his inability to take over Arelon, Wyrn is going to "re-interpret" scripture to say it's fine the "world" only extends to the Arelon mountain range. So I would assume that if they had been able to take over Arelon and Teod, obviously Jaddeth isn't real so eventually Wyrn would re-interpret scripture to expand to the Rose Empire to keep his zealous followers in-line.

[Stormgate he/him]

Is Jaddeth real? It would not be beyond the scope of possibility that he is, and that perhaps enough devotion could cause him to wake.

Sanderson likes making religions important. Just look what he did in Mistborn.

[Radiant Returned he/him]

I don't think Jaddeth is real. He's obviously not a god, the gods are Devotion and Dominion and neither of their Vessel's names are Jaddeth. Also it's mentioned in Elantris that Jaddeth was originally a minor rock god from another religion, that Shu-Dereth turned into their main guy. I think the whole point of Shu-Dereth is how a peaceful religion like Shu-Keseg can be twisted by dangerous people to be used as an excuse to dominate others and gain power. 

[happyman he/him]

1 minute ago, Radiant Returned said:

I don't think Jaddeth is real. He's obviously not a god, the gods are Devotion and Dominion and neither of their Vessel's names are Jaddeth. Also it's mentioned in Elantris that Jaddeth was originally a minor rock god from another religion, that Shu-Dereth turned into their main guy. I think the whole point of Shu-Dereth is how a peaceful religion like Shu-Keseg can be twisted by dangerous people to be used as an excuse to dominate others and gain power. 

That all sounds very reasonable.  I'd only change it by saying that it's "really" a merging of the worship of Dominion and Jaddeth---Dominion was real, Jaddeth was not, but for probably political reasons, the two of them were claimed to be the same.  Given Dominion's intent, this probably doesn't really hurt him or his power all that much, either.

[Radiant Returned he/him]

3 minutes ago, happyman said:

I'd only change it by saying that it's "really" a merging of the worship of Dominion and Jaddeth---Dominion was real, Jaddeth was not, but for probably political reasons, the two of them were claimed to be the same.

I could get behind this, but even if Jaddeth was just a name for Dominion, it still results in the same thing. Dominion has been splintered, there is no sentient god on the planet that is really directing Wyrn or the Derethi. So while Wyrn might have some magical powers (he definitely seems to have some semblance of foresight) the religion seems like a sham and a front to me. 

[happyman he/him]

Just now, Radiant Returned said:

I could get behind this, but even if Jaddeth was just a name for Dominion, it still results in the same thing. Dominion has been splintered, there is no sentient god on the planet that is really directing Wyrn or the Derethi. So while Wyrn might have some magical powers (he definitely seems to have some semblance of foresight) the religion seems like a sham and a front to me. 

Things like this become complicated when dealing with Shards.  If Devotion and Dominion are half as invested other shards in the Cosmere, then even shattered they will be forces to be reckoned with.

[Yata he/him]

On 26/7/2016 at 11:02 PM, Radiant Returned said:

I could get behind this, but even if Jaddeth was just a name for Dominion, it still results in the same thing. Dominion has been splintered, there is no sentient god on the planet that is really directing Wyrn or the Derethi. So while Wyrn might have some magical powers (he definitely seems to have some semblance of foresight) the religion seems like a sham and a front to me. 

With Cognitive Shadow, Splinters or other oddly remains... It's possible that Skai is still influence Sel directly (like Aona after all)

[Naurock]

On 7/22/2016 at 9:49 AM, Radiant Returned said:

I would assume that after the story he works to make that line-in-the-dirt a more permanent structure. 

He actually doesn't need to. A few chapters earlier he states that an Aon could be made of sand and the power would still work if the Aon was wiped away. He just had to "finish" the Aon, and it correctly worked again.

[Oversleep]

3 hours ago, Naurock said:

He actually doesn't need to. A few chapters earlier he states that an Aon could be made of sand and the power would still work if the Aon was wiped away. He just had to "finish" the Aon, and it correctly worked again.

Really? I must have missed that.

So why was Elantris even built in the first place? I mean, why go through the trouble of shaping walls and buildings of the city to make Aons if they could have been just drawn once?

[Naurock]

 

19 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Really? I must have missed that.

So why was Elantris even built in the first place? I mean, why go through the trouble of shaping walls and buildings of the city to make Aons if they could have been just drawn once?

I'm not sure why Elantris was built. Maybe just as a symbol? A symbol of magic and power that everyone could go to the city for their magics.

Really, there's a lot of questions to be had. 

1) Why can Elantrians channel the Dor via written Aons? Jindooese via ChayShan? Fjorden's via they're own version of the Aon script? Why do they all need their own system? Just something unique to their own land?

2) Who discovered the Aon text? Same for others in 1.

3) How did the person who built Elantris know it would amplify all Dor Magic in the city? Did he/she draw the massive Aon, find out it worked and then just say yep, let's make a city on this and then make walls over it?

4)  Where did Elantrians go before the city was built? (I'm assuming ppl were taken by the Shaod before the city was built because Elantrians are the only ones that can write the glowing script)

5) How does the Shaod choose their ppl, kinda similar to Returned in (War Breaker).

Tons more, just a few questions I have.

[Blackhoof]

I would assume the return of the Elantrians has removed much of the appeal of Shu-Dereth for many people. Before the fall of Elantris, people worshipped them as gods, or at least were split in their minds as to how truthful the claims of Shu-Dereth could be when they were opposed to benevolent deities such as the elantrians.

The hold that Wyrn has over his nations is also of questionable strength. Shuden says that the Jindo only accepted Shu-Dereth to stave off war, but many were beginning to question that decision. Presumably, with Elantrian political support, they could give up Dereth as their state religion and break with Wyrn. Another nation (Hrondor? Forget the name) was also stated as having not seen a priest in years, heavily implying that they barely care for the religion and would leave it should Wyrn grow too weak to intimidate them.

 

The Duladell, having lead a popular revolution, could be stuck with Dereth for a time, but with the elantrians back.... maybe people's minds wil l change and they will turn against the priesthood.

[Radiant Returned he/him]

15 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

The Duladell, having lead a popular revolution, could be stuck with Dereth for a time, but with the elantrians back.... maybe people's minds wil l change and they will turn against the priesthood.

This could happen, important to note that the sequel takes place in the capitol of Fjordell and revolves around Wyrn announcing the emminent return of Jaddeth. Will be interesting. I have a feeling a key part of the novel will be inciting rebellions in the city and around then empire. 

On 7/31/2016 at 4:01 PM, Naurock said:

1) Why can Elantrians channel the Dor via written Aons? Jindooese via ChayShan? Fjorden's via they're own version of the Aon script? Why do they all need their own system? Just something unique to their own land?

All the magic systems have to do with geography. I think it has something to do with the magic finding ways to Connect without a driving force now that the Shards are splintered. 

On 7/31/2016 at 4:01 PM, Naurock said:

2) Who discovered the Aon text? Same for others in 1.

I would bet the original Elantrians when they discovered the city and were first taken by the Sheod discovered it. 

On 7/31/2016 at 4:01 PM, Naurock said:

 

On 7/31/2016 at 4:01 PM, Naurock said:

3) How did the person who built Elantris know it would amplify all Dor Magic in the city? Did he/she draw the massive Aon, find out it worked and then just say yep, let's make a city on this and then make walls over it?

4)  Where did Elantrians go before the city was built? (I'm assuming ppl were taken by the Shaod before the city was built because Elantrians are the only ones that can write the glowing script)

They didn't know at first. I suspect Elantris was built by one of the Shards, because the original Aonic people discovered the city of Elantris already built. People started being taken by the Shaod I think 10 years after they started inhabiting Elantris. These first Elantrians I assume put together the magical city with their magical appearance and started figuring out the magic system. (This information is from the annotations from Elantris on Sanderson's site, also on the Coppermind). 

On 7/31/2016 at 4:01 PM, Naurock said:

5) How does the Shaod choose their ppl, kinda similar to Returned in (War Breaker).

Nothing concrete, but it's generally thought that those who were particularly Devoted to something (fulfilling Devotion's Intent) were taken by the Shaod. Raoden for his devotion to his country, Galloden to farming, Mareshe for art, Karata for her family, Saolin for his liege lord Eondel, etc. 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I should think it be worth mentioning there may be a tie between Jaddeth and Dominion, as the stone in TES is referenced as part of a god's body

[Yata he/him]

On 2/8/2016 at 7:47 PM, Radiant Returned said:

They didn't know at first. I suspect Elantris was built by one of the Shards, because the original Aonic people discovered the city of Elantris already built. People started being taken by the Shaod I think 10 years after they started inhabiting Elantris. These first Elantrians I assume put together the magical city with their magical appearance and started figuring out the magic system. (This information is from the annotations from Elantris on Sanderson's site, also on the Coppermind). 

I see how your interpretation is possible, but I think otherwise. I think there was a "first generation of Aonic Magic User before Elantris". They developed the Aon writing with the help of their magical power (at this time no Shaod is required) and then began to understand the AonDor (those AonDor would be weak as pre Elantris Fix) with the improved knowledge. They discovered how to boost their magic and they build Elantris in a Rao-Shape. This began to boost the AonDor and also to change the users. They were taken by the Shaod and began Elantrians. At some unknown time after those "First Gen" left Elantris (I have an Idea about the reason but it's a possible crossover Spoiler) and the someone else discovered the great Elantris already builded... After 10 years among those people we have the "Second Gen" of Elantrians

Of course my Idea may be majesticly wrong 

On 2/8/2016 at 7:47 PM, Radiant Returned said:

Nothing concrete, but it's generally thought that those who were particularly Devoted to something (fulfilling Devotion's Intent) were taken by the Shaod. Raoden for his devotion to his country, Galloden to farming, Mareshe for art, Karata for her family, Saolin for his liege lord Eondel, etc. 

You have right about the generally opinion, but this idea was quite destroyed by Mister Sanderson himself. Who said that no body figured the Initiation yet (and he surelly know about our main idea)

Edited August 4, 2016 by Yata