Can Investure be destroyed or not? Conflicting quotes.

[Cartographer7]

Insert obligatory "Hi I'm new" intro here along with a preemptive apology for breaking rules/norms I'm not aware of. (But seriously, if there's anything I could/should be doing differently, let me know.)

So Brandon has said two apparently contradictory things in the second question here and in question 66 (part 3) here relating to whether or not investure can be destroyed. In the former quote, Brandon says that nightblood is reducing the amount of investure in the cosmere, but in the latter says that investure cannot be created or destroyed. I suppose nightblood could be a special exception to the general rule of Conservation of Investure, but that seems wrong to me because when Brandon talks about Nightblood, he speaks as if it it still follows the same rules of magic as everything else despite its unique properties. I couldn't find any other quotes on this, nor any mention in the list of questions for Brandon.

What do you guys think? 

EDIT: Please note that the second quote specifically says that Hemalurgy doesn't result in the loss of investure from the universe as a whole.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Cartographer7

[CaptainRyan he/him]

I believe that Nightblood "corrupts" Investiture. This is the dark smoke that rises from him when he is unsheathed. Nightblood is therefore not changing the total amount of Investiture in the Cosmere but he might be reducing the amount of usable Investiture in the Cosmere. On the other hand, I do not know if the corrupted Investiture slowly returns to an uncorrupted state or not.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

4 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Allomancy and Surgebinding are both end-positive, however: Investiture is from an external source (Preservation and Stormlight, respectively) and gives the practitioner power.  Any "loss" of Investiture in that manner returns to the source, as you said.  Hemalurgy, however, is end-negative: Investiture is taken directly from one person's soul, and bestowed on another's.  The victim's soul is in no shape to re-absorb the Investiture deficit in the case of a loss.  

 

EDIT: It appears that I have inadvertently hidden the only copy of my original post.  (Thought it was a double)  If any passing mods want to unhide that for the benefit of the thread, I'd greatly appreciate it.  

In the same way that Allomancy and Surgebinding are "end-positive" only from the viewpoint of the user (neither Allomancy nor Surgebinding creates new Investiture in the Cosmere) Hemalurgy is "end-negative" only from the viewpoint of the user (Hemalurgy is not destroying Investiture from the Cosmere). You are correct in saying that the user's soul does not reabsorb any lost Investiture and that is why Hemalurgy is referred to as "end-negative". That "lost" Investiture, however, does not mysteriously disappear but is, instead, absorbed back in to the Cosmere.

If you spike a soul and steal Allomantic Brass then the person spiked loses their Allomantic Brass and the spike is now Invested. If you leave the spike sitting on the ground it slowly loses that Investiture. That Investiture being lost from the spike is exactly equivalent to Stormlight draining from a sphere; it simply heads back to wherever Investiture goes. The sphere is not destroying Investiture and the spike is not destroying Investiture.

[Jondesu he/him]

My interpretation is that Nightblood is converting that Investiture into either matter or energy.  Investiture, like both matter and energy, can't be created or destroyed, but it can be converted into one of the others and vice-versa.  I don't doubt that there could be a way to convert some of that matter or energy back into Investiture, but that would probably at minimum require a Shard, and possibly only Adolnasium could do it (or it might be much easier than I'm thinking).  Just because Nightblood is decreasing the amount of Investiture in the Cosmere doesn't mean something else can't be increasing it. :-)

jW

[CaptainRyan he/him]

46 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

In addition, Hemalurgy has an entropic effect on the Investiture it steals - as Suit said in BoM, any gift stolen is weaker when implanted in a host.  There are of course workarounds (including dunking the charged spike in blood) but in the long run, Hemalurgy is ever-so-slowly draining Investiture out of the cosmere.  

I believe this interpretation is incorrect - Hemalurgically charged spikes do decay over time but that decay simply allows the Investiture to "return to the Cosmere" and is not actively removing Investiture from the Cosmere. In the same way that Breaths return to Endowment over time, the lost Investiture of Hemalurgic decay returns to [Preservation|Ruin|Harmoy].

[Vortaan he/him]

Could very well be that Nightblood just absorbs any Investiture it consumes and doesn't release it. He might be the Invested equivalent of a black hole.Also isn't the second law of thermodynamics that entropy always increases in a closed system?  

[Emerald101 he/him]

On 6/27/2016 at 11:31 AM, Cartographer7 said:

Insert obligatory "Hi I'm new" intro here along with a preemptive apology for breaking rules/norms I'm not aware of. (But seriously, if there's anything I could/should be doing differently, let me know.)

Just a little tip on posting WoB's (Words of Brandon (quotes), if you're wondering): when you find the quote you want to use, click on the link for the interview it came from, and then use ctrl + f to find your quote. Then when you post it here you can tag #n (n being the number for your quote) onto the end of the url, and that'll make a link which takes people straight to the quote. makes it a little more convenient for the rest of us.

Other than that, you did great!

[Jondesu he/him]

7 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

In addition, Hemalurgy has an entropic effect on the Investiture it steals - as Suit said in BoM, any gift stolen is weaker when implanted in a host.  There are of course workarounds (including dunking the charged spike in blood) but in the long run, Hemalurgy is ever-so-slowly draining Investiture out of the cosmere.  

Actually, like other magic systems, I would assume that "lost" investiture just returns to the Shard or source. Allomancy isn't destroying investiture, nor is Surgebinding, and I don't see what Hemalurgy does as being different. Surgebinding is actually really close: they lose Stormlight as vapor rising from their skin, but it's not destroyed, it just slips away back into the system.

jW

[Landis963 he/him]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

Actually, like other magic systems, I would assume that "lost" investiture just returns to the Shard or source. Allomancy isn't destroying investiture, nor is Surgebinding, and I don't see what Hemalurgy does as being different. Surgebinding is actually really close: they lose Stormlight as vapor rising from their skin, but it's not destroyed, it just slips away back into the system.

jW

Allomancy and Surgebinding are both end-positive, however: Investiture is from an external source (Preservation and Stormlight, respectively) and gives the practitioner power.  Any "loss" of Investiture in that manner returns to the source, as you said.  Hemalurgy, however, is end-negative: Investiture is taken directly from one person's soul, and bestowed on another's.  The victim's soul is in no shape to re-absorb the Investiture deficit in the case of a loss.  

 

EDIT: It appears that I have inadvertently hidden the only copy of my original post.  (Thought it was a double)  If any passing mods want to unhide that for the benefit of the thread, I'd greatly appreciate it.  

Edited June 27, 2016 by Landis963
Whoops

[Oversleep]

The classification of end-variable takes into context only the user and not the Investiture source. That way, if no Investiture enters or leaves the frame of reference, it's end-neutral. IInvestiture can enter frame of reference or leave it.

If more Investiture comes in than leaves, it's end-positive. For example, in Surgebinding Investiture comes in form outside, some leaves as vapor, and the rest is 'used up' in manipulation of the Surges.
If more Investiture comes out than leaves, it's end-negative.

[Jondesu he/him]

7 hours ago, Landis963 said:

Allomancy and Surgebinding are both end-positive, however: Investiture is from an external source (Preservation and Stormlight, respectively) and gives the practitioner power.  Any "loss" of Investiture in that manner returns to the source, as you said.  Hemalurgy, however, is end-negative: Investiture is taken directly from one person's soul, and bestowed on another's.  The victim's soul is in no shape to re-absorb the Investiture deficit in the case of a loss.  

 

EDIT: It appears that I have inadvertently hidden the only copy of my original post.  (Thought it was a double)  If any passing mods want to unhide that for the benefit of the thread, I'd greatly appreciate it.  

Where does the Investiture in the souls/spirits of dead people go?  Back to the Shard that created them, or else to some other pool of Investiture, or maybe just some type of "cosmere background investiture (CBR)".  Same with any part that gets ripped off by Hemalurgy and then lost, I would presume.  It doesn't have to go back to the soul, because that's not the actual source of the Investiture in the first place.

jW

[The Sovereign]

Here are a couple of relevant WoB:
Regarding Destroying Investiture:

Quote

Interview: Mar 12th, 2015

Brandon Sanderson - /r/books AMA March 2015 (Verbatim)

trevorade (Reddit)

Question 3: Is investiture finite? Hemalurgy and a Return's need to consume breath seems to show us that it can be destroyed. If it is finite, is the Cosmere's magic source doomed to the law of entropy?

Brandon Sanderson (Reddit)

3. Investiture can not be created or destroyed. It follows it's own version of the laws of Thermodynamics.

Regarding Nightblood:

Quote

Interview: Mar 4th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Leinton (Paraphrased)

Leinton

Does Nightblood possibly rip souls out of people?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood consumes Investiture, including the spark of life.

Tags

nightblood, investiture,

Quote

Interview: Dec 12th, 2015

Barnes & Noble Orem

Question

So, is Nightblood reducing the amount of Investiture in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. At a very slow rate, but yes.

Tags

Nightblood, investiture, cosmere,

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Iron Eyes
I know these are addressed in the opening post but I thought it would help to have them directly in the thread for people on Mobile.