The Second Band

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already as I couldn't see a topic about it. So, I was rereading parts of BoM for things I'd missed, when I came upon the bit where Wax was looking over the Sovereign's statue and he noticed the Aluminium belt but dismisses it as he'd already tested it for Investiture and as a result, he assumes that both Bands were just fused into the spear point.

I however disagree. I think that the Alu belt was in fact a metal mind as it seems rather odd to leave a metal belt on a statue in the middle of only Harmony knows where, especially one that feruchemically stores Identity.

Edited June 23, 2016 by ParadoxSpren

[Yata he/him]

30 minutes ago, ParadoxSpren said:

I don't know if this has been mentioned already as I couldn't see a topic about it. So, I was rereading parts of BoM for things I'd missed, when I came upon the bit where Wax was looking over the Sovereign's statue and he noticed the Aluminium belt but dismisses it as he'd already tested it for Investiture and as a result, he assumes that both Bands were just fused into the spear point.

I however disagree. I think that the Alu belt was in fact a metal mind as it seems rather odd to leave a metal belt on a statue in the middle of only Harmony knows where, especially one that feruchemically stores Identity.

He may be a diversive.

Giving some Metal accessories to the statues, made the Spear seems less out of place (He was a Godlike Emperor with every metallic Arts some metal on him is quite legit)

If someone checks the Belt, he may discover anything odd and procede with his journey (The Beld is more reachable than the Spear I presume).

Edited June 23, 2016 by Yata

[Young Bard he/him]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

He may be a diversive.

Giving some Metal accessories to the statues, made the Spear seems less out of place (He was a Godlike Emperor with every metallic Arts some metal on him is quite legit)

If someone checks the Belt, he may discover anything odd and procede with his journey (The Beld is more reachable than the Spear I presume).

Seeing as the spear was pointing towards the ground, hence why Wayne was able to kick it off, I doubt it is.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

My main point is; the Belt WAS a metal mind, one that stored presumably Kelsier's identity and one that is now empty, hence why Wax couldn't sense any Investiture

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, ParadoxSpren said:

My main point is; the Belt WAS a metal mind, one that stored presumably Kelsier's identity and one that is now empty, hence why Wax couldn't sense any Investiture

But I don't understand. why the belt had to be a Metalmind in the past. It's possible it's was just metal, not an old AlluminiumMind without his old Charge.

I see no point of the Belt as Metalmind or if it was a Metalmind it's may be simple to avoid putting Alluminium in the Bands to make its design more easy.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

13 hours ago, ParadoxSpren said:

My main point is; the Belt WAS a metal mind, one that stored presumably Kelsier's identity and one that is now empty, hence why Wax couldn't sense any Investiture

I am with @Yata on this one: How do we know the belt was a metalmind? It could just be a decoy item.

[Oversleep]

But to make the aluminiummind unkeyed, Kelsier would have to simultaneously store... Identity somewhere else... So it was untappable anyway and we don't even know whether it would be recognizable.

On one hand, we know that one Full Feruchemists can feel the others metalminds but not access them at that while burning the Mistborn can feel it the same way.

On another hand, to check whether the goldmind is metalmind, Wax gives it to Wayne, so maybe without having power tied to the specific metal (the power being either Allomantic or Feruchemical) you can't feel it's charge?

[Yata he/him]

7 hours ago, Oversleep said:

On one hand, we know that one Full Feruchemists can feel the others metalminds but not access them at that while burning the Mistborn can feel it the same way.

On another hand, to check whether the goldmind is metalmind, Wax gives it to Wayne, so maybe without having power tied to the specific metal (the power being either Allomantic or Feruchemical) you can't feel it's charge?

Yes you have to be capable of manipulate Investiture in that kind of metal (with Allomancy or Feruchemy) to check the actual Feruchemical charge. But for every other metal than Alluminium a Steel/Iron Ferring may discover metalminds for the effort he need to push/pull on them.

PS: Probably an Alluminiumind can't be unkeyed for its own definition.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

We don't know for sure, but it seems rather an odd choice for a decoy, especially when feruchemists are commonly depicted using arm/wristbands as metalminds (hence Bands of Mourning) not to mention that you could have chosen a dozen other options to leave as decoys/treasure, like a gold one as its the least likely to be burnt. With what we know of Brandon's writing, it just seems...too odd....

idk, I could be seeing Shades in Shadows after all

[Pathfinder]

So just something funny that popped in my head. If it was intended to be a metal mind, then it is a very impractical one. First if you actually use it as a belt, then you cannot tap or store it as it is holding up your pants. You would need to reach down and touch it to tap or store. The reason for bands and earrings is that they are always touching your skin. The spear head makes sense to trick people, but the belt seems kind of obtuse. Then there is the idea that your metal mind is basically a metal hoola hoop. Finally might be pretty difficult to pull off the statue. The spear head can be broken off, but the belt has to be cut, and then peeled off. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Yata he/him]

I though about this mysterious belt for a while and although I think it is just a decoration. I have created a scenario in which Kelsier can actually uses an aluminum belt for meaningful purpose (just as hypoteis).

He may avoid to incorporate Alluminium in Bands to made a casual replication of the Bands more hard. I explain myself better, someone may with some incredible brave/stupid plan, manage to touch the Bands while someone else owned the Artifact. With a casual touch, someone with enough pratice, may store some (or all) the "SpiritWeb" in another NicrosilMind on his body. Probably this guy will be killed by Bands's owner and his new Nicrosilmind (witch contains quite Fullborn power) are useless because it's tied to his Identity... And the Bands are still the only source of Godlike Powe (like Copyright's revenge XD)

Edit: I am an idiot, everyone who manage to try such foolish plan, have just to carry on himself some Alluminium to avoid this hypotetical protection 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Yata

[Argent he/him]

I thought - though I am not sure why - that Wax went back and checked the belt. It would be supremely stupid of him not to.

[Yata he/him]

On 24/6/2016 at 6:59 PM, Argent said:

I thought - though I am not sure why - that Wax went back and checked the belt. It would be supremely stupid of him not to.

Yes he did just before to return in the capital. He feel no Feruchemical Charge.

Quote

As the Malwish crew prepared the ship for travel, Wax stood before the statue of the Lord Ruler, with that single spike in his eye. He’d checked the belt, which was aluminum. No kind of charge. If there had ever been two bracers, he had to assume they’d been made into this one spearhead.

But to be honest I don't even know how may works tap someone else Alluminiumind.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Yata

[Jazzy Kandra she/her]

On 6/24/2016 at 1:15 PM, Yata said:

Yes he did just before to return in the capital. He feel no Feruchemical Charge.

But to be honest I don't even know how may work tap someone else Alluminiumind.

As long as Wax was holding the Spear, he should have had no problem checking the belt for Investiture, even if he couldn't tap it (because it's supposedly keyed to Sovereign).

I imagine that, in all likelihood, the belt really was for decoration. Sovereign is that much of a cad. We should expect him to hang a bloody expensive belt on a statue in the middle of nowhere, it's a bit like throwing a rude gesture at the wealthy/nobility...

Red herrings happen; or in this case, characterization. It's just another hint towards who did this.

[Yata he/him]

9 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

As long as Wax was holding the Spear, he should have had no problem checking the belt for Investiture, even if he couldn't tap it (because it's supposedly keyed to Sovereign).

You have right, He have to feel foreign charge, if there is some of it.

In the end my point about Alluminiummind is still right, but I forgot that a Feruchemist may fell someone else's charge also if He can't tap it.

My bad 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Yata

[Oversleep]

12 minutes ago, Kandra-in-disguise said:

As long as Wax was holding the Spear, he should have had no problem checking the belt for Investiture, even if he couldn't tap it (because it's supposedly keyed to Sovereign).

We don't actually know whether he could. We don't know what charges the Survivor's Spearhead's nicrosilminds hold... although if there is no nicrosil charge for aluminium Feruchemy, then after Spearhead runs out of nicrosil charges it cannot be made unkeyed again. Nicrosil could be refilled by Compounding, but no longer unkeyed.

I can see arguments for both cases: that there is the charge and there isn't. So it could be used only once, so Kelsier doesn't have a whole planet of Fullborns running around and to make it possible to kickstart medallion production (so yeah, a whole planet of Fullborns).

Edited June 26, 2016 by Oversleep

[Yata he/him]

55 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

We don't actually know whether he could. We don't know what charges the Survivor's Spearhead's nicrosilminds hold... although if there is no nicrosil charge for aluminium Feruchemy, then after Spearhead runs out of nicrosil charges it cannot be made unkeyed again. Nicrosil could be refilled by Compounding, but no longer unkeyed.

I can see arguments for both cases: that there is the charge and there isn't. So it could be used only once, so Kelsier doesn't have a whole planet of Fullborns running around and to make it possible to kickstart medallion production (so yeah, a whole planet of Fullborns).

Actually as I said before. Someone need just a bit of Alluminium took from whaterver he want to overcome this issues.

It's a rather weak protection ... I thought in the same way before to notice the flaw in my argument

Edited June 26, 2016 by Yata

[Oversleep]

3 minutes ago, Yata said:

Actually as I said before. Someone need just a bit of Alluminium took from whaterver he want to overcome this issues.

It's a rather weak protection ... I thought in the same way before to notice the flaw in my argument

Yeah, even if there are no aluminium Feruchemy medallions in existence, the whole issue would be dealt with by simply giving the Spearhead to some Aluminium Ferring who makes a copy and then the mass production starts. So unless Kelsier's plan is to secretly abduct all of the Trueselfs, I'd say there is aluminium Feruchemy in the nicrosilmind of the Spearhead.

[Yata he/him]

37 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Yeah, even if there are no aluminium Feruchemy medallions in existence, the whole issue would be dealt with by simply giving the Spearhead to some Aluminium Ferring who makes a copy and then the mass production starts. So unless Kelsier's plan is to secretly abduct all of the Trueselfs, I'd say there is aluminium Feruchemy in the nicrosilmind of the Spearhead.

And we know that for definition they have way to gift F-Alluminium or the whole Medallion tech can't work

[Oversleep]

48 minutes ago, Yata said:

And we know that for definition they have way to gift F-Alluminium or the whole Medallion tech can't work

The thing is, how do you simultaneously store away aluminium (to make unsealed metalmind) and store aluminium Feruchemy in nicrosil to make a medallion gifitng aluminium Feruchemy?

That's... THAT'S WHAT EXCISORS ARE! THEY REUSE THE SPIKES WHICH GIFT ALUMINIUM FERUCHEMY SO THEY CAN PRODUCE MEDALLIONS! I SOLVED IT!

Edited June 26, 2016 by Oversleep

[Yata he/him]

16 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

The thing is, how do you simultaneously store away aluminium (to make unsealed metalmind) and store aluminium Feruchemy in nicrosil to make a medallion gifitng aluminium Feruchemy?

That's... THAT'S WHAT EXCISORS ARE! THEY REUSE THE SPIKES WHICH GIFT ALUMINIUM FERUCHEMY SO THEY CAN PRODUCE MEDALLIONS! I SOLVED IT!

Or (but this solution needs the knowledge of Hemalurgy) You spike a lot of People to stole them their Identity and the survivors (Cosmere inside joke XD) have probably little or no Identity to use quite Feruchemy without imprint any Identity in the Metalminds.