neongrey Posted June 20, 2016 Report Share Posted June 20, 2016 Sorry I didn't get as much reading/commenting done as I would have liked last week, I got kind of tied up. Hoping to still do some catching up, I've got some more free time this week. Anyway, previously: The city of Ilidria has been drained by a decades-long war. The last daughter of the a faded merchant family, seventeen-year-old Lasila Vahendra hears that the living goddess Alia has died on the same day that her brother announces he's been called away to the war zone. Faced with the prospect of needing to take care of herself years before she expected, she looks into the family affairs only to find herself effectively paralyzed: none of her plans can be enacted for years. A different sort of opportunity arises when she attends to the fallen goddess' form: a priestess invites her to celebrate the goddess' rebirth in a month. Last time: Lasila gets fitted for a dress, and after fully considering the nature of the celebration, commits to her focus on mining every opportunity she can from it. This time: Varinen's patience finally wears thin, and he and Lasila argue one last time before he leaves. Savae Alevrin, jeweler, archmage and priest of the Envari moon-goddess, works on a commissioned piece. Next time: Well, the escort Varinen arranged sure doesn't talk about swords... Notes: -Writing this summary made me consider that it might work better if the initial bank scene from a couple weeks ago might do better before Lasila gets the offer from Maranthe-- have her be denied on her own plans and then get that particular opportunity. Thoughts? -While this is the first of Savae we're seeing this go-round, I'm looking on inserting a scene with them (and another character, who I'll call out on his first appearance & also some related stuff when it comes up) earlier on. That said, aside from rejiggering this scene to maybe be a little less introductory, it won't affect this scene too much. -So Savae is a lot more immediately hooked into these initial goings-on than Lasila is, and they don't circumlocute in narration the way she does so I'm thinking this should present a useful angle in a lot of ways. -Since I am committed to the singular they rather than a neopronoun of some sort, I am watching sentence structure like a hawk here; if something looks funky with my theys please let me know. Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon he/him Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Specific questions: -Writing this summary made me consider that it might work better if the initial bank scene from a couple weeks ago might do better before Lasila gets the offer from Maranthe-- have her be denied on her own plans and then get that particular opportunity. Thoughts? --Yes, I think this can be used to develop Lasila some more and show that she's trying different methods. -While this is the first of Savae we're seeing this go-round, I'm looking on inserting a scene with them (and another character, who I'll call out on his first appearance & also some related stuff when it comes up) earlier on. That said, aside from rejiggering this scene to maybe be a little less introductory, it won't affect this scene too much. --I didn't read these notes before reading the submission, so I was caught off guard at the sudden POV shift. I didn't think it was too introductory, but I would have liked to see some sign of Savae earlier. Coming in at this point when Lasila is settled as the MC comes as a bit of a shock. -So Savae is a lot more immediately hooked into these initial goings-on than Lasila is, and they don't circumlocute in narration the way she does so I'm thinking this should present a useful angle in a lot of ways. --I enjoyed Savae a lot more than Lasila, honestly. Savae is dynamic and proactive, where Lasila...mainly does housework. -Since I am committed to the singular they rather than a neopronoun of some sort, I am watching sentence structure like a hawk here; if something looks funky with my theys please let me know. --Got thrown out a lot by this. I know this is an accepted usage now, but it's very hard to distinguish between them/they referring to a singular person and them/they referring to a group. It's like "you" singular/plural, but even worse. I don't think I saw anything wrong, but I was having trouble parsing sentences as it was. Notes while reading pg 2: "In that moment, all she could do was hate him." --This is a very strong emotion suddenly. Why does she hate him? She's voluntarily fixing him a grand meal, if I'm reading correctly.--ok, you explain this a bit more in the next paragraphs, it's still very a very strong reaction contrasted to descriptions of going to the store, making dinner etc. pg 3: new POV. Interesting. I didn't know there was going to be one. pg 3/4: getting caught up on the use of "they." Is this gender neutral or a divided mind of some sort. I'll see if it comes clear in the remainder of the submission. --I'm assuming gender neutral. --A short POV, and I'm not yet sure how this relates to everything else, but Savae so far has caught my interest more than Lasila. pg 7: "she spent the time reviewing tax codes. It probably said something about her that the intricacies of them did anything other than bore her out of her skull" --Uh, yeah. I think this is about the most fitting description of Lasila so far... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted June 22, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 yeah, I think bringing savae in earlier will help clarify certain critical aspects of lasila's character; savae is enough of an outsider to make clear just how much lasila is a product of her society. and that rearrangement on the early order of operations should help kick lasila right from the get-go, along with some adjustments to go with the tweaking; five years to a seventeen-year-old is a really long time especially when it's her personal ambitions for her future on the line. lasila is definitely up to quite a lot of things right now, she just engages from within her own society and place therein, and if that's not coming through, there's stuff i can do about that. thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kais Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 Overall: I enjoyed the new POV with Savae, but was a little disappointed this chapter didn't just jump right to the orgy. I like the interludes with Lasila and Varinen, but I think they'd have had more impact earlier. At this point in the narrative I'd like to see the tension continuously moving forward. I'm not a big epic fantasy fan, though, so that could very just well be personal preference. Good read, regardless. I do agree with Mandamon - I enjoy Savae much more than Lasila for the same reasons Mandamon pointed out. Your questions: Bank scene: I'm not sure about that. I don't think I have strong feelings on this question either way Savae: I like that they took a bit to get introduced. It allowed us to get really involved with Lasila before introducing a new character. Works well. They pronoun: working well. No grammar issues. As I go: - copper paint on her face? Is there a base layer? That might not look great the next day, what with the greening and all - page 2: The inner thoughts about Varinen put Lasila much more in focus. This would have been great to have in the first chapter. I have more empathy for her character now, and care a lot more about Varinen. - page 3: She doesn't have faith in him? It seems more like she just has abandonment issues. Are you trying to show Varinen misunderstanding Lasila? - page 5: I really enjoy Savae and the use of the 'they' pronoun. Solid section 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted June 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Oh geez this isn't epic in the slightest-- we're working on much more personal scales here, which would be why the motion has primarily been very personal, Lasila's mixed feelings about her brother, etc. If this were epic, we'd be following Varinen, actually... 2 hours ago, kaisa said: - copper paint on her face? Is there a base layer? That might not look great the next day, what with the greening and all More of a metallic fluid lipstick, but it's definitely applied like paint. It doesn't last that long, as we'll... see later. hehe. 2 hours ago, kaisa said: - page 2: The inner thoughts about Varinen put Lasila much more in focus. This would have been great to have in the first chapter. I have more empathy for her character now, and care a lot more about Varinen. Part of the issue is this is very much a slow burn building up to the fight on both their parts (it's effectively just repeating stuff from the first chapter on a number of counts)-- I'm definitely looking to emphasize more what's going on there in the earlier bits but the very fact that he's been politely tolerating her guilt trips-- and, frankly, attempts to undermine his own confidence-- for two weeks solid until right now is modestly important about him. 2 hours ago, kaisa said: - page 3: She doesn't have faith in him? It seems more like she just has abandonment issues. Are you trying to show Varinen misunderstanding Lasila? Well, she's definitely got abandonment issues, but she's certainly collapsed them down, in this case, to thinking he's going to die where he, with a better awareness of his own capabilities than her, is quite convinced that he's going to live through this. She doesn't have faith that he's good enough to succeed-- even if he is the single greatest living swordsman of his generation (which he is), and certainly that rankles on him. It's kind of a case where 'okay you don't want me to go because everyone we've ever known who did died' doesn't do anything for anyone because that's a given. So, misunderstanding, no, but they do have different understandings of the situation and different goals in this conversation. His kid sister has been not terribly subtly, for two weeks solid, suggesting that she thinks he's marching to his death. 2 hours ago, kaisa said: - page 5: I really enjoy Savae and the use of the 'they' pronoun. Solid section Savae is a fun character, but they're a tricky one, because they're very much just one cog in a lot of moving parts; i could have gone with a few different POVs for their plotline but I needed the foreign one. And they're very bitter about a lot of the things Lasila delights in, which should in turn help clarify just how biased her POV is. And Savae brings us far down out of the upper-class machinations that Lasila goes for. They cross paths occasionally, but they're neither friends, nor working for the same goals, nor allies at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted June 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Like, if something is seeming a bit off about this argument, then that's what's intended here-- she's very much focusing everything on him, and how what he's doing is affecting her and painting it as her being civil, and her narration is drawing him as being unreasonable. She's got abandoment issues driving this in spades, to be sure, and she's framing it in terms that are supposed to draw sympathy, but she's about 90% in the wrong here-- she's a manipulative narrator is what she is. Not deceptive, per se, but she's probably got some awareness that she's being a jerk here (and working that in some more might help, too, I think) Authorially what's being gone for here is to keep the reader mostly sympathetic, right up until you hit whatever point you hit when you look back at her actions and go 'wow, she's a horrible person'. So it's kind of a tricky line to walk with these early convos before he goes, and I'm missing my mark a little bit, I think, haha. Edited June 23, 2016 by neongrey 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski he/him Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Interesting submission, it starts rather slowly with Lissa’s scene. We get some further background, but I'm not entirely enthralled. I feel that this could be thinned out. The next scene with Savae confused me at first because I had a moment at the beginning where I thought she was the dress-marker, I think because of the similarly of their names. I don’t see a reason why their names cannot be my recognisably different. Some physical description also would have marked them apart. Saying she has an Envari face means nothing to me that I can remember. I did like some of the reveals in this scene however, which show some really nasty goings-on behind big events that have happened to date. Certainly, there is the implication of more dastardly events to come – which is good. Back to Lissa and her scene with Varinen. There was some real emotion here, and I suppose it works all the better for the antagonism of their earlier encounter. Some might say it was melodramatic, and they might be right, but I was okay with it, I thought it fitted the style of the story. If it is slightly ‘soapy’, I don’t think it suffers unduly from it. A line that did bother me somewhat was this one “She supposed she'd need to get some friends of her own at some point”. I put it up here rather than in the detail below, because it seems to me it goes quite fundamentally to Lissa’s character. Does she really have not friends or even acquaintances outside her brother? This seems awfully unlikely. I know that is not the same as saying she has never had any friends, but now I'm moved to ask what happened to all her childhood friends. In summary, I still enjoyed this. A hidden threat was revealed and there was an emotional scene between Lissa and her brother. I'm still on board. I would note that, the more I read, the more I think that taking a good 15% other words out through tidying and judicious trimming would really help the story. <R> --------------------------------------- “the lot of them made her feel as though she was the most important” – I would suggest ‘every one of them’, or something similar, and less crude than ‘the lot’. “at least in the districts near enough to her” – This read awkwardly for me – something like ‘close to home’ would be clearer. “A few public houses seemed to have events planned” – You use ‘seem’ twice close together. Currently, I'm trying to train myself not to use words like this. They are imprecise and lack confidence and directness. Did the pubs have events planned or not. I think clarity reads better. “quite likely the last time he'd see his friends alive” – Eh? How so? Have I forgotten something? If it’s Varinen, then he’s not going to see his friends when he’s dead, so it must be the friends. Is this because of the impending threat of war? I don’t think you’ve trailed the danger enough to drop in a comment like this, I have insufficient context for it. “Lasila tossed Mekesh the ears” – I found the description her unclear. I thought she was considering what animal to buy, then suddenly she already has it and is cooking it? Also, I found all this talk about the cooking unnecessary and disjointed. I'm willing to swallow all the detail about the dresses and the minutiae about her training, but sometimes I think you go too far and could cut out some elements. “The bastard didn't even open his eyes.” – This is too far, for me. I feel it’s out of character for her. “You know I can't stay here. Not and do my duty to the family in the only way I can.” I’m struggling a bit with the vehemence of her reaction to her brother. I can understand the reasoning, but as an only child, I have a hard time identifying with such hatred for a close family member. “They laughed to themself themselves, thinking of a joke.” – No? There is an implication of the singular here, I think. At first, I confused Savae with Sirie. The names are very similar, the same in form. I fell this is unnecessarily confusing. “He smiled at her, of course, and got back to his feet, sheathing his sword. "Of course, Lissa," he said,” – repetition. “It probably said something about her that the their intricacies of them did anything something other than bore her out of her skull” – even this simplified phrasing still seems awkward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted June 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 33 minutes ago, Robinski said: Interesting submission, it starts rather slowly with Lissa’s scene. We get some further background, but I'm not entirely enthralled. I feel that this could be thinned out. The next scene with Savae confused me at first because I had a moment at the beginning where I thought she was the dress-marker, I think because of the similarly of their names. I don’t see a reason why their names cannot be my recognisably different. Some physical description also would have marked them apart. Saying she has an Envari face means nothing to me that I can remember. I did like some of the reveals in this scene however, which show some really nasty goings-on behind big events that have happened to date. Certainly, there is the implication of more dastardly events to come – which is good. Human, actually, and that might be a bit better of a substitution; most people in the story would use them interchangeably but the one's a nationality and the other is a species, and that will make it clearer right off what the operative differences are. 39 minutes ago, Robinski said: Back to Lissa and her scene with Varinen. There was some real emotion here, and I suppose it works all the better for the antagonism of their earlier encounter. Some might say it was melodramatic, and they might be right, but I was okay with it, I thought it fitted the style of the story. If it is slightly ‘soapy’, I don’t think it suffers unduly from it. Yeah, they are both being a bit melodramatic (I think she actually uses the word there), so yeah, I don't mind if it seems that way. 42 minutes ago, Robinski said: A line that did bother me somewhat was this one “She supposed she'd need to get some friends of her own at some point”. I put it up here rather than in the detail below, because it seems to me it goes quite fundamentally to Lissa’s character. Does she really have not friends or even acquaintances outside her brother? This seems awfully unlikely. I know that is not the same as saying she has never had any friends, but now I'm moved to ask what happened to all her childhood friends. Yeaaaah, she's been kind of a shut-in since their mom died and she's sort of hamming it up there but there's probably a better way of expressing she thinks she needs to get out more. Possibly even saying just that. 49 minutes ago, Robinski said: In summary, I still enjoyed this. A hidden threat was revealed and there was an emotional scene between Lissa and her brother. I'm still on board. I would note that, the more I read, the more I think that taking a good 15% other words out through tidying and judicious trimming would really help the story. hahaha yeah is there ever anything that wouldn't be hurt by cuts? Another one of those things I want to wait until I have the whole thing done before I really get into, though. Still, 15% isn't a bad projected loss, hehe. 53 minutes ago, Robinski said: “quite likely the last time he'd see his friends alive” – Eh? How so? Have I forgotten something? If it’s Varinen, then he’s not going to see his friends when he’s dead, so it must be the friends. Is this because of the impending threat of war? I don’t think you’ve trailed the danger enough to drop in a comment like this, I have insufficient context for it. Mostly it's Lasila projecting, which I should work in more. There's reasons why Varinen's not terribly concerned about the danger, or someone else close to the situation that she'll talk to isn't either. It's a tricky line, because she (mostly) thinks she's being reasonable and is narrating to appear as if she is but it should be at least somewhat discernible that she is not, in fact, being reasonable. 1 hour ago, Robinski said: “They laughed to themself themselves, thinking of a joke.” – No? There is an implication of the singular here, I think. At first, I confused Savae with Sirie. The names are very similar, the same in form. I fell this is unnecessarily confusing. Themself is correct. I am honestly not going to sweat the name; narration uses given name (Ilea, where I do have some concerns of similarity with the feminine-priestly honorific Ilia, but nobody's said anything about that one so I'm going to assume we're fine there) and Savae's going to come in before, when I get to revisions, which should clean it up the rest of the way. Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 6 hours ago, neongrey said: I am honestly not going to sweat the name; narration uses given name (Ilea, where I do have some concerns of similarity with the feminine-priestly honorific Ilia, but nobody's said anything about that one so I'm going to assume we're fine there) and Savae's going to come in before, when I get to revisions, which should clean it up the rest of the way. Thanks! Actually, I think someone did note the confusion between character names all the different honourifics in a previous chapter. It's just that there are so many honourifics that Ilia just didn't get a specific mention. For the sake of clarity, personally I feel that having both Ilia and Ilea makes it seem that one of them is an oft-repeated typo. As for Savae, I like the character, but since you're advertising... them... as the foreign POV, I suggest that the character could benefit from a name that is obviously different from the others, as an additional highlight of their immigrant status. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted June 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Ilea Sirie's name is probably negotiable; she's background, mostly. Envari using aelin names says something very important about entrenched aelin imperialism, and their entire pov is focused on the fact that they are foreign in a place that does not welcome them, so I don't feel a need to lose that aspect. Do you have a concern with Savae being ungendered? I notice you offset the pronoun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path he/him Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 No problem, no concern, just not very used to it. And there's the whole plural thing... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neongrey Posted June 24, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 If singular they was good enough for Chaucer through Austen, it's good enough for me! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spieles Posted June 27, 2016 Report Share Posted June 27, 2016 This is a random aside - but I deeply associate "chokers" as a 90's anachronistic fad - and they take me out of the story. I think with the dress here, instead of saying like a choker, you can just say "a high neck" or "high collar." In the above paragraph you say the city is subdued, but then in next you say... This year? Maybe it was the heat but the handbills pasted up on walls were few and far between, and the markets seemed subdued. A few public houses seemed to have events planned but nothing rivaled her memories. It could be nostalgia talking, of course. It could be. I would consider cutting this second one. Wait - why is Varinen leaving? I'm still confused as to what is the specific reason? I think based upon the next paragraph that he might be joining the army? But why is he doing that if he has an underaged sister? Or is she technically an adult now? Even then, with the way their society treats women - and the priestess not feeling its safe for her to walk alone to a public temple - I feel I'm lacking context here. Right now, his response feels very immature - like "I'mm do what I want" instead of a brotherly "you are old enough now, you know how to defend yourself, and if we're ever going to get ahead, I need to take some risks. This is my dream and I've received a once in a lifetime opportunity to pursue it - I can't let this pass me by. So be strong for me, little sis." I like the magic being used to make the mask. This doesn't sound like Lasilla's mask... so who it it for? I'm very very curious. I suspect it's for the new living goddess that might be anointed? Varinen is much more likable in this next scene when he's talking about raising her as a 15 year old. Remind me what the war (peace?) talks are and what Varinen's role is with a few extra details for context. I don't think I missed them during my reading unless they were a bit buried in the prose. p. 6 - Varinen says his sister will go far - but HOW? There seem to be next to no opportunities for women - women who do well are exceptions - and Lasilla doesn't even have money for school at this point. I might cut this paragraph - my instinct was to skim - and Varinen's leaving is much more interesting: On the other hand, she'd managed to wrangle this invitation, so she probably wasn't doing too badly in that regard. It was just contacts that she lacked, connections. She could get those. She just needed to somehow find hours in the day to do everything. But it was evening and a holiday, and any chance to do that was long since gone, so she spent the time reviewing tax codes. It probably said something about her that the intricacies of them did anything other than bore her out of her skull, but she opted not to consider that. Okay, so this scene is def essential but I feel like you could clarify Varinen's reasons for leaving and his expectations for his sister while he's gone - not that she'll follow them, but there's no talk of marriage or how to protect herself - when those seem to be the big issues for her personally. Also, I'd expect her brother to give her more background about her escort for the ball - some tips on how to make the event go well, etc. Anyway, curious to meet the escort. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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