Shardplate Enchancements

[CaptainRyan]

On another thread there was a discussion about whether shardplate enhanced the wearer's reflexes in a way similar to pewter burning Allomancers or if shardplate only enhanced strength. I started a re-re-re-re-re-read (I think that is correct - this is, as far as I can remember, my sixth read through haha) of the Way of Kings yesterday and came across this:

page 183/1008 of the kindle version of the Way of Kings:

Quote

One's muscles reacted with increased speed, strength, and dexterity when wearing the armor [...]

Also, on the next page (184/1008) there is this line:

Quote

[Dalinar] never seemed surprised by the strength or speed the armor lent him.

I submit to the community these quotes as proof that shardplate does not merely enhance one's strength but also enhances the speed and dexterity of the user. Unlike pewter, however, shardplate is not instinctive and requires practice and training. With the proper training one can achieve battlefield reflexes far above that of a normal human.

[Pathfinder]

You are still moving in armor that is impossible to move unaided/unpowered. Being able to be stronger and faster in armor, still does not make you faster than a pewter burner. It makes you faster than someone else in armor without the strength and speed boost

[+hwiles]

The first quote is enough of an argument for me; muscles reacting faster and more dexterously definitely implies that the armor is enhancing the user in ways other than simply augmenting their strength.  Sounds to me like it's feeding stormlight into the person wearing the armor.

An interesting question for Sanderson would be:  Do the gems in shardplate drain faster if someone is wearing it and not moving, versus if the plate was laying around unused.  

[CaptainRyan]

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You are still moving in armor that is impossible to move unaided/unpowered. Being able to be stronger and faster in armor, still does not make you faster than a pewter burner. It makes you faster than someone else in armor without the strength and speed boost

Whether shardplate's enhancements are > (greater than), < (less than) or = (equal to) a pewter burner's is somewhat impossible to determine without a direct confrontation between the two or a WoB. My post did not make any direct comparison between to the two but, instead, highlighted the fact that shardplate is not merely a strength enhancement but also improves the speed and dexterity of the wearer. You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion as to how the enhancement shardplate provides compares to pewter but I think the provided quotes make it quite clear that shardplate does provide more than just strength to the wearer; it also provides enhanced speed and enhanced dexterity.

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Whether shardplate's enhancements are > (greater than), < (less than) or = (equal to) a pewter burner's is somewhat impossible to determine without a direct confrontation between the two or a WoB. My post did not make any direct comparison between to the two but, instead, highlighted the fact that shardplate is not merely a strength enhancement but also improves the speed and dexterity of the wearer. You are, of course, welcome to your own opinion as to how the enhancement shardplate provides compares to pewter but I think the provided quotes make it quite clear that shardplate does provide more than just strength to the wearer; it also provides enhanced speed and enhanced dexterity.

I am not disputing a speed enhancement, nor even a reflex. What I am stating is these enhancements are still lifting or moving an incredibly heavy suit of armor. That weight has to be taken into account. Unfortunately I do not have my kindle on me to quote the scenes where Dalinar has to build up to a running speed to outrun his honor guard and other such examples. A person in full plate is going to be more lumbering than a person with no armor at all. The strength, and speed enhancements are to compensate for this. But till I provide the quotes (which I will), you are right it is my opinion. I am off from work the remainder of the week, so it shouldn't be long before I follow up. 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan]

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

[snip]

An interesting question for Sanderson would be:  Do the gems in shardplate drain faster if someone is wearing it and not moving, versus if the plate was laying around unused.  

This got me thinking - when shardplate is not being worn does it drain the gems faster than if the gems were just sitting on a table or in a wall-mount? Do they store shardplate with infused gems inside it or do they only put fresh gems in when a battle is coming up? And then, of course, your question: if a shardplate wearer was simply standing still would the gems drain at the same rate as a shardplate wearer who was exerting themselves in some way? Good stuff!

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I am not disputing a speed enhancement, nor even a reflex. What I am stating is these enhancements are still lifting or moving an incredibly heavy suit of armor. That weight has to be taken into account. Unfortunately I do not have my kindle on me to quote the scenes where Dalinar has to build up to a running speed to outrun his honor guard and other such examples. A person in full plate is going to be more lumbering than a person with no armor at all. The strength, and speed enhancements are to compensate for this. But till I provide the quotes (which I will), you are right it is my opinion. I am off from work the remainder of the week, so it shouldn't be long before I follow up. 

The weight of the armor is certainly a factor but the strength enhancement is such that it more than compensates for the weight.

page 187/1008 from the kindle version of the Way of Kings (emphasis mine):

Quote

Dalinar leaped - Plate-assisted legs propelling him up some eight feet - and grabbed a handhold in the stone. With a heave, he pulled himself up, the Plate lending him the strength of many men.

The strength enhancement allows Dalinar a standing vertical of 8+ feet and also gives him the strength to use one hand to lift his dead weight (which includes the weight of the armor) up and over the ledge.

Certainly the plate is heavy and that would slow a person to some degree but it seems pretty clear to me that shardplate provides strength that not only negates the weight of the armor but gives the wearer greater (relative and absolute) strength/speed/dexterity as compared to an unarmored normal human. Shardplate would allow someone, with training, to move faster, react quicker, and, overall, be harder, better, faster, stronger (Daft Punk reference woot woot!) than a normal human soldier. Whether or not this enhanced speed, strength and dexterity is equivalent to a Thug is, as I mentioned earlier and in my opinion, impossible to determine at this point.

 

edit: Weirdly, everything I typed showed up twice so I removed the repeat stuff.

Edited June 14, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[+hwiles]

As a minor side note, I would speculate that they almost definitely store the plate with more-or-less fully infused gems and replace them as needed since, one, if the plate isn't being used by its owner its often being used for training purposes, and two, who would dare risk letting their plate run dry if they could help it? (People who own shardplate tend to be crazy rich)

I back calculated some numbers for the rates at which a handful of different allomantic metals burn some time ago, I'll see if I can come up with something similar for shardplate, though I'm not sure there's been enough information published yet for the results to be meaningful.

[Patrick Star]

The armor definitely enhances the user.

If it didn't, Renarin would have multiple traumatic brain injuries from jumping off the roof.

[CaptainRyan]

15 minutes ago, Patrick Star said:

The armor definitely enhances the user.

If it didn't, Renarin would have multiple traumatic brain injuries from jumping off the roof.

Indeed, the armor seems to offer some sort of cushioning enhancement as well; it is kind of like a fantasy-level equivalent of the "inertial dampeners" used in sci-fi books to overcome the fact that accelerating (or decelerating) a starship (at a reasonable pace) to fractions of C [the speed of light] would turn squishy humans into bloody pulps. Shardplate somehow negates the damage of Renarin's hard impact with the ground in a way that no normal helmet/armor combo could hope to mimic.

[Landis963]

It's funny, when you look at it like this Shardplate becomes the fantasy equivalent of power armor.  Strength booster, Reflex booster, Speed booster, inexplicable ability to avoid G-force related injury, complete immunity to any other type of injury.   

[asterion137]

9 hours ago, CaptainRyan said:

On another thread there was a discussion about whether shardplate enhanced the wearer's reflexes in a way similar to pewter burning Allomancers or if shardplate only enhanced strength. I started a re-re-re-re-re-read (I think that is correct - this is, as far as I can remember, my sixth read through haha) of the Way of Kings yesterday and came across this:

page 183/1008 of the kindle version of the Way of Kings:

Also, on the next page (184/1008) there is this line:

I submit to the community these quotes as proof that shardplate does not merely enhance one's strength but also enhances the speed and dexterity of the user. Unlike pewter, however, shardplate is not instinctive and requires practice and training. With the proper training one can achieve battlefield reflexes far above that of a normal human.

If there is a boost in speed, I think it's either a boost in muscular speed only (not mental speed) or basically negligible since Kaladin is dodging shardbearer blows with relative ease even before he started using stormlight  and casually outpacing them once he gets stormlight. Plus, whenever Brandon does increased speed, he makes sure to contrast it with the character's experience without the speed boost, often stating how they feel "sluggish" (kaladin/vin). I think that since the strength boost makes their bodies move faster, they interpret that as their muscles moving faster. A strength boost means that their bodies will be moving faster but their reflexes are not necessarily amped. 

[Ecthelion III]

4 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

If there is a boost in speed, I think it's either a boost in muscular speed only (not mental speed) or basically negligible since Kaladin is dodging shardbearer blows with relative ease even before he started using stormlight.

Kaladin was always using Stormlight without knowing it. That's why on his first few bridge runs, his spheres from Gaz always inexplicably dunned.

[CaptainRyan]

36 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

It's funny, when you look at it like this Shardplate becomes the fantasy equivalent of power armor.  Strength booster, Reflex booster, Speed booster, inexplicable ability to avoid G-force related injury, complete immunity to any other type of injury.   

Exactly! If it wasn't for the eye slits I would argue that shardplate also protects you from poison gas haha!

 

6 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

If there is a boost in speed, I think it's either a boost in muscular speed only (not mental speed) or basically negligible since Kaladin is dodging shardbearer blows with relative ease even before he started using stormlight  and casually outpacing them once he gets stormlight. Plus, whenever Brandon does increased speed, he makes sure to contrast it with the character's experience without the speed boost, often stating how they feel "sluggish" (kaladin/vin). I think that since the strength boost makes their bodies move faster, they interpret that as their muscles moving faster. A strength boost means that their bodies will be moving faster but their reflexes are not necessarily amped. 

I would be more willing to say the speed does not affect a wearer's reflexes except the first quote I supplied has Adolin specifically mentioning dexterity. It is hard for me to equate muscular strength to dexterity. 

[asterion137]

5 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

I would be more willing to say the speed does not affect a wearer's reflexes except the first quote I supplied has Adolin specifically mentioning dexterity. It is hard for me to equate muscular strength to dexterity. 

I think that's kind of odd though cause the new shardbearers are stated to be clumsy. I'm skeptical of this quote mostly because Shardbearers have no speed feats. Sadeas doesn't shoot his arrows any faster than a standard archer. Gavilar can only tag Szeth when he gets super close. Two shardbearers are so thoroughly outmatched speedwise against kaladin he notes that he could probably dodge their swings blindfolded, etc.

10 minutes ago, Ecthelion III said:

Kaladin was always using Stormlight without knowing it. That's why on his first few bridge runs, his spheres from Gaz always inexplicably dunned.

Kaladin with little to no stormlight (he had basically no bond with syl at that point) is still faster than a shardplate user.

[CaptainRyan]

56 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

I think that's kind of odd though cause the new shardbearers are stated to be clumsy. I'm skeptical of this quote mostly because Shardbearers have no speed feats. Sadeas doesn't shoot his arrows any faster than a standard archer. Gavilar can only tag Szeth when he gets super close. Two shardbearers are so thoroughly outmatched speedwise against kaladin he notes that he could probably dodge their swings blindfolded, etc.

Shardplate requires training whereas Allomancy is instinctive.

IIRC, there was no mention of the rate of Sadeas' shots. Szeth was using Stormlight and, therefore, was faster than normal. Not to mention that Szeth is an expertly trained fighter. Kaladin was also using Stormlight and his bond was perfectly fine at that point because he was able to heal two broken legs in a matter of moments. Not to mention that Kaladin is also an expertly trained fighter. 

Sadeas is the only example we have of a plate wearer with no blade and he was only able to be overwhelmed by massive numbers. One-on-one a regular human is completely outclassed by a shardplate wearer. 

[asterion137]

33 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

Shardplate requires training whereas Allomancy is instinctive.

IIRC, there was no mention of the rate of Sadeas' shots. Szeth was using Stormlight and, therefore, was faster than normal. Not to mention that Szeth is an expertly trained fighter. Kaladin was also using Stormlight and his bond was perfectly fine at that point because he was able to heal two broken legs in a matter of moments. Not to mention that Kaladin is also an expertly trained fighter. 

Sadeas is the only example we have of a plate wearer with no blade and he was only able to be overwhelmed by massive numbers. One-on-one a regular human is completely outclassed by a shardplate wearer. 

i meant the time kaladin dodges helarans blade and gets close enough to stab him in the eye.

Plus, the shardbearers are presumably expertly trained as well

[CaptainRyan]

12 hours ago, asterion137 said:

i meant the time kaladin dodges helarans blade and gets close enough to stab him in the eye.

Plus, the shardbearers are presumably expertly trained as well

Even at that time Kaladin had proto-Radiant status and was definitely not just a regular-level human.

As to shardbearers being expertly trained, I submit this line from page 30/1008 from the kindle edition of the Way of Kings:

Quote

The man [King Gavilar] was dangerously skilled with that Blade. Many Shardbearers depended too much on the power of their weapon and armor.

I believe this is mentioned a few other times in the books but many shardbearers neglect their training due to the advantages provided by their plate and blade. We are never given any information one way or the other with Helaran - he could have been incredibly skilled or he could have been relatively novice. Statistically, he was a novice haha.

I think there will be few fighters, especially non-Radiants/magically enhanced ones, in the Stormlight Archive that approach the level of Kaladin or Szeth. Adolin is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of a non-Radiant fighter and even he was no match for Szeth and, presumably, Kaladin.

Also, as a side note, I did find the scene where Sadeas is shooting the Grandbow at the chasmfiend and he was being handed arrows by an attendant. There would be no speed increase in his rate of fire if he is waiting for a soldier to hand him arrows haha.

[Jondesu]

15 hours ago, asterion137 said:

i meant the time kaladin dodges helarans blade and gets close enough to stab him in the eye.

Plus, the shardbearers are presumably expertly trained as well

Syl remembers "helping him kill" back that far. He was even then using Stormlight unconsciously, and the men he fought with could see the effects even if they didn't know why.

jW

[asterion137]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

Syl remembers "helping him kill" back that far. He was even then using Stormlight unconsciously, and the men he fought with could see the effects even if they didn't know why.

jW

i mean he wouldnt have spheres on the battlefield anyway so he wouldn't have access to stormlight anyway. Besides, Syl only says that she "helped men kill before" in WoK. She says similar things in WoR but only referring to the tower battle

[Eki]

57 minutes ago, asterion137 said:

i mean he wouldnt have spheres on the battlefield anyway so he wouldn't have access to stormlight anyway. Besides, Syl only says that she "helped men kill before" in WoK. She says similar things in WoR but only referring to the tower battle

I think he very well could have his spheres on him, actually. That doesn't necessarily mean he used stormlight, but still.

And yeah, I always figured the "I've helped men kill before" referred to her being bonded to other Knights, before the Recreance.

[Jondesu]

1 hour ago, asterion137 said:

i mean he wouldnt have spheres on the battlefield anyway so he wouldn't have access to stormlight anyway. Besides, Syl only says that she "helped men kill before" in WoK. She says similar things in WoR but only referring to the tower battle

I was assuming spheres would be around, at least some. As for the quote, I think I'm referencing the wrong one, but I remember Kaladin thinking about something she said and realizing she was with him even back when he was fighting in the army.

jW

[asterion137]

14 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I was assuming spheres would be around, at least some. As for the quote, I think I'm referencing the wrong one, but I remember Kaladin thinking about something she said and realizing she was with him even back when he was fighting in the army.

jW

he also said that she acted like a normal windspren then

[Eki]

She actually shows up in the text before the battle, when she pranks him by binding his money pouch to his hand when he tries to let go of it, or something like that... He assumes it's just a windspren, but it was almost surely Syl.

[Jondesu]

4 hours ago, asterion137 said:

he also said that she acted like a normal windspren then

She acted like one to his eyes, sure, and she didn't know or remember much if anything, but the bond was forming nonetheless.

jW

[Blackhoof]

yeah, and Syl couldn't have bonded anyone else because any Spren bonded to a Radiant was killed. Syl is younger than that.