Kurkistan Posted May 28, 2016 Report Share Posted May 28, 2016 Bands of Mourning and Shadows of Self SPOILERS ahoy. I'm leaving the thread here because it really has nothing to do with either of those books beyond the evidence they provide, but this is more of a "General Cosmere Theory: Mistborn edition" than a proper Mistborn-book thread. We've had a swathe of new time bubble information with Shadows of Self, Bands of Mourning, and WoBs from the last few tours. We're to the point where there's some genuinely new/interesting information, so it would be inappropriate for me to just shove the first them I think of into the giant mega thread of death and call it gospel. So here I'll post all the new WoBs and brief overviews of new in-book information and we can discuss implications, etc. WoBs: Nested bubble size interaction: Quote [1:36:00]: Q: If a Mistborn burned both cadmium and bendalloy, would the bubbles be exactly the same size? A: That is an excellent question that I am not going to answer just yet. Q: If they were the same size, would there still be a barrier between the area of normal time and the area of (maybe) distorted time? A: RAFO. In general, cadmium bubbles are bigger, but you can influence the size. Aluminum creates dead space: (heavily paraphrased from a recording with approval by the question-asker, for clarity) Quote [2:06:26]: Q*: If you dropped a speed bubble whose border goes through an aluminum tube, is the inside of the tube affected by the time distortion? A*: No, the bubble would go around the tube. Accelerated aging (paraphrase): Quote BeskarKomrk: When someone is inside a time bubble where time is going faster, do they age more quickly than they would outside? A: Yes. Q: So there's a sort of relativistic effect going on there? A: Yes, I tried to keep it as close as possible to the actual effects. The only thing I didn't include, I think, is the red-shift of light when it leaves the bubble, because that would irradiate everything around it. Watches need to be reset: Quote [0:12] Q: Given how much they futz with time, why doesn't Wax continually reset his watch? A: They really should have to, huh? That's a good reminder. I've never thought about that. Doylist rationale behind bubble mechanics: (emphasis added) Quote So, let’s talk about the realities of speed bubbles. I did research on this, and got different answers from people on what really should happen if you could slow time like this. One of the issues is that light doesn’t change speeds based on this sort of issue, so there was discussion of what things would look like inside looking out or outside looking in. It seems likely that there’d be some sort of red shift, and also that things might grow more dim inside a speed bubble. This is all really very theoretical, however, and so—in the end—I decided that there was enough disagreement among scientists with whom I spoke that it wouldn’t be glaringly irregular if I just had the shimmer at the borders and stayed away from dealing with speed of light issues. There’s a much larger issue dealing with slowed time that rarely gets addressed by this type of fiction. I considered using it, and it’s this: conservation of energy. Inside the speed bubble, Wax and Wayne are moving far more quickly, and therefore have a ton of kinetic energy compared to those outside of it. And so, a coin tossed from inside the bubble going outside would suddenly move with a proportional increase in speed (proportional to how much slower things were outside). In essence, speed bubble = railgun. This is dangerous for narrative reasons. I’ve often said that the limitations of a power are more interesting than the powers themselves. (It’s Sanderson’s Second Law of Magics: Limitations > Powers.) One of the reasons for removing Mistborn and Full Feruchemists from the setting was so that we could focus in on the usefulness of the individual powers in Allomancy and Feruchemy. That falls by the wayside if any of the individual powers become too strong on their own. I didn’t want Wayne to be able to slow time, then sit inside his bubble and leisurely pick off enemies one at a time. And so, I had to place strong limitations on the speed bubbles. (Much stronger limitations than on other aspects of Allomancy. Pushing and Pulling, for example, have their limitations based in solid science. With speed bubbles, I eventually decided that solid science made them way too powerful. So I had to change things.) Therefore, the rules became: No shooting/throwing things out of speed bubbles, no moving speed bubbles, and a required couple second cool-down between creating different speed bubbles. The first rule broke required objects to be deflected when leaving the bubble and that we have the bubble absorb excess kinetic energy when something leaves it. Disappointing for the scientists, I know, but it makes for a stronger story. Emotional allomancy works through bubbles because it's "over the top": Quote [01:31:45] zas’ sister: If Wayne and Breeze, like if Wayne had a time bubble up and Breeze was inside Pushing on somebody’s emotions what-- Brandon: He could still make that work. zas’ sister: Would it affect it? Brandon: Not really. It wouldn’t dramatically affect it. You’re going to have one of these sort-of effects-- Yeah, because what he is doing is on another Realm, it’s not going to affect it. zas’ sister: Is that same with all [magics?] Brandon: Not necessarily. See what’s going on is if you are affecting things on the Cognitive Realm… zas: It’s kind of time-independent? Brandon: Yeah? That’s not really-- Really it’s the Spiritual Realm that is time-independent, right? All time and space are irrelevant once you reach the Spiritual. You’re kind of going to go over the top, it’s going to work just fine. In fact you can probably-- So he could use that to make his metals last a little bit better, probably. So that is a hack of the magic systems that you could probably do. Included as soon as you touch: Quote [01:33:05] zas’ sister: If someone ran into a time bubble, like from the outside into it, what would-- Brandon: The moment they touch it they would be in it. Cancelling only in area of overlap: Quote [01:33:17] zas’ sister: So it said in the book that if Marasi and Wayne had it on at the same time-- Would it cancel it out all the way, or would it just cancel out where both of the bubbles were? Brandon: Where both of the bubbles were. zas’ sister: So it would be like-- Brandon: You could make a bubble in a bubble, yes. Third book of, which I think I’m officially changing to Era 1.5 to be less confusing, will have a moment where they try to do a time bubble in motion. zas: [bubble in a bubble] Brandon: Not that one, the motion one, so you’ll finally get some views on what’s going on. You get some rules on that. Nicrosil/Duralumin RAFO: Quote [01:57:12] Questioner: Cadmium or bendalloy with duralumin or nicrosil? Brandon: That’s a RAFO. Conservation of momentum on entrance tied to redshift-solution: Quote Kurk: What exactly- When an object enters a time bubble, how exactly does it determine- how does it know how fast and which direction it's "really" going? Brandon: It gets deflected a little bit when it enters, but then it adapts to the momentum that it would have going in. Q: Like Spiritual bonds to something or other? A: Riiight <sounds hesitant> it's- so... I can't explain that because it has relevance in the future. But in that moment when it passes [into the bubble], something is happening with conservation of momentum. The trick we have to do with it in order to keep from irradiating people. Cadmium hermit can time-capsule self: Quote [1:00:00] Alterodent: If a hermit were to take a whole lot of Cadmium and go off and live by himself, how far within a lifetime, reasonably, could he get into the future by essentially time-capsuling himself? A: <laughs thoughtfully> Q: Assuming they live to be 70 or 75. A: They could get pretty far. Q: What would the savantism do to them? A: The savantism would probably allow them to get further… It’s completely reasonable… you can treat this like relativistic travel. Bubble size/strength more controllable than shown, size not inverse to strength: Quote [1:00:55] Kurk: How broadly can a time-bubbler control the attributes of the bubble? Like could he make it ten times smaller to make it ten times more powerful? A: It is more controllable than I have generally shown in the books. Q: And does the size correspond inversely to the strength? A: No. Moving bubble's effect on intersected object: Quote Kurkistan: Kurk: So when that cork [in Bands of Mourning] was thrown above the train, if the cork had been thrown by someone who was standing _besides_ the train, what would have happened when the bubble hit [the cork]? So the bubble's moving at 60mph and the cork [is not moving laterally relative to the bubble] and gets hit by a bubble... Brandon: Right. Right right right... So... this one's complicated. Let me see if I can... So anything that touches the bubble will be immediately lodged into the bubble, and be hit by that... So say you throw something up, the bubble hits it, is that what you're asking? Q: Yeah. A: But it does not have "momentum" the same as the thing? So it would probably be in the bubble for a short time. Q: So if I threw the cork straight, and then the bubble came from the right, the cork would shift to the right within the bubble as the bubble thought it was moving or something? A: <thoughtful noises> Q: So the bubble thinks the cork is travelling like 60mph North, the cork thinks it's not moving at all... A: Yeah... Q: So does the cork move the opposite direction of the bubble or something? A: Ask Peter the math on that one, and I'll have him run the math. That one's kind of... it's kind of like the time travel train experiment stuff, with the flags and things. So let's go ahead and PAFO that one. Kurkistan: To restate the scenario in more understandable terms (phase 2 is to use diagrams, if it comes to it and I still don't manage to get it across): Say Cory the cork-thrower is standing besides a train track. Cory is facing North and the train is running from West to East. Cory tosses a cork North up over a passing train. Normally, this cork would go over the train and land on the ground directly opposite Cory to the North. From the frame of reference of Cory and his cork, the train is moving West->East. From the frame of reference of the train, the train isn't moving at all and the cork is moving both South->North and East->West (i.e., Northwest). So if we were to draw a line describing the cork's movement, Cory's line would have the cork moving South->North over a moving train. The train's line would have the cork travelling Southeast->Northwest as it described a diagonal across the train. If there's a bubble on the train, that's where things get complicated. When the bubble hits the cork, does the train's frame of reference "take over" so far as it's direction of travel goes? So far as the train is concerned, nothing really changes: the cork is still describing that same diagonal, just more quickly/slowly. But so far as Cory and his cork are concerned, all the sudden the cork is moving laterally (East->West) corresponding to the train's frame of reference. The question, then, is where the cork lands when all's said and done: does it still land directly North of Cory after it passes over the train, or does it land a bit to the West or East as well? ----- My thoughts/model on this would be that it also lands West/East. If the bubble was a bendalloy bubble, then the corks diagonal passage would be accelerated, meaning that it pops out of the bubble off to the West of where it would have otherwise. A cadmium bubble would still move the cork to the West according to its frame of reference, but because of how slow the bubble itself is in motion the cork would still end up East of Cory. Peter: The bubble's frame of reference would take over while it's inside. But you also need to include the fact that bubbles deflect things. The cork would be deflected both when it enters and when it leaves the bubble. So you can't completely predict the path it will take. - <At this point the conversation kept on for a bit as things grew... complicated. We misunderstood one another [which I take the blame for] on several crucial fronts and ended up talking past one another. Long story short is that I'd been implicitly assuming absolute relativity of reference frames in the cork-bubble system—so while both types of bubble would drag the cork along for a bit, that dragging would also be offset (to varying degrees based on bubble type/compression) by lateral movement of the cork within the bubble. This is wrong.> -Peter: If the train is moving east, and he throws the cork over the train, a bubble that slows the cork down will mean the cork ends up east of him. If the train is moving east, and he throws the cork over the train, a bubble that speeds the cork up will mean the cork ends up on the other side of the train faster than it would have with no bubble. It doesn't move west. If the speed bubble only very slightly increases the flow of time, then the cork could even end up slightly east of him, depending on the speed of the train. So depending on the speed or slowness of the bubble, and the speed of the train, the cork will either end up exactly where the thrower expects it to, but more quickly, slightly east of where he expects, but more quickly, or quite a bit east of where he expects, more slowly. The cork doesn't move west. In fact, I think it's safe to assume that the train is always moving to the east faster than the thrower is throwing the cork to the north. In that case, both types of bubbles will always end up pushing the cork at least somewhat to the east. Let's do the math here. Say the bubble is 10 feet in diameter and the cork toss hits the bubble right in the center. He tossed the cork at 5mph. The bubble is 2x speed. That means the cork goes 10 mph across the train (measuring from the frame of reference of the tosser). The train is moving at 50 mph. The cork crosses the train in 0.682 seconds. In that time the train moves 50 feet to the east. So the cork ends up 50 feet to the east of where the tosser expected it to. If the bubble is 100x speed, the cork goes 500mph across the train, and in that time the train moves 1 foot. The cork ends up 1 foot to the east of where the tosser expected it to, but much faster than he expected. If the bubble is 1/2 speed, then the cork goes 2.5 mph across the train. The cork crosses the train in 2.727 seconds. In that time the train goes 200 feet to the east. The cork ends up 200 feet to the east of where the tosser thought it would end up. If the bubble is 1/100 speed, then the cork goes 0.05 mph across the train. The train moves 1.9 miles in the time it takes the cork to cross the train. The tosser has no idea where it ends up, but he watches it hovering over the train as the train goes off into the distance. ... As far as the cork is concerned, it can't tell the difference whether it's moving through a stationary bubble or a (laterally) moving bubble. From the cork's point of view it moves in a straight line either way. - <Some doodles got involved at one point or another, and it was also confirmed that the path of the cork (barring refraction) would stay the same once it left the bubble, still going directly north> -Kurk's Kommentary: Well that's interesting. I'd been assuming relativity of reference frames, but it looks like there needs to be some other mechanism at work to decide how the cork is "really" moving. I don't think this necessarily messes with current FTL models, but it requires some rethinking. The "everything we know" thread will need to be reworked to excise my relativity-based analysis and incorporate this. --Also this thread is wrong on more than one level. Book evidence: Jostling/deflection/refraction of objects traversing bubble borders In Shadows of Self when Marasi foils the assassination attempt on the mayor, it's noted that a bullet fired out of the cadmium bubble deflects on its way out. Then in Bands of Mourning there's some exposition while Marasi and Wayne are hiding in the grave: bullets entering the bubble get deflected as well. The words used are "anytime something entered a speed bubble, it was refracted...": recall that I'm weird, and that all time bubbles are referred to as "speed bubbles" in-world. At this point we've got definite in-text evidence of bullets being deflected on leaving bendalloy and cadmium bubbles, in addition to them being deflected on entering bendalloy bubbles. At this point I think we're pretty safe in saying that all transitions over bubble borders produce jostling. -I didn't spot any other mentions of in/out deflection in the two books, but and very open to being corrected. We also get the implication that shooting into cadmium bubbles causes deflection. BoM Ch 8 said: [Cadmium was] a wonderful power if you were bored and waiting for the play to start. But it wasn’t of so much use in combat, where you’d be left frozen in place while your enemies could escape, or just set themselves up to shoot you when the bubble dropped. This implies that the bubble being up prevents people shooting you: so either cadmium bubbles have some hitherto unknown bullet-stopping ability or the property the emphasized part references is just deflection.Moving bubbles: The fight on the train in BoM has a train-anchored bubble. Cool. The bubble even "captures" a cork that Wax throws at it (the implications of mechanics of this hashed out over an over-long WoB/P up above). BoM Ch 17 said: [Marasi tests the primer cube with cadmium on the moving carriage] “Marasi used a speed bubble while we were moving,” Waxillium said. “We hit the threshold and towed her out of it, popping the thing and lurching us from one time frame to the next.” “But, she used it on the train,” Steris said. “Speed bubbles move with you if you’re on something massive enough,” Waxillium said. “Otherwise, the spinning of the planet would pop you out of every one you made. The train was heavy and fast. The stagecoach is small and just slow enough. So—” “So I should have known better,” Marasi said, blushing. “I haven’t done that since I was a kid. But Waxillium, it buzzed.” This "heayy and fast" is quite fascinating, and runs a bit counter to the "cutting" WoB on what defines bubble frame of reference. It's reasonable enough, though: after all the bubble is based on "frame of reference for the cognitive things around" the bubble, so if you're a big heavy fast thing I'd guess that you have a more solid argument/perception of what "still" is then something small and slow and flimsy. - It's implied in the scene where the gang is testing out the primer cube by tossing it around that the cube spits out a bendalloy bubble while its in mid-air, then proceeds to land on the ground near Marasi with the bubble still centered on it. This would imply that the cube either has some special ability to anchor bubble frames of reference or (as I'm about to suggest) that while the bubble was airborne it simply "defaulted" to being anchored to the cube, but when it landed it assumed a normal ground-based frame of reference. This supported by Marasi walking up and picking up the cube off the ground without any mention of the bubble shifting. BoM Ch 17 said: They did as directed. Wax stood back. When Wayne ignited his metals, he suddenly became a blur inside his speed bubble. The cube zipped out an eyeblink later and soared through the air toward Marasi, deflected somewhat but still moving in the right direction. It engaged just before reaching [Marasi], and she became a blur, zipping over to pick up the cube, then zipping back. It took a count of ten before the cube stopped working, dropping her into ordinary time. ------ Nothing else bookey comes to mind immediately, beyond, obviously, the interaction of time bubbles with the primer cube and mechallomancy in general, as well as the implications that has for FTL. Satsoni, for instance, has raised the idea of just tossing the cube out ahead of a space ship as a way of getting a not-anchored bubble to travel through. Speaking of primer cubes: It occurs to me that bubbles must necessarily have some kind of "default frame" they assume upon first creation that's then maintained by the bubble's surroundings. This reconciles the ability for flung bubbles, airborne allomancers, etc. to have stable bubbles with Brandon's statements on frame of reference being determined by what the bubble "cuts" through. Actual analysis of all of this to come, but for now I just wanted to get everything down on paper. Discuss away. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Moridin Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 -Kurk's Kommentary: Well that's interesting. I'd been assuming relativity of reference frames, but it looks like there needs to be some other mechanism at work to decide how the cork is "really" moving. I don't think this necessarily messes with current FTL models, but it requires some rethinking. The "everything we know" thread will need to be reworked to excise my relativity-based analysis and incorporate this. I think I might know what this "other mechanism" is. I think the cork is adopting the frame of reference of the bubble, which would only know about the existence of things it "intersects". So let's say when thrown, the cork's frame of reference is the planet. As you said, to the cork the train is moving. The bubble's frame of reference is the train. When the cork hits the bubble, they have a sort of conversation, where the cork's idea of "still" is changed to be the same as the bubble's. The cork proceeds to continue moving north relative to the position it was in when it hit the bubble, then when it hits the other side of the bubble, its frame of reference jumps back to that of the planet. I hope I described that well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Bard Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 Ughhh... When I think about the scientific principles of time bubbles, it always gives me a headache. I know just enough about it to know that everything goes wonky the moment time bubbles appear on the scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoidhunter Posted May 29, 2016 Report Share Posted May 29, 2016 I find some of this hard to follow...I'm going to have 3-10 drinks...then take another look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted May 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think I might know what this "other mechanism" is. I think the cork is adopting the frame of reference of the bubble, which would only know about the existence of things it "intersects". So let's say when thrown, the cork's frame of reference is the planet. As you said, to the cork the train is moving. The bubble's frame of reference is the train. When the cork hits the bubble, they have a sort of conversation, where the cork's idea of "still" is changed to be the same as the bubble's. The cork proceeds to continue moving north relative to the position it was in when it hit the bubble, then when it hits the other side of the bubble, its frame of reference jumps back to that of the planet. I hope I described that well. That's essentially how I'd model it as well; the question then is the details of this conversation and how all that state is reliably and consistently tracked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Moridin Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 (edited) On 5/31/2016 at 8:33 AM, Kurkistan said: That's essentially how I'd model it as well; the question then is the details of this conversation and how all that state is reliably and consistently tracked. My initial assumption would be that the bubble is sort of continually querying everything in it for what they think still is, and then assuming which ever conception of still has the stronger argument, and then it tries to convince everything else in it that that idea of still is correct. That or it only queries initially and when something new enters it. I figure the Realmatics would possibly be somewhat like low-key soulcasting. Object's Cognitive is convinced of the new idea of still, its Spiritual Connections readjust themselves slightly to reflect that. This would have some possibly weird implications though, the foremost being that it could potentially be possible for bubbles to be "picked up" by something heavy and fast enough hitting them under the right conditions. Say, for example, a Mistborn was making themselves hover over a railroad track such that when they threw up a bubble, it didn't touch the planet (this is just a cautionary thing to avoid the planet possibly overriding anything else). Currently, the bubble's only conception of still is the Mistborn. Now, let's say a train comes along the track at full speed, and intersects the bottom of the bubble. If the bubble is querying things that enter it for their idea of still (and as we know a train is massive and fast enough to count as 'still'), then it seems likely the bubble's idea of still would change to that of the train and get dragged along by it. Edited June 29, 2016 by Master_Moridin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeskarKomrk Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 This would have some possibly weird implications though, the foremost being that it could potentially be possible for bubbles to be "picked up" by something heavy and fast enough hitting them under the right conditions. Say, for example, a Mistborn was making themselves hover over a railroad track such that when they threw up a bubble, it didn't touch the planet (this is just a cautionary thing to avoid the planet possibly overriding anything else). Currently, the bubble's only conception of still is the Mistborn. Now, let's say a train comes along the track at full speed, and intersects the bottom of the bubble. If the bubble is querying things that enter it for their idea of still (and as we know a train is massive and fast enough to count as 'still'), then it seems likely the bubble's idea of still would change to that of the train and get dragged along by it. I think that the frame of reference of the source of the bubble (whether human or cube) must come into play somehow. In all the examples we've seen, the source is moving along with the bubble and the vehicle is either large/fast enough to Cognitively dominate (the train) or it isn't (the carriage). If the source stays still (relative to the planet) as in your example, I'm not sure that the bubble would get dragged along with the train. Now, if they were floating in a bubble above the train and then dropped onto the train while still inside the bubble, that might be a different story. The timing on that might be difficult though. Aside from all of that, which is essentially baseless speculation on my part, the bubble would pop as soon as the person moved outside it. So even if it gets dragged along with the train, it wouldn't be very useful without the person moving along with it. Also, it was really cool seeing my own question to Brandon cited in this thread. Feels like I've accomplished something with my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted June 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Substantive thoughts aside, which question was yours, Beskar? I can try to see about getting it attributed to you in wherever it's sourced at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeskarKomrk Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Substantive thoughts aside, which question was yours, Beskar? I can try to see about getting it attributed to you in wherever it's sourced at. It's the one about accelerated aging. You linked to my original post here already, which was helpful as I had completely forgotten about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted June 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 It's the one about accelerated aging. You linked to my original post here already, which was helpful as I had completely forgotten about it. That it is; sorry, I just copy-pasted without taking the time to replace 'Q' with names. Thanks for asking that question. I just now lightninged-through and checked and the question-askers for the rest of the questions aren't as obvious: I don't know who "FS" is for the "Aluminum creates dead space" one, which is the only other one that sticks out as a low-hanging fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Moridin Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 I think that the frame of reference of the source of the bubble (whether human or cube) must come into play somehow. In all the examples we've seen, the source is moving along with the bubble and the vehicle is either large/fast enough to Cognitively dominate (the train) or it isn't (the carriage). If the source stays still (relative to the planet) as in your example, I'm not sure that the bubble would get dragged along with the train. Now, if they were floating in a bubble above the train and then dropped onto the train while still inside the bubble, that might be a different story. The timing on that might be difficult though. Aside from all of that, which is essentially baseless speculation on my part, the bubble would pop as soon as the person moved outside it. So even if it gets dragged along with the train, it wouldn't be very useful without the person moving along with it. Also, it was really cool seeing my own question to Brandon cited in this thread. Feels like I've accomplished something with my life. We've also seen that a bubble's position is independent of the source. Once a person throws a bubble up they can move around in it and even leave it. We know by WoB that a bubble determines what still is based on the things it "intersects". To me it seems things like the cube are edge cases, where the only thing the bubble has to determine its concept of still off of is its source. So our hovering Mistborn throws up a bubble. So long as the bubble doesn't intersect anything that would supersede the Mistborn's concept of still, it should follow the Mistborn around if they wobble around and such. If they Mistborn suddenly dropped to the ground and the bubble touched the planet, then its concept of still should shift. If it wasn't for the carriage incident and the WoB about the bubble intersecting I'd be inclined to agree it has something to do with the source's concept of still. As is I think it's a sort of conversation where it tries to reach a decision about what still is, and it just happens that the more massive and fast something is, the more weight (heh) its argument has. Alternatively: Since humans are more Cognitively complicated than a cube, a human's more complex conception of still as related to their perception of their environment might make things odd, in which case a wobbling hovering Mistborn would move around inside their bubble. I actually think I prefer this idea of how the bubbles would interact with humans at least. I do however still think that a passing train intersecting the bubble would override the Mistborn's concept of still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted June 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 On a technical level I think that even the hovering/wobbling mistborn wouldn't end up shifting around the bubble, as he likely has a conception of "still" based on his anchor, the planet around him, etc. Now a mistborn in space might be a different picture, without necessarily anything immediate that his conception of "still" is based upon. Or perhaps not. Either way I agree that the bubble's initial frame of reference is likely "defaulted in" based upon its source, and then shortly overridden through interaction with other objects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted September 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted September 8, 2016 I really really need to swing back and follow through both here and in the main "everything I say" thread... In the meantime, another WoB: RAFO on nested bubbles: Quote PathToEternity: Can Cadmium bubbles be nested if you have multiple Pulsers? Bonus Question: add in duralumin/nicrosil to the equation. Phantine: Yes. The effects multiply shinarit: Source I guess hiring 3-4 Pulsers before something you have to prepare for might be worth it. They create their bubbles one after the other at the same place, and boom, you have days instead of minutes. Ok, lets calculate. We don't have exact figures for cadmium, but we have for bendalloy: 2 minutes into 15 seconds, that's a ratio of 8. 4 Pulsers mean 84 = 4096 ratio. So 21 second for every day goes by for every day you spend in there. The outer Pulser burns this 168.75 second's worth of cadmium, the first inner one needs 22.5 minutes, the second inner one needs 3 hours and the innermost needs the 24 hours. So basically for every day spent in these bubbles you need ~27.5 hours worth of cadmium, depending on how routinely they set up the bubbles one after the other. PathToEternity: Wait, are you mixing up sliding and pulsing? I also think you are nesting your bubbles but not your pulsers, so you are losing a lot of efficiency not to mention practicality. Tell me if I'm misinterpreting what you're describing, but this is how I'm visualizing it:http://i.imgur.com/Hujpz8c.png I'm saying that you get 4 pulsers huddled together and the one that can open the biggest bubble goes first. Then the next largest one pops his. Then the next. And finally the smallest bubble fires. In that scenario (unless there is something that prevents this) I picture it like this:http://i.imgur.com/9qjB0lJ.png This method, 170 days pass only burning 4 hours worth of cadmium. Well. I'm gonna do it. Gonna page /u/mistborn and ask: is this possible? Can time bubbles be nested like so and if they can do you truly get this kind of efficiency? crosses fingers Brandon: This one is a RAFO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted December 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 The real update'll be a Christmas miracle at this point, I think... New WoB. It's pretty rambling, but the interesting thing is that mental gymnastics (presumably Vasher-style) would allow you to get the bubble moving with you. Source: Quote [24:00] Q: Speed bubbles- A: Ehh these are the hardest ones... Q: We’ve seen them work and move with trains, we’ve seen them not work with carriages: is there a size requirement, or is it how they view themselves…? A: That’s a good question. So I build in this thing, right? I’m like “eh speed bubbles! Speed bubbles are cool!” but the Delorean problem, right? You’re like “I’m going to go back in time: to the middle of SPACE”, because the planet is in the same position, right? This is stuff that science fiction writers have been having fun with since the silver age of science fiction. So I’m like “alright, I need to deal with the Delorean problem.” And so I’m like alright, we’re going to have to say that frame of reference is a big part of it: so perception and frame of reference is a big part of it; and also _size_ of the thing that you’re on. So it would be _possible_ to use kind of cosmere cognitive training to get that speed bubble moving with you- and someone asked me a question about this on tour, I believe, so it would be in one of the reports—not this exact same thing, but “could they learn to move their speed bubble with them?”: and yes you can. Q: So it is how the allomancer views it, not how the thing views itself? A: That’s a _part_ of it. Partially how you view yourself, partially <garbled>. It’s really also mass. Big things- The speed bubbles required all kinds of physics-gymnastics—I’m sorry physicists—but once you start playing with time the stuff you gotta’ do… just crazy stuff you gotta’ do. Q: We actually sat down and worked out what the metric would have to do to have a speed bubble- it was gnarly A: We did run the math on these things, and stuff like that. And Peter- he’s like “redshift” and stuff like this we talked about, and all kinds of fun stuff about speed bubbles that I then had to- Q: Khriss asked about that? A: Yeah. So- this one [presumably speed bubbles] and manipulating weight- those are the math ones where I’m just like- Q: If you can get get massive _enough_ to move your speed bubbles- [Laughter] A: Yeah. A: So these are the ones where- they create the fun things to talk about, but they are where this is fantasy and not science fiction. A lot of these questions I could answer and you’d be like “alright, if there were this alternate power source we could buy this” but in this case we’re like exception-list of asterisks to make it work. But they’re too fun to not do, right? And I knew I was doing gravity on Stormlight, so I’m like I gotta’ do weight separately. So far as someone asking the "cosmere cognitive training" question before, I don't have any record/recollection of that myself. Cookie to anyone who can find it/point it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 Brandon did say that people skilled enough with time bubbles can learn to manipulate their movement. Maybe this is what he is referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted December 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Argent said: Brandon did say that people skilled enough with time bubbles can learn to manipulate their movement. Maybe this is what he is referring to? Interesting. Do you know where he said this? A little word-searching isn't finding it here or on the main thread, and normally I'd stake money on that being the entirety of bubble quotes of any relevance. EDIT: Posterior-covering: Maybe I missed something from the AU tour...? Edited December 9, 2016 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 3 minutes ago, Kurkistan said: Interesting. Do you know where he said this? A little word-searching isn't finding it here or on the main thread, and normally I'd stake money on that being the entirety of bubble quotes of any relevance. It wasn't from Chicago. It was during this tour though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted December 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 Well then I'll have to take some time to scour through everything. Thanks for the reminder that I haven't seen everything from this tour yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeskarKomrk Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 Yeah, I think it's in one of the tour threads, but it hasn't been transcribed yet. Check the Hoboken one; that would be my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan Posted December 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BeskarKomrk said: Yeah, I think it's in one of the tour threads, but it hasn't been transcribed yet. Check the Hoboken one; that would be my guess. This one from SF? Source: Quote Friend: So my quick question: Can you use Identity (I love the speed bubbles!) to anchor speed bubbles to yourself? Brandon: Uh, this is possible. That’s less a matter of Identity. What’s gonna happen there, like, the more someone uses the powers, the more familiar and intermingled with their soul the powers become, and they are able to accomplish things that others can’t. This would be like a mistborn learning to hover a coin, right, which they can do, but most think you can’t. That’s the sort of level we’re going with. Necarion: So a savant could? Brandon: A savant could totally do that. The problem is, things moving in and out of a speed bubble, there’s a transference of energy. This is how we keep speed bubbles from irradiating people when light moves through them, right, red shift. And so there’s a transfer of energy directly from the spiritual realm, which means that moving with a speed bubble, you’re gonna run into that, and it’s gonna be, it’s gonna cause all kinds of problems, but it would be possible. Friend: Now, do things actually move unpredictable at the edge [of a speed bubble] or do they refract out? Is it just that geometry is hard? Brandon: No, I have a level of unpredictability, I mean we’re Chaos Theory. The idea being, you could predict if you had a perfect closed system and things like this, but it’s unfeasible for most technology and minds to be able to predict. Friend: Thank you Necarion: One other speed bubble question. Is the speed of light the same inside and outside a speed bubble? Brandon: Um, yes. The speed of light is the same. Good question, you’re trying to figure out the FTL. Necarion: Also, it would eliminate the redshift if the speed of light… Brandon: If the speed of light were similar [Necarion’s note: there would be no redshift if the speed of light were directly proportional to the ‘speed of time’. Alas this theory doesn’t seem to be valid]. That’s one thing we considered, but it felt too unintuitive, plus it’s just not how I imagined things working. So, no it is not, but that’s a good question. It is something we considered. Friend: I just want to setup a lab in a speed bubble and do fun things. Edited December 9, 2016 by Kurkistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 Yeah, that sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeskarKomrk Posted December 9, 2016 Report Share Posted December 9, 2016 Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. I had the wrong location in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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