Zahel's Abilities

[Thunder_93]

Hi everyone,

 

first of all: This contains spoilers for Words of Radiance and Warbreaker!

 

So, i wasn't sure where to post it - the Warbreaker or the Stormlight part, but i've decided for this here.

 

So, we know Zahel is actually Vasher. And we know he went to Roshar, because he can use Stormlight instead of Breaths to survive (as he's a Returned).

So, Returned can use Breaths as well for Awakening, if they have "too many Breaths", and not just their weekly Breath to survive.

So, as he can consume Stormlight instead of Breaths to survive, does that mean, he (or all Returned) can consume Stormlight as well, just like a Knight Radiant does?

If not I don't see how he should consume his weekly dose of it.

And if yes, the question is, if he actually has powers like a Knight Radiant, or if he can do some new stuff with it (Awaken things with Stormlight??), or if non of that (that he'd just consume it, and if he consumes more then he needs, it's just useless).

 

Other question:

What about the Weeping (that was the name of the time without Highstorms, right?)? In this time, his source of Stormlight is gone - So, i suggest in this time he'd have to leave Roshar and go back to Nalthis to survive, or another place where he gets Investiture from. Other thoughts?

[Edgedancer he/him]

Every magic system can be fuled with every kind of Investiture, so he most likely would be able to use Stormlight for Awakening, although some extra steps might be needed. However, given that different from Breath Stormlight tends to leak very strongly, my guess would be that it does not stick to an awakened object for very long to the point where it is extremly inefficient. We also don't know the value of Stormlight Vasher could absorb without glowing like a bonfire in comparision to Breath, so who knows how much he's actually absorbing.

 

My guess for the Weeping would be that he stockpiles gems.

[Dragon314 he/him]

I doubt it on the first one. That is innate Roshar investor and he hasn't bonded a spren. We also have a WoB that says that Vasher consumes more Starlight than breaths. I think. I'm pretty sure its out there somewhere.

[Rasarr she/her]

I'm guessing his Spiritweb may somehow "translate" his Stormlight to consummable (and useable) Breath, so that he could use it for Awakening as well as susteinance - SL and Breath are just two states of the same thing, after all, though if what Dragon says is correct, some compression could be hapenning to turn Stormlight into Breath. If that's indeed so, then he should be able to Awaken or store Stormlight/Breath in a bowl or somesuch for the time of Weeping, consuming some until more Stormlight happens.

 

Or maybe he has some Breaths left for a rainy day from Nalthis? I don't recall on what Heightening he finished Warbreaker, but if he was on Third, he'd have enough Breath to supply himself during the Weepings for some two centuries. 

 

If nothing of the above, yeah, he probably stockpiles large gems. At any rate, he doesn't return to Nalthis for the time of Weeping - he's seen giving Kaladin life advice when Dalinar's making way towards Narak, after all, and it seems to be an annual thing for him.

[Yata he/him]

Some time ago I wrote a theory about Returneds that gain extra powers on Roshar through their bond with a Divine Breath (A Splinter of Endowment) and we know that foreign Bond gain extra powers on Roshar

Maybe as he gains extra power he would be allowed to drawn in Stormlight (the local Roshar Investiture)

 

Of course is just an idea of mine, but it's possible

Edited May 9, 2016 by Yata

[Nyali she/her]

We have a WoB somewhere about Nightblood forming a bond with a person who uses him long enough which, on Nalthis, results in the wielder no longer feeling nauseous when he's partially unsheathed. That's why Vasher doesn't exhibit the sense of nausea that Vivenna feels. Because Szeth also mentions no nausea, I'm assuming that Nightblood instantly bonds to him. Nale says that Szeth is a Skybreaker now, and for that, he'd need a spren, and the "spren" that Nale gives him is Nightblood. That sounds like it means that Nightblood translates to a spren on Roshar, specifically a Highspren (spren of judgment). That makes sense - Nightblood is a sentient Cognitive entity just like the spren, he was just created in a different way on a different world.

 

But, does that mean the bond that Nightblood forms translates into a Nahel bond while on Roshar and infused with Roshar-flavored investiture (Stormlight)? If so, does that mean that, when Vasher held Nightblood on Roshar, he could Surgebind like a Skybreaker? Would Vasher speaking the Radiant Oaths while bonded to Nightblood allow him to channel Stormlight easier? Would doing so make him consume less Stormlight per week to survive? If the one bonded to Nightblood speaks the Third Ideal of the Skybreakers, does Nightblood gain the ability to transform into a sword? <.< Err, I mean, does Nightblood gain the ability to transform into any weapon he feels like, the same way other spren can once their bond-person hits Radiant Level 3? If their bond-person were to hit Radiant Level 3 (speak the Third Ideal) and then break their oaths, would Nightblood become permanently stuck in the shape of a sword? Err, uhh, I mean, would Nightblood "die" the same way the native spren do?

 

If the above is all true, if an Awakened object of the level of Nightblood was created on Nalthis and brought to Roshar, but its Command didn't make it fit with any of the ten bondspren, would the object be unable to form a Nahel bond? Or would the bond be formable, but the surges it granted be random or non-existent? I guess it's hard for any Command not to fall into one of the ten categories, but I'm sure there are plenty out there.

 

 

 

I'm assuming Stormlight can't be used to Awaken, because Awakening is tied to Nalthis's investiture. Using something other than Breath would be extremely difficult because you'd have to convert it first, which I believe takes more energy than the Awakening would output. But, could Vasher use Breaths obtained on Nalthis to Awaken while on Roshar? I don't see why not, but he might not have any. Though, even if he doesn't, someone else does... (points at Hoid and his perfect pitch). The reason it's easy for Vasher to eat Stormlight instead of Breath is that his consumption just requires raw investiture, the form of it matters far less than if he were to use it to do something like Awaken.

 

 

I'm pretty sure Vasher can also change his form on Roshar because that ability has to do with the Returned living partially in the Cognitive Realm, which, if anything, should be easier on Roshar. But, he probably couldn't look too different from what people would expect a Rosharan to look like since the form-alteration is a product of the Cognitive, and local collective subconsciousness definitely affects the Cognitive.

[Yata he/him]

I don't think that Nightblood give (on Roshar) any Surges related power... It doesn't give to you the Surgebinding ability. Something else based on its nature. In the same way the Seon's bond will probably give to you some Devotion related power on roshar

[Eccentric Hero he/him]

We have a WoB somewhere about Nightblood forming a bond with a person who uses him long enough which, on Nalthis, results in the wielder no longer feeling nauseous when he's partially unsheathed. That's why Vasher doesn't exhibit the sense of nausea that Vivenna feels. Because Szeth also mentions no nausea, I'm assuming that Nightblood instantly bonds to him. Nale says that Szeth is a Skybreaker now, and for that, he'd need a spren, and the "spren" that Nale gives him is Nightblood.

I assumed that Nightblood was Nalan's ultimate Skybreaker test. A good person would be repulsed; a bad one, attracted. But a man who only follows the law would be immune. Szeth's feeling nothing showed that he was a perfect candidate for be a Skybreaker.

[Nyali she/her]

I assumed that Nightblood was Nalan's ultimate Skybreaker test. A good person would be repulsed; a bad one, attracted. But a man who only follows the law would be immune. Szeth's feeling nothing showed that he was a perfect candidate for be a Skybreaker.

 

Nale gave Nightblood to Szeth and told him that it was his new Shardblade. I don't think it was just a test.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

We have a WoB somewhere about Nightblood forming a bond with a person who uses him long enough which, on Nalthis, results in the wielder no longer feeling nauseous when he's partially unsheathed. That's why Vasher doesn't exhibit the sense of nausea that Vivenna feels. Because Szeth also mentions no nausea, I'm assuming that Nightblood instantly bonds to him. Nale says that Szeth is a Skybreaker now, and for that, he'd need a spren, and the "spren" that Nale gives him is Nightblood. That sounds like it means that Nightblood translates to a spren on Roshar, specifically a Highspren (spren of judgment). That makes sense - Nightblood is a sentient Cognitive entity just like the spren, he was just created in a different way on a different world.

 

If the above is all true, if an Awakened object of the level of Nightblood was created on Nalthis and brought to Roshar, but its Command didn't make it fit with any of the ten bondspren, would the object be unable to form a Nahel bond? Or would the bond be formable, but the surges it granted be random or non-existent? I guess it's hard for any Command not to fall into one of the ten categories, but I'm sure there are plenty out there.

 

Here, I think is the WoB you're talking about:

 

 

This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher’s Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It’s also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn’t get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he’s a good person. It’s not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers.

 

To me that implies that Szeth isn't a good person since he doesn't feel sick. That aside, I think if we want to discuss Nightblood and it's implications on Roshar, we should probably move that to another thread (though I'm sure a thread like that already exists)...

 

Back on topic, I'm sure that Zahel/Vasher can do anything with Stormlight that he could with Breaths. If he can translate it enough to feed on it, why wouldn't that translation be sufficient for anything else that Breath was useful for on Nalthis? It wouldn't make sense for me if he could use it for one thing, but nothing else. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Nyali she/her]

Back on topic, I'm sure that Zahel/Vasher can do anything with Stormlight that he could with Breaths. If he can translate it enough to feed on it, why wouldn't that translation be sufficient for anything else that Breath was useful for on Nalthis? It wouldn't make sense for me if he could use it for one thing, but nothing else. 

 

He feeds on Investiture, not specifically Breath. Having one form of Investiture behave like another form of Investiture is possible, but very difficult. I don't have the WoB in front of me, but I recall Brandon saying something about you having to put a lot of energy into the system for it to happen, so much that it's not really feasible to do in most cases, and it's usually far easier to just use the Investiture in the way it's already coded to work.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

He feeds on Investiture, not specifically Breath. 

 

I realize that. Are you saying the feeding aspect of being a Returned/Awakener is easier because the "code" to use your term doesn't matter for the feeding aspect?  Not sure I agree with that.

 

As a Returned he has to feed on Breaths, the Nalthis "coded" form of Investiture. To feed on Stormlight, I'm sure he can't just consume it straight, but has to "re-code" it like he would for any other ability, so it takes him more Stormlight investiture to feed than Breath, but that is fine because Stormlight is so much more plentiful on Roshar, and more easily available, than Breaths on Nalthis.

 

Having one form of Investiture behave like another form of Investiture is possible, 

 

Ergo, he can do anything with Stormlight that he can do with Breaths. It may be difficult, but that doesn't mean he can't do so. 

 

EDIT:

 

Here is the WoB you're thinking of I think... LINK

A: Yes. It would take some juryrigging, but all of the magic systems are compatible. It is possible to fuel allomancy with breath (that's the example Brandon gave), or any of the other magics with other forms of investiture. Difficult, but possible.

 

That doesn't speak to the level or amount needed, just means it would be difficult. My interpretation is "difficult to figure out how", but once you do, not that hard...

Edited May 9, 2016 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[Nyali she/her]

I realize that. Are you saying the feeding aspect of being a Returned/Awakener is easier because the "code" to use your term doesn't matter for the feeding aspect?  Not sure I agree with that.

 

As a Returned he has to feed on Breaths, the Nalthis "coded" form of Investiture. To feed on Stormlight, I'm sure he can't just consume it straight, but has to "re-code" it like he would for any other ability, so it takes him more Stormlight investiture to feed than Breath, but that is fine because Stormlight is so much more plentiful on Roshar, and more easily available, than Breaths on Nalthis.

No, what I'm saying is that how the investiture is "coded" is meaningless for feeding a Returned. They just need some form of raw investiture nearby that the can feed off of. They don't need to use it so the coding is irrelevant, they just need to eat it.

 

Ergo, he can do anything with Stormlight that he can do with Breaths. It may be difficult, but that doesn't mean he can't do so.

 

By that logic, everyone can do everything. Just because it's possible doesn't mean he knows how to do it. From what I recall, in order to know how to use one investiture as another, you have to know a lot about how both investitures work. When you get to the point where you could substitute one for the other, you are also at the point where you can perform both forms of investiture rather well, so usually there's no reason to make an order of magnitude harder by swapping because you can do something that has a similar effect with the magic the investiture is coded for.

 

And, unless I'm mistaken, I thought you still had to fulfill the requirements needed to access a form of investiture in order to use that form of investiture, even to power a different form. We have no proof that Vasher can absorb stormlight, just that he can feed off of it.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

By that logic, everyone can do everything. Just because it's possible doesn't mean he knows how to do it. 

 

That is a mis-exaggeration of what I'm saying. I never disagreed that it wasn't difficult to figure out. My basic premise is different from yours. I assume that if he can use Stormlight to survive, then he's figured out how to do other things with it as well. 

 

It is a moot point however, as per WoB, you are correct and this should end the thread...

ZENBOSSANOVA

Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to awaken things.

 

So he should have any abilities associated with his 5th Heightening Divine Breath, but can't Awaken with Stormlight.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[soulcastJam he/him]

Szeth's first oath: "I will destroy evil"

[CJ Feboris]

That is a mis-exaggeration of what I'm saying. I never disagreed that it wasn't difficult to figure out. My basic premise is different from yours. I assume that if he can use Stormlight to survive, then he's figured out how to do other things with it as well.

It is a moot point however, as per WoB, you are correct and this should end the thread...

So he should have any abilities associated with his 5th Heightening Divine Breath, but can't Awaken with Stormlight.

I think this WoB just says he doesn't know how to do it not that it is impossible.