Renarin love, why?

[FeatherWriter]

For me, having just written a lengthy thing about this in another topic, I think Renarin's future sight will likely be the largest hurdle in their relationship going forward. Even when Adolin thinks Dalinar is the one making the marks, he's clearly very uncomfortable with anything resembling prophecy, and he says so, outright. 

Quote

He turned to Adolin. “I think it’s obvious now that I was behind each of these. Why does that bother you so, son?”

“It’s the idea of you scribbling on the ground,” Adolin said, shivering. “Lost in one of those visions, not in control of yourself.”

“The Almighty’s path for me is a strange one,” Dalinar said. “Why do I need to get the information this way? Scratches on the ground or the wall? Why not say it to me plainly in the visions?”

“It’s foretelling, you realize,” Adolin said softly. “Seeing the future. A thing of the Voidbringers.”

-Words of Radiance, Chapter 50

It's one thing when you think it's your very confident, very in-control father going through this who has the strength of presence to tell you that it's all right and will be okay. It's entirely another when it's your nervous, shy younger brother that everyone has said something was wrong with all your life. Considering how horrific and involuntary Renarin's experience was during the vision in the Everstorm, I think if Adolin ended up seeing his brother like that, in the midst of the visions' throes, he'd have a very hard time with it.

[maxal]

I have to partially agree with Feather about Adolin's reaction to finding out about the extend of Renarin's powers. Adolin has always had a hard time dealing with events he cannot control no matter their nature: each time they occur, he is visibly disturbed by them. In the copied passage, Adolin goes through his Blade dismissing/summoning nervous which is an external sign of how uncomfortable the idea his father is scribbling numbers on the wall makes him. Finding out his younger brother is having uncontrollable visions about the future is certainly not going to sit well with him, but just as he never removed his support from his father, I doubt he will remove his support from his brother. It will however add up to the list of things which are creating an increased instability in his life: it definitely will play a factor into whatever happens to him.

For my part, it isn't so much the fact Renarin is becoming a Radiant with super powers, visions included, which will grate Adolin the most, but the fact his brother is moving away towards this new world, leaving him alone in the old one. The world has shifted and everyone meaningful to him has jumped feet joined into it, but him. Him, they left behind. He isn't ready for it.

 

[Eki]

4 hours ago, youperguy2 said:

He is one of 4 members of the Knights Radiant. (6 if you count Lift and Jasnah)

There could be many more that we don't know of yet. Next book will be interesting!

[Argel]

Adolin could be one of the people that ends up supporting the KRs. He has battle experience, military training, he's a duelist, etc. So he could still have a "good enough" role to play.  Maybe even protecting the Truthwatchers?  Of course, Sadeas murder could really change things. Hmm, recruited by Amaram if Dalinar "throws him out" It sure does seem like SA3 could reveal a lot more about Renarin and Adolin in addition to Dalinar.

 

 

[Nyali]

3 minutes ago, Argel said:

Adolin could be one of the people that ends up supporting the KRs. He has battle experience, military training, he's a duelist, etc. So he could still have a "good enough" role to play.  Maybe even protecting the Truthwatchers?  Of course, Sadeas murder could really change things. Hmm, recruited by Amaram if Dalinar "throws him out" It sure does seem like SA3 could reveal a lot more about Renarin and Adolin in addition to Dalinar.

A little off topic, but there's a WoB where Brandon said that Adolin's actions at the end of WoR would be perfectly acceptable to one of the KR Orders, just not the Skybreakers. I suspect he means the Dustbringers/Releasers, but we don't know much about that Order yet.

[maxal]

5 hours ago, Argel said:

Adolin could be one of the people that ends up supporting the KRs. He has battle experience, military training, he's a duelist, etc. So he could still have a "good enough" role to play.  Maybe even protecting the Truthwatchers?  Of course, Sadeas murder could really change things. Hmm, recruited by Amaram if Dalinar "throws him out" It sure does seem like SA3 could reveal a lot more about Renarin and Adolin in addition to Dalinar.

I have a lot to say about this particular story arc... While it is true having battle experience, military training will always remain useful skills, I somehow doubt it will matter much in a world devastated by a Desolation. No matter how hard he tries, no matter how good he may be, Adolin is seriously outclassed against the horrors the Desolation will trust at mankind. Without the advantages of stormlight and surgebinding, I fear regular men will not be of much help in the upcoming combat. It is highly likely the upper leadership positions will be awarded to Radiants as only they have the means to save mankind.  

A part of me also inwardly shrugs over thinking this is all Adolin's arc may amount to. He was the upper-dog, standing at the top of the food chain, his future having been established since he was a little boy. He was secure at to what his role would be, but life has now dealt him a very different set of cards. The world has changed around him: it isn't his fault, it isn't his doing and more importantly, he never wanted those changes. Here lies one of the most important difference in between Adolin and the Radiants: they all seek change, they were all unhappy within their place/life. Not Adolin. Adolin never wanted those things, but he is forced to live through those by the force of events. He isn't a hero or even a protagonist: he is this one guy who stands in the middle of the tempest, desperately looking for an anchor as while they all wanted to fly away, he didn't. He doesn't know how to.

This particular arc had great promises so, to me, Adolin basically keeping his actually function as if nothing ever happened does not sound like an interesting story for his character. It feels pretty static. It isn't what I envisioned when I started rooting for his character.

5 hours ago, Nyali said:

A little off topic, but there's a WoB where Brandon said that Adolin's actions at the end of WoR would be perfectly acceptable to one of the KR Orders, just not the Skybreakers. I suspect he means the Dustbringers/Releasers, but we don't know much about that Order yet.

This is almost an invitation to yet another essay on this particular question. In an attempt to keep it brief, I would say Adolin becoming a Dustbringer is a Red Herald: I am convinced it isn't happening in a million years.

[soulcastJam]

You make a good point Maxal.  Adolin isn't broken so there isn't room for a spren. I was just thinking though that maybe this thing with Sadeas will actually break him. Not that I'm convinced he will become a KR, but it's a possibility.

[maxal]

39 minutes ago, soulcastJam said:

You make a good point Maxal.  Adolin isn't broken so there isn't room for a spren. I was just thinking though that maybe this thing with Sadeas will actually break him. Not that I'm convinced he will become a KR, but it's a possibility.

Well, for the broken part, I have stated several times how I thought it didn't need to be as drastic as the backstories of both Shallan and Kaladin. Adolin may not be broken, but I personally think something broke in him, the day he murdered Sadeas. While I do not think it is a sign of "evil brewing", I do think it was, in part, negative. He has crossed his threshold, he snapped... Will he do it again? Can he learn how to control his emotional side while everything is shifting around him and one emotion pills on the top of the other? When the inner cup is already full, there is just no more room to treat additional uncertainties without creating an overflow. 

This being said, Adolin certainly isn't ready for a Nahel bond and it may be he never will be ready. I sincerely do not think he will jealous the powers his former loved ones now yield as I do not think he'll want them, but I certainly think seeing everyone he saw as family move away from him will hurt the most. They will form a new group, a new close knitted group and he won't be part of it, not that he wants to, but it would be logical he would feel left out, rejected which one of the central theme around his character.

Ever been in a situation where everyone who matters to you decide, without speaking to each other, they all need to move away thus leaving you behind? It wasn't their intention, but the end result is same. They are over there while you are over here and for some reason you can't go "over there". This is exactly how I think having his family turn into Radiants will feel to Adolin. They all yearn for this new world which happens to be a world he isn't a part of. Well, technically it isn't entirely true, but to him it may be how it will feel.

My thoughts are Adolin will be force to either change or to be swap away in the tempest. It is either he joins the new world or he loses himself. I do not think status quo will be a possibility for him: he stands too close to the central events, he will lose too much in the aftermath of the Everstorm. Does change imply a path towards Radianhood? Maybe. I have great hopes for this Blade... but as he is now, towards the end of WoR, Adolin couldn't be less ready to engage on a journey.

I have sincerely no idea where Adolin is going, as a character. My hopes are he will be allowed enough room to keep on growing and his overall arc will be one worth reading. My fear are... there are too many of them to broach in relative shortness.

[Argel]

18 hours ago, maxal said:

While it is true having battle experience, military training will always remain useful skills, I somehow doubt it will matter much in a world devastated by a Desolation

Well, as a common soldier, maybe not so much, but Dalinar was training him for leadership. If nothing else, logistics will be important, and he should have training in that area. He's also a great duelist, so he could help train others. Think about the KRs that have little combat experience. Even Shallan falls into that category. I'm not sure where his story arc is going, but I think these are possibilities. Of course, losing his temper killing Sadeas complicates things.

Don't forget he did put himself in jail while Kaladin served his sentence. That's a point in his favor. And maybe there has not been enough time yet, but he doesn't seem to be jealous about e.g Kaladin being a KR.

I think we can all guestimate what Dalinar's reaction to Sadeas murder will be if/when he finds out Adolin did it, but what about Renarin? Pargamatic? Dismayed?

[+hwiles]

On 6/15/2016 at 3:13 PM, FeatherWriter said:

For me, having just written a lengthy thing about this in another topic, I think Renarin's future sight will likely be the largest hurdle in their relationship going forward. Even when Adolin thinks Dalinar is the one making the marks, he's clearly very uncomfortable with anything resembling prophecy, and he says so, outright. 

It's one thing when you think it's your very confident, very in-control father going through this who has the strength of presence to tell you that it's all right and will be okay. It's entirely another when it's your nervous, shy younger brother that everyone has said something was wrong with all your life. Considering how horrific and involuntary Renarin's experience was during the vision in the Everstorm, I think if Adolin ended up seeing his brother like that, in the midst of the visions' throes, he'd have a very hard time with it.

I think I have to disagree that Renarin's future sight will be a significant hurdle in their relationship, Adolin repeatedly demonstrates sincere love and loyalty to his brother, as well as a gradual acceptance for the strange new things around him.  Yes, he's a little volatile and slow to embrace the changing world, but he hasn't really ever been completely obstinate with those closest to him (he even eventually starts to embrace Kaladin).  It's a little cliche, but what I expect will happen is Adolin will, after an initial hiccup, embrace and love his brother for his new powers then slowly grow resentful and jealous of them, and then one of three things will happen: he'll either apologize and swear loyalty to Renarin, becoming his squire, become Shallan's squire and resume a positive relationship with Renarin (though never quite as good as the one they had before), or, less likely IMO, he'll take up an Honorblade so he can remain relevant to the story.

[maxal]

4 hours ago, Argel said:

Well, as a common soldier, maybe not so much, but Dalinar was training him for leadership. If nothing else, logistics will be important, and he should have training in that area. He's also a great duelist, so he could help train others. Think about the KRs that have little combat experience. Even Shallan falls into that category. I'm not sure where his story arc is going, but I think these are possibilities. Of course, losing his temper killing Sadeas complicates things.

Don't forget he did put himself in jail while Kaladin served his sentence. That's a point in his favor. And maybe there has not been enough time yet, but he doesn't seem to be jealous about e.g Kaladin being a KR.

I think we can all guestimate what Dalinar's reaction to Sadeas murder will be if/when he finds out Adolin did it, but what about Renarin? Pargamatic? Dismayed?

I did not mean to say his skills will be insignificant or useless in a world devastated by a Desolation, I simply meant they will not make much of a difference... Adolin will have to re-think his entire fighting style: he always stands at the front, taking the more hits to secure protection for his men. In a world where the foes he'll battle are too strong for his armor, this tactic will not work anymore. As a mere human, Adolin will be forced to leave the front lines and lead, from behind and I somehow do not think he'll enjoy this new role, providing it remains open to him after he is found guilty of murder.

I also fail to see how his skills as a duelist will matter in the upcoming combat... They won't need duelists to win, they will need brute force, stormlight induced strength and speed, surgebinding and sheer numbers. The ability to fight one's opponent in a defined ring with an agreed upon set of rules won't matter at all. They are to enter survival mode, no time will be left for frivolities such as dueling. Adolin being named duelist champion on the eve of the shifting of the world is bitter sweet. It is sweet because he got to fulfill his life-long dream, but it is bitter because he never got the time to actually enjoy it. 

I guess my whole point is I find secluding Adolin into a role he is already quite capable of occupying, war leader and duelist, is not such a great story arc... As I said, it feels pretty static. Where is the change? Where is the angst? Where are those little things which make character arcs fun to read? 

As for Dalinar's reaction, based on where he currently is, as a person, I'd say pragmatic is out of the question. He will be red mad with anger and he will lash out at his son. His reaction will be far worst than being dismayed, he will be disappointed and, to him, it may feel as a direct betrayal. I say, murdering Sadeas, will always stand in between Dalinar and Adolin as I do not think Dalinar will ever be able to completely forgive his son. I may be wrong about this, but as his character reads right now, this would be my guess.

 

4 hours ago, hwiles said:

I think I have to disagree that Renarin's future sight will be a significant hurdle in their relationship, Adolin repeatedly demonstrates sincere love and loyalty to his brother, as well as a gradual acceptance for the strange new things around him.  Yes, he's a little volatile and slow to embrace the changing world, but he hasn't really ever been completely obstinate with those closest to him (he even eventually starts to embrace Kaladin).  It's a little cliche, but what I expect will happen is Adolin will, after an initial hiccup, embrace and love his brother for his new powers then slowly grow resentful and jealous of them, and then one of three things will happen: he'll either apologize and swear loyalty to Renarin, becoming his squire, become Shallan's squire and resume a positive relationship with Renarin (though never quite as good as the one they had before), or, less likely IMO, he'll take up an Honorblade so he can remain relevant to the story.

I disagree. Well, I agree the visions will not be the cause of a fall-out in between Adolin and Renarin and I agree Adolin will not take it out on Renarin, but I disagree about Adolin being volatile or slow to embrace the new world... Why should he embrace the new world? Why should he be pleased and happy about the changing world? Why him being reluctant makes him volatile? Of course he is reluctant, all of sudden everything he ever took for granted was taken away for him: it has to be the most unsecured situation to be in. Adolin had no reason to want this new world to emerge, unlike his family, he was content with how the former one was. Maybe it was wrong of him not to question his universe, but he remains a young man. You can't ask him to wish for the world to shift when he found nothing wrong with the present one.

I also disagree Adolin will grow jealous of Renarin, of all people. Adolin's character is not defined around the desire to garner more power for himself. He doesn't want power, nor fame, nor glory. All he wants is his family to stay whole, intact and very close to him. Adolin is the kid who, once he gets married, buys a house right next to his parents house or, at the very least, on the same street... His motivations aren't linked towards being more powerful, but towards being loved. His arc is about love, expectation, the desire to please and rejection, not raising up. This would be Dalinar's arc which is about him getting stronger... I think.

And I also disagree about Adolin becoming anyone's squire especially for orders he has no affinity to such as Truthwatchers and Lightweavers. It just doesn't fit within his personality to squire for someone. It is either he is a knight or he isn't, but he isn't a squire, especially not to Renarin. 

I dislike the honorblade idea. It again violates the character's basis by giving him a motivation he never had: more power. Adolin already has a Blade which feels special top him, I do not see him accepting another one. He gets attached to objects, he won't partake from them easily just as Lift isn't partaking her lucky diamond ship even if she could steal a more valuable mark. 

I also dislike the idea Adolin needs to get a honorblade to remain relevant to the story... Why does Adolin need powers to remain relevant? He is relevant, the fact we are speaking about him implies he is relevant. He may not be as relevant as I wished he would be, initially, but he certainly is one of the most relevant character we currently have. As much as I yearn for Adolin to find his own spren (which I believe is his Blade), I also do think his perspective is highly valuable right now, more so than any other character. He is the one who wasn't previously broken, he is the one who didn't want those changes: he is the normal guy, the upper-dog who is forced to live through the change brought forward by the "heroes". Who's to say all heroes have to have super-powers?

 

[rjl]

So wading in, there's loads going on in this topic, so loads to comment on, this will be a long post, TL DR version = I think this is all more complex and interesting than some of you guys may think.

 

1. What will and won't be useful
So here I'm responding primarily to the user maxal above. I may be misreading what you worte but it seemed to me that you were implying that the battles now will be almost entirely an affair of surgebinders I don't agree - if that's what you meant. Sure surgebinders will be more powerful than "generic" shardwielders without surgebinding BUT how many surgebinders will there be? In the Prelude back at the start of WOK there are non-radiant soldiers on the battlefield. Again in WOK in one of Dalinar's flashback he fought alongside some radiants wielding a poker when they had Plate,Blades and stormlight.

 

Considering these facts Adolin as a skilled fighter with Plate and Blade would be incredibly useful in battle and a great asset he's not suddenly useless he may be tier 2 not tier 1 in light of the surgebinders etc but he certainly won't be irrelevant.

 

A key component of the enemies they'll be fighting will likely be stormform parshendi, Adonai did pretty well against this in the battle at the end of WOR.

 

tl dr: facing the everstorm anyone who can use a spear, sword or even a stick to fight will be useful.

 

2. Why do people like Renarin

I think Feather (who likes Renarin far more than the rest of us) probably put this better than anyone else could but for me Renarin is weak but cares, weak but tries and there's something great about the guy who keeps trying despite failing -> it will be very interesting to see what he can do with a bit more power...

 

3. What does the future hold for Adolin

I think this is a very interesting question, as several have commented I don't think he was sufficiently broken for a nahel bond but the death of Sadeas may be a start or even much of the way there, I'm unsure.

 

I personally think he's going to end up as a KR possibly by reviving his blade (apparently confirmed to be an Edgedancer sword) though I personally preferred the idea of him as a Releaser/Dustbringer; maybe he'll stop using his shardblade due to the attitude the new KRs will have about them and following that cessation attract a spren? The anger attributed to Releasers (per one of the epigraphs) suits the image of him at the end of WOR at least slightly; though perhaps an Edgedancer profile fits him better, giving a dualist control over friction and hence enhanced movement seems somehow fitting.

 

Another interesting thought is how non-radiant Adolin will interact with Radiants Renarin and Shallan? - I personally think Shallan clearly needs someone to teach her how to fight, Zahel? Or Adolin maybe?

 

BUT, Adolin is so used to be the one with power, authority and strength below only his father and the king, he's meant to be the one who can protect everyone now he's suddenly got several more people above him; how he responds/reacts will be very interesting - it could break him or maybe he'll adapt; the one thing I can't see is his attitude staying same.

 

4. What does the future hold for Renarin

The next interesting question; Renarin now as an KR he hasn't suddenly become more confident nor is he skilled in combat, he's got a new role and new strength; how will he grow into this role? Will Zahel perhaps be a key part of this? Will Adolin help him? I note that Truthwatchers were noted in one of the epigraphs as somewhat reclusive but I assume he won't be able to be as reclusive as he has been. Maybe more Renarin training with Zahel scenes but not with a blade that screams?

 

 

Hmm... lots of ideas nothing concrete.

 

edit: corrected a mistake in the last bit there

Edited June 17, 2016 by rjl

[Argel]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I also fail to see how his skills as a duelist will matter in the upcoming combat

It's a way to learn stances, forms, techniques, honing fighting instincts, etc.  Have you read Wheel of Time? Think about the sword training Rand, et. al. gets. It's not directly related to combat, but I think it would be really good practice for KRs, especially given their small number right now. Shallan is further along in her oaths/truths, but Kaladin has the most experience for field operations where he may have to rely just on himself. Shallan is good at that with normal stuff, but fighting what's coming? If I was her or Renarin, I would try and work some shardblade training into my routine.]

Edit: Adolin with Honorblade screams "gone to the darkside" to me. I don't see a good/honorable Adolin wielding an honorblade.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Argel

[FeatherWriter]

14 minutes ago, rjl said:

4. What does the future hold for Renarin

The next interesting question; Renarin now as an KR he hasn't suddenly become more confident nor is he skilled in combat, he's got a new role and new strength; how will he grow into this role? Will Zahel perhaps be a key part of this? Will Adolin help him? I note that Truthwatchers were noted in one of the epigraphs as somewhat reclusive but I assume he won't be able to be as reclusive as he has been. Maybe more Renarin training with Zahel scenes but not without a blade that makes him scream?

 

Hmm... lots of ideas nothing concrete.

On the subject of what might happen with Renarin in the future, I think the future sight is going to make a lot of Vorin people dislike/suspect/hate him, which he's already very insecure about. I mean, I think his fellow Radiants and family will support and try to protect, but having people as a whole turn against him would be a plausible source of conflict. I'd guess this is maybe why the Truthwatchers were reclusive, and if anything, Renarin will probably be even less comfortable being out in public than he was before, if his status as a Radiant is known.

Then again, if my suspicions regarding his future-sight are correct, and they aren't (or at least, aren't entirely) Surgebinding, he might find himself without support from the other Radiants. Brandon has been exceptionally cagey about confirming one way or another that Renarin's visions are Truthwatcher powers, and I'm pretty much convinced they're not.

I once wrote a fic where Renarin became Odium's Champion (because I'm a monster who enjoys suffering). I'm somewhat terrified that it seems to be less a "horrible AU idea" and more "actually plausible outcome" the more I think about it.

(I love my smol son and he goes through so much and he doesn't deserve this and just needs love and hugs and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa)

[rjl]

I really can't see Renarin turning evil it would be such a massive change; despite being constantly rejected/looked down on/pitied by lots of people/seemingly everyone he's pressed on and tried to do good.

I very much think his futuresight is a radiant power but I suppose we may have to RAFO that point; maybe it's the extra ability of the truthwatchers maybe it in some way parallels Kaladin's Storm riding?

[maxal]

3 hours ago, rjl said:

So wading in, there's loads going on in this topic, so loads to comment on, this will be a long post, TL DR version = I think this is all more complex and interesting than some of you guys may think.

 

1. What will and won't be useful
So here I'm responding primarily to the user maxal above. I may be misreading what you worte but it seemed to me that you were implying that the battles now will be almost entirely an affair of surgebinders I don't agree - if that's what you meant. Sure surgebinders will be more powerful than "generic" shardwielders without surgebinding BUT how many surgebinders will there be? In the Prelude back at the start of WOK there are non-radiant soldiers on the battlefield. Again in WOK in one of Dalinar's flashback he fought alongside some radiants wielding a poker when they had Plate,Blades and stormlight.

 

Considering these facts Adolin as a skilled fighter with Plate and Blade would be incredibly useful in battle and a great asset he's not suddenly useless he may be tier 2 not tier 1 in light of the surgebinders etc but he certainly won't be irrelevant.

 

A key component of the enemies they'll be fighting will likely be stormform parshendi, Adonai did pretty well against this in the battle at the end of WOR.

 

tl dr: facing the everstorm anyone who can use a spear, sword or even a stick to fight will be useful.

Maxal, that's me  I think I have to precise my thoughts furthermore. The glimpses we have had of the former Desolation were rather dreadful: only a remnant of a remnant of mankind survived. There were so little survivors and they were so scattered around, they basically had to go back to Stone Age. By the time the next Desolation hit, they weren't much more evolved as the time span was too short. It was only Taln abnormal level of endurance towards torture which allowed mankind to benefit through 4500 years of peace to further evolve. 

I have thus think whatever looms into a Desolation is so terrifying, so powerful, so deadly only the combined effort of several surgebinders managed to punch through it. Normal soldiers life spend was quite probably very short which is likely why Alethi traditionally married young... Young so they would have time to shire more sons for the wars before they died.

Adolin is the best Shardbearer we have met, he is a gifted duelist: the 4 on 1 duel was his crowning moment and yet, when he was faced with Szeth, he was as useless as a child. The story has been written to show us how inefficient and unbalanced a full Shardbearer truly was when it comes to supernatural foes. Sure, he will always be stronger then mere soldiers, but in a world where survival will rest on the shoulders of Radiants, his status is bond to suffer. Leadership will always go to the most capable and Adolin is just out of his league. It isn't so much he will be useless, he will always be useful, but he won't be as useful as he previously was. 

All in all, I am not saying there won't be a role for him to occupy in this new world, there certainly will, but it doesn't appear as it will be grand or really interesting. Moreover, the essence of my post is part of me feels keeping Adolin into the same role has been occupying since book 1 does not make for interesting character development. It is so very static.

3 hours ago, rjl said:

3. What does the future hold for Adolin

I think this is a very interesting question, as several have commented I don't think he was sufficiently broken for a nahel bond but the death of Sadeas may be a start or even much of the way there, I'm unsure.

 

I personally think he's going to end up as a KR possibly by reviving his blade (apparently confirmed to be an Edgedancer sword) though I personally preferred the idea of him as a Releaser/Dustbringer; maybe he'll stop using his shardblade due to the attitude the new KRs will have about them and following that cessation attract a spren? The anger attributed to Releasers (per one of the epigraphs) suits the image of him at the end of WOR at least slightly; though perhaps an Edgedancer profile fits him better, giving a dualist control over friction and hence enhanced movement seems somehow fitting.

 

Another interesting thought is how non-radiant Adolin will interact with Radiants Renarin and Shallan? - I personally think Shallan clearly needs someone to teach her how to fight, Zahel? Or Adolin maybe?

 

BUT, Adolin is so used to be the one with power, authority and strength below only his father and the king, he's meant to be the one who can protect everyone now he's suddenly got several more people above him; how he responds/reacts will be very interesting - it could break him or maybe he'll adapt; the one thing I can't see is his attitude staying same.

The Blade indeed is an Edgedancer Blade. I personally do not agree with the Dustbringer theory. After spending so long defending it, I no longer believe it has solid foundations. The list of cons is horribly long and more importantly, I disagree with the argument linking Adolin to this order because he feels anger. Adolin is not an angry person (IMHO, Kaladin is a much more angry individual than Adolin), he is an emotional one. Anger is an emotion, so yes he feels it, just as he feels a wide variety of other emotions. Anger is the one reaction he reserves towards situations where he is prevented to act when he sees a course of actions: it angers him to be powerless, to let abuse run lose, to allow bullies (namely Sadeas) get away with it. It however isn't his core quality.

I also do not see Adolin purposefully discard his Blade. Ever. I see him being force to unbound it, but not give it up on his own volition.

This being said, I agree Adolin cannot stay the same. Nobody can go through so much change and walk out of it unscathed.

3 hours ago, rjl said:

4. What does the future hold for Renarin

The next interesting question; Renarin now as an KR he hasn't suddenly become more confident nor is he skilled in combat, he's got a new role and new strength; how will he grow into this role? Will Zahel perhaps be a key part of this? Will Adolin help him? I note that Truthwatchers were noted in one of the epigraphs as somewhat reclusive but I assume he won't be able to be as reclusive as he has been. Maybe more Renarin training with Zahel scenes but not with a blade that screams?

I personally think Renarin needs to find his own strength. Only he can walk on his journey and, based on his actions all through WoR, I noticed a distinct desire to evolve outside his family unit. Joining Bridge 4 was a step into this direction, into being his own person, into learning away from Adolin's shadow. 

3 hours ago, Argel said:

It's a way to learn stances, forms, techniques, honing fighting instincts, etc.  Have you read Wheel of Time? Think about the sword training Rand, et. al. gets. It's not directly related to combat, but I think it would be really good practice for KRs, especially given their small number right now. Shallan is further along in her oaths/truths, but Kaladin has the most experience for field operations where he may have to rely just on himself. Shallan is good at that with normal stuff, but fighting what's coming? If I was her or Renarin, I would try and work some shardblade training into my routine.]

Edit: Adolin with Honorblade screams "gone to the darkside" to me. I don't see a good/honorable Adolin wielding an honorblade.

It isn't his skills aren't useful, it is I, as a reader, find those potential arc lack... hmm... Intensity? Depth? 

3 hours ago, FeatherWriter said:

On the subject of what might happen with Renarin in the future, I think the future sight is going to make a lot of Vorin people dislike/suspect/hate him, which he's already very insecure about. I mean, I think his fellow Radiants and family will support and try to protect, but having people as a whole turn against him would be a plausible source of conflict. I'd guess this is maybe why the Truthwatchers were reclusive, and if anything, Renarin will probably be even less comfortable being out in public than he was before, if his status as a Radiant is known.

Then again, if my suspicions regarding his future-sight are correct, and they aren't (or at least, aren't entirely) Surgebinding, he might find himself without support from the other Radiants. Brandon has been exceptionally cagey about confirming one way or another that Renarin's visions are Truthwatcher powers, and I'm pretty much convinced they're not.

I once wrote a fic where Renarin became Odium's Champion (because I'm a monster who enjoys suffering). I'm somewhat terrified that it seems to be less a "horrible AU idea" and more "actually plausible outcome" the more I think about it.

(I love my smol son and he goes through so much and he doesn't deserve this and just needs love and hugs and aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa)

Brandon has avoided answering all questions relating to Renarin's visions which implies there are more going on here than a simple quirk of his orders. I have read all sort of theories ranking from it being a by-product of his surge, to him not really being a Truthwatcher, but bonded to a Voidspren... My personal thoughts are there must be a reasons Vorinism states visions of the future are from the Voidbringers. It may be young Renarin is trapped with two elements. I have no idea how both conditions may exist, but it seems a valid possibility.

For the rest, I'd say we should be careful in assuming everyone will find right away about Renarin's visions... His father would never ever through his youngest son under the bus: it is safer to assume the Kholins will keep Renarin's ability a secret. He won't be found out right away and it may be he won't be found out until he speaks up. I thus do not think it a given the Alethi society will start to shun on Renarin more than they previously had.

2 hours ago, rjl said:

I really can't see Renarin turning evil it would be such a massive change; despite being constantly rejected/looked down on/pitied by lots of people/seemingly everyone he's pressed on and tried to do good.

I very much think his futuresight is a radiant power but I suppose we may have to RAFO that point; maybe it's the extra ability of the truthwatchers maybe it in some way parallels Kaladin's Storm riding?

I can see it. Odium preys on weaknesses, extrapolates on their inner desires and Renarin is one character who yearns to be useful so badly he may be ready to do anything to get this feeling of worth. I can certainly envision Renarin being toyed with by the evil entity, perhaps not directly, but he wants too much for himself. 

I personally do not wish to see Renarin being more looked down and pitied by others than he already is: I want to read him find his inner strength and his own worth. I want him to find his use and, no, it won't be armed combat, but I want him to realize not all paths have to pass through the battlefield. This would be my preferred arc for him. One of my pet peeves is he actually ends up saving his brother's life, really saving with his surges, but it may be a tad cheesy. Still, I'd love to read it.

[FeatherWriter]

Yeah, I'll admit, while I don't think Renarin would ever really intentionally go "evil"... that doesn't necessarily mean he might never become an antagonist. I mean, even aside from the fact that he has a lot of very obvious physical and emotional vulnerabilities that could be exploited by manipulative force or person, there's the simple fact that Renarin doesn't necessarily have to comply.

I mean, we've already seen firsthand: Renarin losing control of himself as visions of doom take him over and force him to scrawl prophecies on the ground as he screams, literally, "Almighty, why have you cursed me so?"

There's a good chance he could be used by evil forces regardless of whether he wants to or not. Or an evil force could be controlling the visions. Dalinar was fearful of that: he didn't want to trust his own visions until he could be sure where they were coming from, afraid that someone was manipulating him. I mean, for those of you who have watched Avengers: Age of Ultron, Wanda Maximoff is a stellar example of how showing someone visions of their worst fears and "darkest timeline" futures is a good way to A.) manipulate them into doing whatever you want, or B.) causing them to make really bad decisions in the name of a presumed 'greater good.'

(Also I am a sucker for both plots that have mind control and plots that have good people being manipulated into doing very bad things, so I'll be happy if either of those happen. And by "happy" I mean, screaming in tearful anguish through every page while lamenting that I will never achieve such levels of pure evil, myself. Brandon is an inspiration to evil monsters everywhere.)

[+hwiles]

On 6/17/2016 at 6:57 PM, Argel said:

Edit: Adolin with Honorblade screams "gone to the darkside" to me. I don't see a good/honorable Adolin wielding an honorblade.

I feel like the Honorblades have been unfairly given a bad rep and I think your post accurately captures how a lot of people generally feel about them.  From what little we've seen, the Heralds started off as agents of Honor who led an admirable and lengthy campaign against the forces of Odium.  Sure, most, or possibly all, of them have gone totally bananas by the time the series starts, but back when they were wielding the Honorblades they were...well, honorable.

The Honorblades don't require oaths from their wielders or impose ethical guidelines which definitely gives them a tremendous capacity for being used to commit atrocities, however, this doesn't inherently make them evil.  Do I really think Adolin will take up an Honorblade?  Probably not.  I will say though that, judging from his personality and moral fiber, I think he would have been a good candidate for one.  He murdered Sadeas because he felt the Kingdom couldn't handle any more divisiveness in the face of a new Desolation; there's a strong argument that this action is simultaneously honorable and unethical.  Where to draw the line in fighting a war has confounded men for ages, deciding when an unethical means can justify an end is a terrible, difficult, and highly abstract choice.  Adolin's actions (attacking and killing an unsuspecting man out of sight of witnesses and then covering it up) defy most ethical frameworks held by civilized groups of people.  But at the same time, Sadeas was a monster who was almost certainly going to cause needless death and destruction in the relatively near future.  I could see a spren sitting on a Radiant's shoulder having a serious problem with killing someone who, according to societal convention, hasn't done anything wrong yet.  Where the line between right and wrong gets fuzzy and survival requires swift, brutal, and decisive action is where the Honorblades thrive.  I hope at least some of the Honorblades end up in the hands of people who are, at least in some capacity, on the same side as the Radiants; it would strike me as a missed opportunity if they all ended up locked up, deliberately unused, or in the hands of Odium's agents (both witting and unwitting).

[Humpty]

A few thoughts... I have been reading this post and it is very interesting.  I too am a big Renarin fan so ill start with him. I am not sure if any of you realize what a huge role Renarin should have in future books. A couple of questions for you to think about...

What is the biggest problem the new order of Knights Radiant have at the current moment? (besides the worlds parshmen turning into voidbringers).....Answer: The biggest problem they have is lack of information. As a six year combat veteran I tend to think of things tacticly first, the first rule of war being know your enemy.

Who can provide that information? its pretty simple when you think about it. Renarin!

Jasnah would be a big help but everyone thinks she is dead and she is in the middle of BFE and is not in a position to help.. One of the Secret societies could help with intell. however; I do not see them helping anyone but themselves, it seems to me the meddlers, as I like to call them, are one of the worlds biggest dangers as they seem to kill anyone who learns too much about what is happening.

The Heralds could help however; they are Oathbreakers and are broken and unreliable.

Wit could help but like the other meddlers he has his own agenda and probably wants to keep information about the greater cosmere to himself.

From a Strategy standpoint Renarin is the single most important character in the series. The tactical advantage of knowing when and where the enemy will strike, before they do is not to be underestimated. It is my believe that Renarin will advise Dalinar in terms of armies, where to send soldiers providing the good side with information about future events so that the armies might be in the right place at the right time. This will become especially helpful once they figure out how to get the other Oathgates working. He will do it in a way so he wont expose himself as a seer/prophet like he did with the scratches on the floor and walls. Or he might confide in Dalinar about what he can do now that he is a Radiant himself.

Now for a few thoughts on Adolin It is my believe that Adolin is on his way to being broken I am sorry to say. I like him a lot but the story seems to be going that way. I believe one of the Dalinars first acts as the head of the new order of Radiants will be to renounce his title of Highprince of Kholinar the reason being it will help legitimize the New Order with other nations. Adolin will take over as Highprince before they find out that he murdered Sadeas,  Dalinar will not be able to protect him once they figure out who did it. I believe he will be "exiled and striped of his shards" along with a few helpful Squire bridgemen with secret orders to help stabilize their homeland. The other highprinces will see this as a punishment enough.

As for talk of the Honorblade the best choice will be for Dalinar to keep it for himself or at least until the Herald Jezerin shows up demanding it back. Remember Dalinar is a Shardless Radiant.