Kaladin Vs. Vin

[Knight Oblivion]

  Even if Vin put a coin in Kaladin's eye it would not be that big of a deal. 

 

I'd imagine that it would depend on how far the coin penetrates into Kaladin's skull. If it goes through the brain then it would probably interfere with the cognitive aspect required for Stormlight to heal oneself. There's also that rough story of Jasnah's time between her "death" and the Epilogue of WoR where she mentions that her spren, Ivory, told her that a crushing blow to the head would kill a person with enough Stormlight in them. It's not much of a stretch to assume that damaging the brain by shoving a coin far enough through the eye would do the same.

 

Then again, it isn't the best source (both the story itself and Ivory since we know little of the latter). http://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/ <--- That's the link to the story.

 

 

Anyways, as I keep mentioning in the threads about Roshar vs. Scadrial, the location of the battle is incredibly important for determining the outcome of the battle. Remember that Roshar has a gravitational force of about 0.7 g while Scadrial is an Earth analogue and can thus be fairly assumed to have a standard gravitational force of 1 g. I don't know if Stormlight would be capable of wholly compensating the increase in gravity for a Scadrial-based battle while providing its default strength/speed boost. Kaladin's sense of self is related to his connection to Roshar so Stormlight's effects might be muted on Scadrial. He does get to skirt past the breathing issue that standard Rosharans would definitely have due to Stormlight allowing one to not require to breath (and it's detrimental to the Surgebinder/Radiant in general since it just adds another avenue for Stormlight to leave).

 

Outside of the reminder about gravity and the importance of environment, I also feel like Vin shouldn't get Bendalloy, Cadmium, Nicrosil, or Chromium. In her era, there was no knowledge of these metals nor their effects.

 

Now, let's talk about weaknesses. Vin's are obvious. Much of her maneuverability depends upon their being metal in the environment so she can use Steel and Iron, Allomancy doesn't grant a healing factor similar to Stormlight (or one even in the same league), she needs to ingest metals to use her powers, Kaladin's gear would be heavily invested and thus require Duralumin pushes and pulls to even effect, and she's not the most physically imposing person. Kaladin, meanwhile, has a few obvious weaknesses and some not so obvious. Much of Kaladin's powers (the Lashings) are dependent upon actual touch barring the use of the Basic Lashing on himself and Stormlight's passive effects, his abilities are dependent upon Stormlight for which his body is a porous container (not to mention that he cannot infinitely store it like we've seen and external containers, gems, are heavy/bulky), gravity issues if the fight is on a planet with gravity higher than Roshar's (which opens him up to be stalled until he runs out of Stormlight), he actually has follow his Order's Ideals meaning that he has to be protecting somebody to fight/kill Vin or else Syl dies and his powers go away (not to mention that his ability to use them starts to come and go as seen in WoR), and he's still vulnerable to intense trauma to the head regardless of Stormlight.

 

However, several aspects of this match-up are pure speculation. For instance, we don't know if emotional Allomancy has an effect on people with a Shardplate helm on their heads. We also don't know how long a full Windrunner can hold Stormlight for while using their abilities and healing besides that they seem to get more efficient in its consumption when using their powers. Hell, we don't even know how "living" Shardplate works in conjunction with Stormlight's passive abilities. I wish we did, but for now I'll ignore those questions rattling in my mind.

 

In a straight fight, say somewhere on a Scadrial-esque planet with similar amounts of metal in its cities to even the maneuverability field, with both of them knowing each others capabilities I'd say Vin would win the fight. Besides her innate strength in Allomancy with respect for her time, Vin's main strength is how she seems to be extremely skillful in using her powers even in new ways (she learned that complicated horseshoe traveling trick within like a half an hour and picks up fairly advanced uses of her powers extremely quickly during her training). She would probably know to stall out Kaladin until he runs out of Stormlight pretty quickly following that part of the OP's premise. It basically comes down to Surgebinding requiring direct investiture that can only be stored in bulky/heavy and porous containers while Allomancy requires easily portable metals as a focus to allow them to directly access Preservation's power. Vin could just use a bandolier or two of vials to keep her topped off since she, ideally, wouldn't have to worry about attacks from Allomancers. Once out of Stormlight, Vin just needs to find Kaladin and deal with him.

 

Of course, this is based upon a planet with Scadrial's gravity and cities with decent concentrations of metals. Without the metals or even out in the open, like a plain, Vin is in trouble and would most likely lose. Only a lucky steelpush of a projectile through a Shardplate helm's eyeslit or a lucky shot through the upper portion of the head without it would defeat Kaladin. In a plain or without the metals, Vin essentially loses much of her maneuverability which would limit her ability to stall Kaladin out. If the planet the fight takes place on has gravity akin to Roshar's than stalling out would become less viable due to Kaladin being physically adapted to such a world. Then again, Vin would be a bit stronger and faster so who would win would thus, once again, become dependent on physical location.

[Nightblade]

Brandon posted this on his website http://brandonsanderson.com/reader-mail-survey-of-awesomeness/

[Savanorn he/him]

Realistically, I don't know who beats Vin.

She's supremely skilled among even mistborn, and quick witted enough to pick up things and capitalize on new opportunities in a way most Sanderson characters aren't. 

Like, by TFE she killed mistborn as a rookie, even in WoA she fights a Zane burning Atium and wins and in HoA she fights a dozen Inquisitors at once.  

Plus she's ruthless, pragmatic and opportunistic in a way that most other Sanderson characters just aren't.

Kel would be a fairer fight for Kal, but even then, there's too much that boils down to where and how much investiture are available. 

 

[ScarletSabre he/him]

If we consider them without any power advantages, pure skill and strength, Vin would win, because while Kaladin and his spear have the advantage in size, reach and strength, Vin is smaller, used to fighting against larger opponents, and is agile and quick as all Braize. 

Kaladin is trained as a soldier, used to facing a charge from opponents fighting with the same style of weapon as his own, spears, swords and hammers, weapons with a long reach to capitalise on the strength of those weilding them, more than the skill from what we've seen. While I have no doubt that Kaladin, a master of the spear, would have techniques to deal with someone close to him and behind the head of his weapon, it would take him a moment to adjust to the fighting style of Vin as an assassin, and we know that a moment is all Vin needs to pull things off in a fight. 

I could easily see her baiting out a strike from Kaladin, closing the distance when he thrusts with his spear and dodging the way she'd dodge a coin she knew was flying towards her, and bury her knives in his throat or heart. Assassin beats soldier in this type of rock paper scissors matchup... 

Of course, with their powers in the mix, sans Vin being at Mistpoint or becominh a Vessel, things would be a lot more even. Though I'd still give the edge to her for a few reasons, like Kaladin not having Shardplate yet, and not having consciously used a reverse Lashing yet as far as we've seen to draw things away and into something else the way he did with his sheild and the arrows. He's not practiced it, so he'd only have Syl as a shield to protect him from a barrage of coins, which would take away her as a weapon, limit his vision of Vin if she aims for his eyes and forces him to block, and only protect him from the front, all things Vin can and will ruthlessley exploit. He also has no experience/defence as far as we know against Emotional Allomancy, which could be used to bait him etc.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

7 hours ago, Savanorn said:

and in HoA she fights a dozen Inquisitors at once. 

As has been pointed out to me before, thst fight was basically her getting fairly stomped until she srarted burning e mists, which is almost categorically "divine intervention"

[ScarletSabre he/him]

16 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As has been pointed out to me before, thst fight was basically her getting fairly stomped until she srarted burning e mists, which is almost categorically "divine intervention"

But at the same time she held her own without them, at least insofar as surviving. And don't forget that the Inquisitors, outside of being in a Blood Frenzy, are all basically puppets on strings being controlled by one mind. So she lasted a good while against a dozen superpowered killing machines with a hive mind for co-ordinated attacks

[Savanorn he/him]

17 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As has been pointed out to me before, thst fight was basically her getting fairly stomped until she srarted burning e mists, which is almost categorically "divine intervention"

Not at all, this was a tired Vin with extremely limited metals fighting a dozen of the most dangerous combat creatures on Scadrial, maybe in the whole Cosmere, at the time. She does an extremely reasonable job considering just how outgunned and outmatched she is. Basically, if she survived a fight like that for more than a few seconds, she's achieving something, something that pretty much no one else we've seen could have done. 

It's a pretty good look at just how good Vin is that she's not immediately torn to pieces, and she even lands a few good hits. Indeed, the real 'defeat' happens once her metals run out. 

Most people, Kelsier included, struggle to fight a few Hazekillers, let alone a team of Allomancers (which Vin does twice in WoA), let alone what amounts to a team of superpowered Mistborn.

Don't get me wrong, I like Kaladin, but unless you start to weigh things in his favour (like making them fight in a stormlight rich environment, depleting the area of metal) it's pretty hard to see him winning this. 

I'd guess that in a completely depowered setting Kal would likely have the edge, he's relatively strong and probably better in a stand-up fight, but this assumes maximum will-to-kill. Failing this, I think Vin would win, because Kal hates to kill people and Vin can justify it to herself more easily.  

 

59 minutes ago, Rawrbert said:

But at the same time she held her own without them, at least insofar as surviving. And don't forget that the Inquisitors, outside of being in a Blood Frenzy, are all basically puppets on strings being controlled by one mind. So she lasted a good while against a dozen superpowered killing machines with a hive mind for co-ordinated attacks

Yus.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 hours ago, Rawrbert said:

But at the same time she held her own without them, at least insofar as surviving.

2 hours ago, Savanorn said:

It's a pretty good look at just how good Vin is that she's not immediately torn to pieces, and she even lands a few good hits. Indeed, the real 'defeat' happens once her metals run out. 

Fair enough, that does mean quite a bit. My statement is the product of a different discussion that lead to a reread, and the scene went a lot worse than I remembered it going. So her lack of straight up demolishing people sorta.. stuck.

Edited October 20, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[BrightVoid he/him]

Honestly even though Vin is more skilled, a better fighter, and has more will to kill, I still think that Kaladin would win.  All in takes is one hit to any part of the legs and Vin looses a lot of agility, her main advantage.  Hit to the arm means that she can no longer throw coins/use a knife with that hand, and a hit to the torso means death.  Kaladin can take a few hits and be able to heal just fine, he only has to worry about running out of stormlight in a long fight.  Vin on the other hand cannot afford to get hit even once, because she looses a lot of advantages that cannot be recovered.  Along with the fact that the blade can change shape unexpectedly makes it hard too see Vin coming out without being crippled at the least.

[Nightblade]

If Kaladin wasn't protecting someone he loved Vin would win, but if Kaladin was protecting someone really close to him he would win for sure.

[asterion137 he/him]

On 10/19/2016 at 2:27 AM, Rawrbert said:

If we consider them without any power advantages, pure skill and strength, Vin would win, because while Kaladin and his spear have the advantage in size, reach and strength, Vin is smaller, used to fighting against larger opponents, and is agile and quick as all Braize. 

Kaladin is trained as a soldier, used to facing a charge from opponents fighting with the same style of weapon as his own, spears, swords and hammers, weapons with a long reach to capitalise on the strength of those weilding them, more than the skill from what we've seen. While I have no doubt that Kaladin, a master of the spear, would have techniques to deal with someone close to him and behind the head of his weapon, it would take him a moment to adjust to the fighting style of Vin as an assassin, and we know that a moment is all Vin needs to pull things off in a fight. 

I could easily see her baiting out a strike from Kaladin, closing the distance when he thrusts with his spear and dodging the way she'd dodge a coin she knew was flying towards her, and bury her knives in his throat or heart. Assassin beats soldier in this type of rock paper scissors matchup... 

Of course, with their powers in the mix, sans Vin being at Mistpoint or becominh a Vessel, things would be a lot more even. Though I'd still give the edge to her for a few reasons, like Kaladin not having Shardplate yet, and not having consciously used a reverse Lashing yet as far as we've seen to draw things away and into something else the way he did with his sheild and the arrows. He's not practiced it, so he'd only have Syl as a shield to protect him from a barrage of coins, which would take away her as a weapon, limit his vision of Vin if she aims for his eyes and forces him to block, and only protect him from the front, all things Vin can and will ruthlessley exploit. He also has no experience/defence as far as we know against Emotional Allomancy, which could be used to bait him etc.

I would take a powerless kaladin against vin any day. Vin is fast and agile, but she's way too used to fighting with pewter, while kaladin has years of experience with no stormlight. I also think Kaladin is too quick to be hit with any non-duralumin coinshot and if he's flying around vin won't be able to hit him with projectiles at all. Also once kaladin gets within stabbing range it's basically game over if he has Syl.

[Voidus]

6 hours ago, asterion137 said:

I would take a powerless kaladin against vin any day. Vin is fast and agile, but she's way too used to fighting with pewter, while kaladin has years of experience with no stormlight. I also think Kaladin is too quick to be hit with any non-duralumin coinshot and if he's flying around vin won't be able to hit him with projectiles at all. Also once kaladin gets within stabbing range it's basically game over if he has Syl.

She's also way too used to fighting bigger, stronger people with longer reach, usually in groups. She typically turns them into shredded fragments pretty quickly.
She's also way more used to both general aerial combat and shooting a flying target.

In terms of stabbing range, she's pretty used to avoiding getting hit since she wears no armour, a Shardblade is barely any different to any other sword in terms of danger level. Plus of course, Atium means she pretty much instantly wins and Kals head is quickly crushed with a Durala-pewter powered roundhouse to his face.

[Omniforce he/him]

As has been said, In building crowded area with lots of metal, Vin wins. In the open unless Vin gets in a really lucky shot before Kaladin can react, He wins. Of course I don't think Kaladin would kill her in that situation . Might just knock her out and hog tie her. Any one know if Syl could lessen the spiritual pressure her blows do. If so she could just turn into a homing weapon and fly through Vin and do just enough spiritual damage to knock her out. I'm pretty sure glass daggers wouldnt stop a speeding spren

Edited October 24, 2016 by Omniforce
Autocorrect

[asterion137 he/him]

17 hours ago, Voidus said:

She's also way too used to fighting bigger, stronger people with longer reach, usually in groups. She typically turns them into shredded fragments pretty quickly.
She's also way more used to both general aerial combat and shooting a flying target.

In terms of stabbing range, she's pretty used to avoiding getting hit since she wears no armour, a Shardblade is barely any different to any other sword in terms of danger level. Plus of course, Atium means she pretty much instantly wins and Kals head is quickly crushed with a Durala-pewter powered roundhouse to his face.

 give one good reason why kaladin won't just chop vin in half with his shardblade when he's got better flight speed, reflexes and maneuverability, and Vin has no atium as specified by op

Edited October 25, 2016 by asterion137

[Voidus]

1 hour ago, asterion137 said:

 give one good reason why kaladin won't just chop vin in half with his shardblade when he's got better flight speed, reflexes and maneuverability, and Vin has no atium as specified by op

Flight speed is debatable and he has waaaaaaay less experience in controlling it.

Reflexes they're even at best

Maneuverability again he is seriously lacking vins experience.

 

He has clumsy speed and strength on his side, as i mentioned Vin is more than used to dealing with that kind of opponent.

[asterion137 he/him]

23 minutes ago, Voidus said:

Flight speed is debatable and he has waaaaaaay less experience in controlling it.

Reflexes they're even at best

Maneuverability again he is seriously lacking vins experience.

 

He has clumsy speed and strength on his side, as i mentioned Vin is more than used to dealing with that kind of opponent.

He's not clumsy at all when he fights by instinct and only a headshot will kill him. Nothing from vin shows her speed anywhere near when Kaladin was dodging the arrows or cutting down six parshendi before a shardbearer could react

[Voidus]

2 hours ago, asterion137 said:

He's not clumsy at all when he fights by instinct and only a headshot will kill him. Nothing from vin shows her speed anywhere near when Kaladin was dodging the arrows or cutting down six parshendi before a shardbearer could react

He is compared to a practiced Mistborn in the air.

Duralumin + steel or pewter multiple times.

And to be honest probably regular pewter once or twice too.

Vin was dodging arrows since before Kal was born.

[ScarletSabre he/him]

On 24/10/2016 at 2:23 AM, asterion137 said:

I would take a powerless kaladin against vin any day. Vin is fast and agile, but she's way too used to fighting with pewter, while kaladin has years of experience with no stormlight. I also think Kaladin is too quick to be hit with any non-duralumin coinshot and if he's flying around vin won't be able to hit him with projectiles at all. Also once kaladin gets within stabbing range it's basically game over if he has Syl.

Don't forget that Kaladin's years of experience also comes with fighting as part of a squadron of other spearmen in formation. As the leader, sure, but more often than not with someone to either side of him to guard him, or guard his back, whereas Vin's more used to fighting by herself.

if Kal gets Syl within stabbing range, sure, it's over, but if we're considering them without powers, would he have Syl? She's not exactly a power, per say, but her manifesting as a Sprenblade is certainly a product of the bond that gives his powers. Are we considering Kal and Vin with no Stormlight/Metals and raw skill/strength? Or with no powers at all, including Sprenblades?

[Dr. LIFE he/him]

On April 13, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Knight Oblivion said:

Outside of the reminder about gravity and the importance of environment, I also feel like Vin shouldn't get Bendalloy, Cadmium, Nicrosil, or Chromium. In her era, there was no knowledge of these metals nor their effects.

I Feel that if Kaladin has a shardplate and All oaths then Vin should get all metals. Kal also doesn't know about the rest of the oaths or their effects, so by the logic above he shouldn't have those either.

Personally, I feel Vin would win. In WoA she kills around 300 men when attacking Cett, and Seth did about the same thing in Stormlight Archives, but then Vin increases in strength and Kal could barely beat Szeth. True Kal would be stronger in this scenario but Vin is more ruthless and she would (To quote TenSoon in Shadows of Self.) "Become the Knife."