Why Wasn't Szeth a Skybreaker Long Ago?

[Argel he/him]

To the first: that's my very point.  As I understand it, unless he was given a timeframe to work within, then he had courses of action available that would have allowed him to uphold both laws. 

 

1. Present tense is the default in English. For example, if a friend asks you for a glass of water, does he mean "now" or "decades later". So, even if no time frame was given, it would be understood to mean "now" (and of course, in the order given). Or more to the point, if the mob boss orders a hit and doesn't say when, is there any question about "now" vs. "decades"?!
2. As a foreigner, Szeth likely has no legal standing in the other countries, so no legal recourse.
3. Even if Szeth did, it would likely take decades of research, investigations, political maneuvering, etc. to legally depose a king. Not to mention, he would also need to learn the laws of each country, and presumably enough money to fund such a lengthy operation.  And then do that for each country. I doubt even decades would be enough time.
4. And if he could figure out how to pull all of that that off, someone else either in each country or spies from other countries with more direct interest would have figured it out first.
5. There may not be a legal way to remove the king. Either literally within the law or because the king is not guilty of anything that would allow him to be removed. It's not like removing kings via legal maneuvering is a common occurrence in our history, so we have no reason or evidence to believe it is on Roshar.
6. And even if all of the above was possible, Taravangian was not an idiot when he put that list together. He knows the assassinations need to be done sooner than later. We also know he put his own name on the list and safeguards to make sure he was not actually assassinated. We have no reason to believe that he would not make it clear these need to be done sooner than later.
7. And even if Taravangian was not clear, how long would he wait before calling Szeth back to find out why not even one assassination had been made??

Sorry, but we can reasonably conclude that Szeth had no legal options available to him in the other countries.

 

Interesting quotes, though. Looks like Nightblood can do some kind of Nahel Bond, and the surges it can provide will be different than the 10 known to Roshar. I wonder if it will turn his eyes red....

[StormWrath he/him]

You're quoting Nale. If he's insane, twisted, etc. then what he says can hardly be taken as credible/face value.

And assassinating most of the worlds leaders is sowing chaos, not order. And Dalinar is not trying to bring the voidbringers back, and is arguably one of the most honorable men around, certainly out of those in a position of power. There's no honor or justice in killing Dalinar. Or Taravangian before Szeth learns the truth about him:

Edit: As a side note, if Nale was as involved as you suggest then he would know Szeth was not Truthless. Some possibly interesting implications there.

[C. James-Mayer he/him]

Everybody is talking about why Szeth wouldn't attract a highspren but we need to remember that if the spren want people want people that uphold the law they probably want to do this themself too. While some types of spren sended people to bond humans again it is possible that highspren have a law against this, so it is possible that haven't actually sent anybody (yet).

 

Actually, from all the things said about why and how Szeth hasn't attracted a highspren, this is the most logical one. Thank you for the insight!

 

Thinking about it, law and order is what actually defines the Order of the Skybreakers. The same could be said about the highspren, which could be viewed as the embodiment of law and order. If they do have a rule/law against bonding a human, then they would not go out in the Physical Realm and do it. We can safely assume that in this scenario there could be no rogue highsprens. What kind of highspren will you be if you break your own rules?

 

Maybe someone should actually convince the removal of the law, so the highspren can go out and seek the Nahel bond with humans? Jasnah? Anyone?

[Argel he/him]

Or maybe they are waiting for the KRs to be reformed, which happens to be when Szeth is given Nightblood. Seems like even less of a coincidence now.

[Blightsong he/him]

Szeth wasn't really "broken" before killing all those people during book one. His spirit web didn't have enough space for a spren

[Vander]

... I could say a lot here, but I'm going to control myself.

[Blightsong he/him]

... I could say a lot here, but I'm going to control myself.

Say something if you want to contribute... You might know more about Szeth than the rest of us.

[natc]

Yeah, I'm not sure how making a post just to say that you won't say anything helps. We didn't need to know that, as we didn't exactly expect you to speak.

Fire away.

[AerionBFII he/him]

I think he will eventually Bond a Highspren. He obeyed his laws and the laws of his people even when they were driving him insane.

I think that's why the Skybreakers and Windrunners were always at each others throats, Laws and Honor are two sides of the same coin but so so different.

[natc]

Well law is a moral obligation to your country, so in a way it relates to honor.

Windrunners walk the thin line of being too unrealistic with their idealism, while Skybreakers risk focusing too much on the retribution and not the meaning behind the law.

[Vander]

Yeah, I'm not sure how making a post just to say that you won't say anything helps. We didn't need to know that, as we didn't exactly expect you to speak.

Fire away.

Eh, fair enough. 

 

As for the above, I feel like a lot of people believe that Skybreakers obsessively follow the Law and not what is right. This is understandable, as the only example (Speculatively) we have right now is Szeth, who put his nation`s law above what he believed to be right.

 

However, I think this was mainly because he was told repeatedly that he had done wrong; because everything he knew was stripped from him, and he was bound- by his own Honor- to serve out his punishment. In short- He was helpless, thinking himself that he had done wrong, and that what he got was what he deserved.

So, if he is given the power to make his own decisions again, I think he will become what may be the "True" Skybreaker- One who follows not the Law, but justice.

 

(Basically, if my rambling was as incoherent as I fear, I think Skybreakers don't follow the law specifically as much as they do justice. Kinda like what a judge is supposed to be, actually.)

 

Szeth wasn't really "broken" before killing all those people during book one. His spirit web didn't have enough space for a spren

From what I understand, the "cracking" of a soul requires significant emotional trauma. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what the following is based off of.

 

From what we know of his past, Szeth somehow discovered that the Radiants and the Voidbringers were returning. This caused a massive panic in his country, and culminated in him being called a liar (To use an understatement), enslaved, and thrust out of his home. 

 

He comes from a culture where killing and wielding weapons is anathema, and only the lowest are made to kill. Thus, we can logically assume that, to him, this is a truly evil act. As such, being forced to do it - especially after all of the above- would definitely have caused enough emotional trauma to "break" him.

 

That said, I don't believe he has a Nahel Bond, as of yet. And, considering that he now has Nightblood, he might not need it. (Which is now making me wonder how a Bond with Nightblood would work, if at all.

 

Edit: I feel like I've made a fool of myself. You decide, though.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Car'a'carn

[natc]

Well, they do swear by "I will put the law above all else", or something along those lines.

I think the spirit of the Skybreaker philosophy is that the law is the most consistent and objective way to judge whether you have done the right thing.

Windrunner righteousness is completely open to individual interpretation and will probably differ from one Windrunner to the next in the grey areas. They can't all be doing the right thing if they give different responses in the same situation yes? The same is with how every country treats their laws, of course, but there's only so many kingdoms, and in ancient times hundreds of Windrunners. The law is more stable of a frame of reference, as to some extent it reflects the will of the people (or it's meant to anyway) with regards to what is wrong and should be condemned.

Not a flawless perspective of course, as the Windrunner will often have a pretty good point about something while the law may trip over itself. But every Order has glaring issues in their creeds, I would imagine. Lightweavers appear to tend towards bending the facts in order to emphasize a hidden side to things, which treads the thin line between good intentions and fraud. Edgedancers never put the bigger picture first. That's why there's ten of these groups, in the end.

[Vander]

Well, they do swear by "I will put the law above all else", or something along those lines.

I think the spirit of the Skybreaker philosophy is that the law is the most consistent and objective way to judge whether you have done the right thing.

Windrunner righteousness is completely open to individual interpretation and will probably differ from one Windrunner to the next in the grey areas. They can't all be doing the right thing if they give different responses in the same situation yes? The same is with how every country treats their laws, of course, but there's only so many kingdoms, and in ancient times hundreds of Windrunners. The law is more stable of a frame of reference, as to some extent it reflects the will of the people (or it's meant to anyway) with regards to what is wrong and should be condemned.

Not a flawless perspective of course, as the Windrunner will often have a pretty good point about something while the law may trip over itself. But every Order has glaring issues in their creeds, I would imagine. Lightweavers appear to tend towards bending the facts in order to emphasize a hidden side to things, which treads the thin line between good intentions and fraud. Edgedancers never put the bigger picture first. That's why there's ten of these groups, in the end.

Yes, they do swear that. Funny, such a simple thing offsetting whatever I was thinking. Rather disappointing, actually.

 

So, here's another question: If Windrunners and Skybreakers are two sides of the same coin, is that coin Justice?

[hypatia she/her]

It depends on the system of justice - normally for us is a system with a division of powers.

For justice you need a prosecutor and a defender, one more looking at the law - Skybreakers - the other looking also at the circumstances of a deed - Windrunners.

We are also used to a judge - I think about Bondsmiths - and even executioners - Dustbringer perhaps.

With the Radiant Knights as superhuman beings you need a common rule, but personally I can't accept one person acting as more as only a part of the legal system - like Nin at the moment.

[Argel he/him]

So, if he is given the power to make his own decisions again, I think he will become what may be the "True" Skybreaker- One who follows not the Law, but justice.

 

Wow!! That's a very insightful comment! 

 

Edit: I feel like I've made a fool of myself. You decide, though.

 

Sounds like you have been beaten down.        All I saw was an insightful post. Don't do the work of the bullies for them!! 

 

Well, they do swear by "I will put the law above all else", or something along those lines.

 

Do we know if that is the only oath they swear?

Edited April 15, 2016 by Argel

[Pathfinder]

I know this is splitting hairs, but it may also cause insight. The job of a judge is to interpret the law and apply it to whatever case is presented to him or her. So if you still envision Skybreakers like judges, then that would give them some more wiggle room regarding holding the law above all else. 

[Rasarr she/her]

I know this is splitting hairs, but it may also cause insight. The job of a judge is to interpret the law and apply it to whatever case is presented to him or her. So if you still envision Skybreakers like judges, then that would give them some more wiggle room regarding holding the law above all else. 

 

Perhaps the Third Oath for them is something along the lines of "I will follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter when it is just", much like Third Oath of Windrunners is something of an addendum to the Second.

[Vander]

Perhaps. I was wondering about the oaths after the Second, and what they mean, but as we have no information there, we'll have to RAFO.

 

Or, heck, ask Brandon.

[AerionBFII he/him]

Perhaps. I was wondering about the oaths after the Second, and what they mean, but as we have no information there, we'll have to RAFO.

 

Or, heck, ask Brandon.

Who will in turn tell us to RAFO XD

 

Im curious about their Oaths myself, i think the current Skybreakers are just a twisted version of what they used to be lead by a mad fanatic Herald. I do not think the old Skybreakers should be judged by the current activates of these posers.

[DSC01 he/him]

Perhaps the Third Oath for them is something along the lines of "I will follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter when it is just", much like Third Oath of Windrunners is something of an addendum to the Second.

 

It seems like this wouldn't really be the type of thing a Skybreaker would do. I interpret the little we know about them as pointing to very letter-of-the-law sort of people.

[Vander]

Who will in turn tell us to RAFO XD

 

Im curious about their Oaths myself, i think the current Skybreakers are just a twisted version of what they used to be lead by a mad fanatic Herald. I do not think the old Skybreakers should be judged by the current activates of these posers.

Pretty much. The sad reality, however, seems to be that since the only "Skybreaker" we've seen in Nin(?), and the only person he's called a "true" Skybreaker is Szeth (A focus of dislike for a lot of readers), people have, for the most part, decided that "Skybreakers suck!"

 

I've also had the theory that because Kal is one of the most loved characters, people took those couple interactions with Syl (Where she spoke of Skybreakers) to heart, not considering that an Honorspren likely has a very different viewpoint from a Highspren. I'll see about finding quotes, just to be sure.

 

Of course, it also seems that Brandon doesn't have too much invested in Szeth- He's pretty much a "study of a culture" for him, so we can't be sure what he'll do. It's one of the more worrying things for me. Thankfully, I have been proven wrong on many occasions.

 

Hehe... people gun' be mad.

 

Edit, responding to DSC01: Of course, what we know comes from one arguably insane surgebinder (Darkness, I'm talking about Darkness) and one who was completely subjugated and made powerless by his own Honor. Very good examples, so far.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Car'a'carn

[DSC01 he/him]

I'm also going off of what Syl said and the little excerpts from the in-universe Words of Radiance. Again, it's very little, but the legalistic type is pretty well established, and it does make sense for an Order bound to law to fit in with that type, so it seems to me that this is what the few clues we have point to. Really, Nalan and Szeth's behavior hasn't influenced my speculation on typical Skybreaker behavior very much at all. They're both crazy.

[Blightsong he/him]

Eh, fair enough.

As for the above, I feel like a lot of people believe that Skybreakers obsessively follow the Law and not what is right. This is understandable, as the only example (Speculatively) we have right now is Szeth, who put his nation`s law above what he believed to be right.

However, I think this was mainly because he was told repeatedly that he had done wrong; because everything he knew was stripped from him, and he was bound- by his own Honor- to serve out his punishment. In short- He was helpless, thinking himself that he had done wrong, and that what he got was what he deserved.

So, if he is given the power to make his own decisions again, I think he will become what may be the "True" Skybreaker- One who follows not the Law, but justice.

(Basically, if my rambling was as incoherent as I fear, I think Skybreakers don't follow the law specifically as much as they do justice. Kinda like what a judge is supposed to be, actually.)

From what I understand, the "cracking" of a soul requires significant emotional trauma. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what the following is based off of.

From what we know of his past, Szeth somehow discovered that the Radiants and the Voidbringers were returning. This caused a massive panic in his country, and culminated in him being called a liar (To use an understatement), enslaved, and thrust out of his home.

He comes from a culture where killing and wielding weapons is anathema, and only the lowest are made to kill. Thus, we can logically assume that, to him, this is a truly evil act. As such, being forced to do it - especially after all of the above- would definitely have caused enough emotional trauma to "break" him.

That said, I don't believe he has a Nahel Bond, as of yet. And, considering that he now has Nightblood, he might not need it. (Which is now making me wonder how a Bond with Nightblood would work, if at all.

Edit: I feel like I've made a fool of myself. You decide, though.

That's what I'm saying, he didn't have a chance to form a Nahel bond until recently because he hasn't really been a murderer until recently (besides Gavilar). In the books when Szeth is emotionally distraught it is almost always because of the killings he's done, not being kicked out of Shinovar.

[Vander]

What Syl said shouldn't really be taken very seriously, as shown by her opinions on Pattern, who is a perfectly good Spren, thank you very much. And, heck, even if we want to use Syl as an example, consider this:

 

 

'You'd let it go, then?'

'Storms, no,' Kaladin said. 'I'd find my own justice.'

'Oh...' Syl settled on his shoulder. They walked for a long while, eventually approaching the warcamp. 'You're not a Skybreaker, Kaladin,' Syl finally said. 'You're not supposed to be like this.'

 

"Finding your own justice" is quite a bit different from "Following the letter of the law." 

 

Further, the only stuff I could find about Skybreaker methods in Words of Radiance excerpts is this:

 There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate

 

All that shows is that there was some clash between Windrunner and Skybreaker methods, not necessarily that Skybreakers were bound by the law.

 

I'll concede that Nin and Szeth may not have influenced your speculation as much as I thought, though.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Car'a'carn

[Pathfinder]

What Syl said shouldn't really be taken very seriously, as shown by her opinions on Pattern, who is a perfectly good Spren, thank you very much. And, heck, even if we want to use Syl as an example, consider this:

 

 

 

"Finding your own justice" is quite a bit different from "Following the letter of the law." 

 

Further, the only stuff I could find about Skybreaker methods in Words of Radiance excerpts is this:

 

All that shows is that there was some clash between Windrunner and Skybreaker methods, not necessarily that Skybreakers were bound by the law.

 

I'll concede that Nin and Szeth may not have influenced your speculation as much as I thought, though.

Just my own opinion on what popped in my head/i felt when I read those quotes of yours. Syl I felt had a problem with Kaladin wishing to mete out punishment, when windrunners are supposed to protect. At least that is how I read it. 

 

edit: another way of saying it. Windrunner's protect those who were hurt from being hurt again. Skybreakers punish those that did the hurting so they never hurt anyone again. 

Edited April 18, 2016 by Pathfinder