A war between Scadrial (era 2) and Roshar

[Knight Oblivion]

 As for the strength of Scadrians, we have no info about Scadrial's gravity, so you can't really say anything about that. Also, Rosharans have a small amount of Stormlight in their systems, which grants strength. They are also much taller than Scadrians, which also helps counteract whatever weakness lower gravity causes.

 

Scadrial is an Earth analogue, there's even a WoB about it.¹ Therefore, it would not be that large of an assumption to make that it has comparable gravity to Earth which is higher than Roshar's has been stated to be.

 

However, if we assume that both Rosharans and Scadrians are both roughly similar with regards to general strength relative to their home planet's gravity, then the advantage will go to the Scadrians regardless of the battle ground planet since their muscles have developed to deal with higher overall gravity. This is a temporary advantage if the battles are on Roshar since extended periods in a low gravity environment would cause muscular atrophy, skeletal atrophy, and lower blood volume.² It would be a stretch beyond plausibility for the Scadrians to have this knowledge before such a war occurred though so it would likely happen in any prolonged conflict.

 

Anyways, where are you getting this information that all Rosharans are taller than Scadrians? It's my understanding that the Alethi of Roshar are generally taller than most other people on that planet and that Scadrians have a more variable height. I've never seen a definitive comparison through the books or WoB that Rosharans, on average, are taller than the average Scadrian. Also, is there a WoB about all Rosharans having a small amount of Stormlight in their bodies? I cannot recall ever reading it in Mr. Sanderson's novels (outside of Surgebinders and the Knights Radiant squires) nor have I seen any WoB about it.

 

1. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1088#52

2. http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast02aug_1/

Edited April 5, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[A Windspren he/him]

Yeah, there's a WoB out there about the Stormlight thing. I'll see if I can find it, but it was in reference to why people on Roshar rarely contract diseases. The WoB said that everyone  on Roshar had a small amount of Stormlight in their bodies, which made them slightly stronger than normal humans, along with the disease resistance.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I thought the OP had already cited slavery as the reason, which seems a compelling one, frankly?

[A Windspren he/him]

The people of Scadrial seem like pretty peaceful people, so it would be more likely that they would end slavery through diplomacy. Anyway, at the end of WoR there seems to be a revolution going on in Kholinar, so we don't know that slavery will still exist during Era 2.

[Voidus]

On the battlefield, how is the Leecher supposed to get behind the Shardbearer? What happens is:

 

The Coinshot tries to push on Blade, then goes flying backward and dies.

The Leecher either goes straight for the Shardbearer and dies from a Blade through the chest, or tries to sneak behind the Shardbearer and is killed by the Rosharan army, because Shardbearers fight at the front of an entire army, and they have a personal guard.

The Pewterarm tries to approach the Shardbearer and either dies from the Blade or gets punched 30 feet. He might survive, but a second punch or the Blade changes that when he tries to attack again.

 

We know that warform Parshendi are very dense because even the floods in the chasms during a Highstorm have a hard time moving them.

 

I don't understand the comment about swords being weightless on Earth, because that makes absolutely no sense.

 

Now, even with the current Roshar situation, we've seen that the Stormfather can control Highstorms. As soon as the Scadrian army all Worldhop in, a perpetual Highstorm centered over their location kills them all off.

Again if the Coinshot pushes on the blade then the only way they die is if the blade is pushed with full Duralumin force, which would indisputably get rid of the blade. And one Coinshot for one Shardbearer is more than in Scadrials favour.

Why would they immediately die? Yes most people struggle to avoid a Shardblade but that's because they try to actually fight it, a Leecher is just trying to touch them, they don't need heavy armour or weapons.

They sneak behind the Shardbearer and are faced with the personal guard, who they murder in three seconds because Scadrial has guns, and the Rosharan army, who are dying in the thousands because again, Scadrial has guns.

Speaking of which, there was never really the solution to just sitting back and shooting the Shardbearer, bullets have a lot of momentum, they would crack plate pretty easily. A fabrial that was specially designed might work but aside from not knowing they need them and so they'd take weeks after the initial invasion to actually be produced, they'd run out of Stormlight so quickly they'd be practically useless.

Again, you're assuming the pewterarm is a regular Rosharan soldier, thugs are way better at dodging than Shardbearers are used to.

It does make sense, you just didn't get the implication. My point was that Rosharans have as much difficulty swinging their swords as we do, which means their muscles are adjusted to the weight of the swords as they exist on Roshar. Those swords would be much lighter to us since we're used to earth gravity, therefore Rosharans have strength proportional to their gravity.

As mentioned, the Stormfather is both not a friend of Roshar and also not able to control Highstorms to that extent.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

They sneak behind the Shardbearer and are faced with the personal guard, who they murder in three seconds because Scadrial has guns

 

I agree with a lot of what you said but this did stick out to me: the sneaky Leecher is unloading a gun at the personal guards of the shardbearer while standing behind the shardbearer? That does NOT sound very sneaky to me! 

 

But seriously, if it was two massed armies facing off and even if the Rosharan army had terrain advantages that provided lots of cover I still do not think that Roshar stands much of a chance. Imo, current shardplate would be able to withstand no more than a few hits per piece from bullets - a single revolver could probably shatter two pieces of plate or just shatter a chest piece and then kill the shardbearer.

 

Sorry Roshar, I love you and your series but you just are not going to win this one. I blame the OP for picking Era2 Scadrial haha. 

[A Windspren he/him]

Without Duralumin/Nicrosil, they couldn't Push on the Blade at all.

 

The Leecher would have to get close enough to touch him, and a Shardbearer would easily be able to slice him in half. This is also assuming that Leeching works on Shardplate.

 

Metal repelling fabrials could be attached to the inside of Shardplate, and I can't imagine that they would need more Stormlight than Plate.

 

Roshar has scouts too, and if Scadrial can Worldhop that many troops over, then let's assume that Roshar knows that they are coming to invade. They would have plenty of time to prepare and gather armies, especially with Soulcasters.

 

The Pewterarms' dodging ability is a good point, as I assume that it is about equal to that of Kaladin's when using Stormlight.

 

We don't see people in SA commenting about the ability of swordsman, because the speed that they are swinging their swords is relative to what they normally see. We also don't see many fights where normal swords are used; we mostly see fights involving Shardblades and/or spears.

 

I think that the Stormfather was just really scared at that moment. Syl said that he just wanted to hide because he knew that he couldn't overpower Odium. He clearly couldn't think clearly (haha punny). He definitely has the ability to control Highstorms, because he sent one in the middle of the Weeping.

[A Windspren he/him]

I agree with a lot of what you said but this did stick out to me: the sneaky Leecher is unloading a gun at the personal guards of the shardbearer while standing behind the shardbearer? That does NOT sound very sneaky to me! 

 

But seriously, if it was two massed armies facing off and even if the Rosharan army had terrain advantages that provided lots of cover I still do not think that Roshar stands much of a chance. Imo, current shardplate would be able to withstand no more than a few hits per piece from bullets - a single revolver could probably shatter two pieces of plate or just shatter a chest piece and then kill the shardbearer.

 

Sorry Roshar, I love you and your series but you just are not going to win this one. I blame the OP for picking Era2 Scadrial haha. 

 

The U.S Army still lost a few battles to Native Americans, and they had guns too. With the right combination of fabrials to repel bullets, the Rosharan army could win. It wouldn't be an easy war, but they could do it, especially because they could take apart captured guns to see how they worked and make more.

[Knight Oblivion]

Yeah, there's a WoB out there about the Stormlight thing. I'll see if I can find it, but it was in reference to why people on Roshar rarely contract diseases. The WoB said that everyone  on Roshar had a small amount of Stormlight in their bodies, which made them slightly stronger than normal humans, along with the disease resistance.

I decided to do a search as well since you mentioned one exists and all I could find was a mention of it paraphrased from a Q&A on Tumblr.¹ Not to doubt the author, but it would be amazing to know what exactly Mr. Sanderson said on the matter. The paraphrased WoB says essentially says that the Rosharans are generally healthy due to their inherent investiture but it says nothing about the amount of strength they would gain from what you and I would assume is Stormlight. Due to the lack of glowing I'm inclined to think it's not a noticeable amount compared to baseline humanity in the same gravity environment.

 

However, the lower gravity could potentially cause more problems relating to disease. The Purelake already has a "plague of the sniffles" brought to the area by worldhoppers, Scadrians probably have many worse diseases that would cause a whole load of problems since, at least for zero-g, bacteria grows faster, stranger, and potentially more infectious/dangerous ways.^2,3,4 I'd imagine that a 30% decrease in gravity would have a similar, if lessened, effect.

 

1. http://stormfather.tumblr.com/post/108812172073

2.* http://phys.org/news/2013-11-bacteria-zero-gravity-nutrient-environment.html

3. http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/2013/bacteria-sent-into-space.html

4.* http://www.space.com/4388-space-bacteria-dangerous.html

*Note: I'm aware that these two references are not exactly high quality sources. There's only so much time in a day.

[Voidus]

I agree with a lot of what you said but this did stick out to me: the sneaky Leecher is unloading a gun at the personal guards of the shardbearer while standing behind the shardbearer? That does NOT sound very sneaky to me! 

 

But seriously, if it was two massed armies facing off and even if the Rosharan army had terrain advantages that provided lots of cover I still do not think that Roshar stands much of a chance. Imo, current shardplate would be able to withstand no more than a few hits per piece from bullets - a single revolver could probably shatter two pieces of plate or just shatter a chest piece and then kill the shardbearer.

 

Sorry Roshar, I love you and your series but you just are not going to win this one. I blame the OP for picking Era2 Scadrial haha. 

I meant the Scadrians in general rather than the Leecher but that is a more interesting visual to me so now I'm going to say that's what I meant and accept that the Leecher will die horribly.

 

 

The U.S Army still lost a few battles to Native Americans, and they had guns too. With the right combination of fabrials to repel bullets, the Rosharan army could win. It wouldn't be an easy war, but they could do it, especially because they could take apart captured guns to see how they worked and make more.

They didn't also have magic.

Fabrials that don't exist, would need a long time to be produced, would be too expensive to use for more than a few seconds and wouldn't be shared between all princedoms anyway. You can't just take a gun apart to see how it works, I'm particularly smart and a student of science far more advanced than Roshar. Give me a firearm and I could tell you what a few parts of it do, I could not make one from scratch.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

The U.S Army still lost a few battles to Native Americans, and they had guns too. With the right combination of fabrials to repel bullets, the Rosharan army could win. It wouldn't be an easy war, but they could do it, especially because they could take apart captured guns to see how they worked and make more.

 

Kevino36, I love your enthusiasm but I think it is time to acknowledge that people have addressed these ideas more than once.

 

Bullet Repelling Fabrials

a: They do not exist

b: If the fabrial tech does exist to make them they would only be able to repel a certain number of bullets. In small engagements they might be useful but in pitched battles there would be wayyyyyy too many bullets flying. The gemstones would run out of charge really fast.

 

Reverse-Engineering Guns

a: Guns require fairly precise engineering if you want to mass produce them (soulcasters might be able to generate enough but, if you think about it, the Alethi use regular blacksmiths for swords and stuff right? soulcasting is an intense process that costs precious stormlight and also affects the soulcasters in some way - mass producing tens of thousands of guns would have some serious consequences imo)

b: Even if you have gun you still need bullets and see (a) about the effect this would have on soulcasters. Furthermore, you need millions upon millions of bullets to equip tens of thousands of infantry. Wow. Lots of bullets eh?

c: Gunpowder. Thousands of tons of gunpowder. A substance Rosharans have no understanding of and will not have infrastructure in place to manufacture

d: Training. Guns might seem to be a "point and shoot" type of weapon but, in reality, they require a serious amount of training to use effectively. On top of that you have to know how to maintain your weapon and Generals need to know how to employ infantry that use guns as opposed to spears. None of this would be easy or quick.

 

edit: Why in the world does b + ) equal ? Ugh. Emojis I love you but not when you interfere with my list making!

Edited April 5, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[A Windspren he/him]

Kevino36, I love your enthusiasm but I think it is time to acknowledge that people have addressed these ideas more than once.

 

Bullet Repelling Fabrials

a: They do not exist

b: If the fabrial tech does exist to make them they would only be able to repel a certain number of bullets. In small engagements they might be useful but in pitched battles there would be wayyyyyy too many bullets flying. The gemstones would run out of charge really fast.

 

Reverse-Engineering Guns

a: Guns require fairly precise engineering if you want to mass produce them (soulcasters might be able to generate enough but, if you think about it, the Alethi use regular blacksmiths for swords and stuff right? soulcasting is an intense process that costs precious stormlight and also affects the soulcasters in some way - mass producing tens of thousands of guns would have some serious consequences imo)

b: Even if you have gun you still need bullets and see (a) about the effect this would have on soulcasters. Furthermore, you need millions upon millions of bullets to equip tens of thousands of infantry. Wow. Lots of bullets eh?

c: Gunpowder. Thousands of tons of gunpowder. A substance Rosharans have no understanding of and will not have infrastructure in place to manufacture

d: Training. Guns might seem to be a "point and shoot" type of weapon but, in reality, they require a serious amount of training to use effectively. On top of that you have to know how to maintain your weapon and Generals need to know how to employ infantry that use guns as opposed to spears. None of this would be easy or quick.

 

edit: Why in the world does b + ) equal ? Ugh. Emojis I love you but not when you interfere with my list making!

 

Sometimes weapons are produced by carving them out of wood and then Soulcasting them (as we see in Rysn's interlude), but I admit that that's a long way from a gun.

 

Soulcasters already make food for 100k people on a daily basis.

 

That is a good point, and the Scadrian's guns would get absolutely wrecked by Highstorms.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Won battles. Not wars, Kevino.

[A Windspren he/him]

Won battles. Not wars, Kevino.

 

Having more soldiers helped a lot. I doubt that the Scadrians have an army of 100k, which was relatively small for the Alethi and doesn't count the troops back in Alethkar, not to mention that Jah Keved would probably help defeat an extremely powerful enemy that suddenly appears out of nowhere.

 

Since Scadrial has the ability to worldhop, what prevents a team of Shardbearers and Radiants from taking Scadrial's generals and leaders hostage? Metalborn could probably do the same thing to Roshar's leaders, but there are 10 Highprinces that would probably take command if Elhokar was killed/captured, and they're all trained Shardbearers anyway.

[Voidus]

Having more soldiers helped a lot. I doubt that the Scadrians have an army of 100k, which was relatively small for the Alethi and doesn't count the troops back in Alethkar, not to mention that Jah Keved would probably help defeat an extremely powerful enemy that suddenly appears out of nowhere.

 

Since Scadrial has the ability to worldhop, what prevents a team of Shardbearers and Radiants from taking Scadrial's generals and leaders hostage? Metalborn could probably do the same thing to Roshar's leaders, but there are 10 Highprinces that would probably take command if Elhokar was killed/captured, and they're all trained Shardbearers anyway.

The fact that they lack any sort of abilities involving stealth? Or the ability to blend in? And that Scadrian leaders would be guarded by people who (again) have guns. Also, sending your radiants and Shardbearers is a particularly terrible idea because there's no Stormlight on Scadrial, so they'd lose their Shards and the Radiants would all be pretty worthless, they'd get captured instead and then they'd have lost some of their best troops.

[A Windspren he/him]

The fact that they lack any sort of abilities involving stealth? Or the ability to blend in? And that Scadrian leaders would be guarded by people who (again) have guns. Also, sending your radiants and Shardbearers is a particularly terrible idea because there's no Stormlight on Scadrial, so they'd lose their Shards and the Radiants would all be pretty worthless, they'd get captured instead and then they'd have lost some of their best troops.

 

They wouldn't need Highstorms for Stormlight, they could just bring bags of spheres. Although we don't know where Sazed's Shardpool is, so they might have to walk/fly a while.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Having more soldiers helped a lot. I doubt that the Scadrians have an army of 100k, which was relatively small for the Alethi and doesn't count the troops back in Alethkar, not to mention that Jah Keved would probably help defeat an extremely powerful enemy that suddenly appears out of nowhere.

 

 

This is taken from Chapter 4 of Alloy of Law:

“The population of our octant is around six hundred thousand,” [Marasi] explained. “By the same ratio Lord Ladrian described, we should have roughly twelve hundred constables. But we don’t. It’s somewhere closer to six hundred, last I looked over the numbers. So, Lord Ladrian, your ‘savage’ wildlands actually had double the number of lawmen watching over it as we have here in the city.”

 

One octant of the city has 600,000 people. There are eight octants. There are, literally, four million+ people living in Elendel city. Even if it was merely Elendel city vs. Alethkar then the city of Elendel could field half a million soldiers with a draft. Metalborn are, iirc, 16% of the population so the army, if it did not focus on metalborn and merely took what they got with a draft, would have ~80,000 Metalborn. If you include the entire Basin in the draft then, well, speculatively it would be possible to field a Scadrian army of one million soldiers with, roughly, 160,000 metalborn. Granted, not all of the metalborn will be useful to the war effort but that would still be tens of thousands of pewterarms, coinshots, soothers/rioters etc.

[Voidus]

They wouldn't need Highstorms for Stormlight, they could just bring bags of spheres. Although we don't know where Sazed's Shardpool is, so they might have to walk/fly a while.

Which they will drain completely since Rosharan abilities consume a lot. Even if they don't, they'll probably go dun by the time anyone other than Kaladin could actually get to any leaders.

[A Windspren he/him]

Scadrial would have to Worldhop them all , and they would emerge at the Horneater Peaks. There's not much room there, and it's an excellent chokepoint. Rosharan archers could just sit at the edge of the Emerald Pools and pick the Scadrians off one by one, and even if they didn't do that, the Scadrians would be stuck at the top of a mountain. Once they leave the bubble of heat, they would likely freeze. Also, they would have no knowledge about the surrounding terrain. Any scouts they would send would likely not make it back to base, as they would get lost. It would be like being at the top of K2 and not knowing anything about trails, passes or ways to get down, while your soldiers are all freezing to death.

[A Windspren he/him]

Which they will drain completely since Rosharan abilities consume a lot. Even if they don't, they'll probably go dun by the time anyone other than Kaladin could actually get to any leaders.

 

Lol, I just had a really vivid image in my head of Kaladin tying several Shardbearers and Shallan together with rope and then Lashing them towards Elendel. It probably wouldn't work, but it would be hilarious to see the expressions of watchmen as they saw that... thing flying towards them.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Scadrial would have to Worldhop them all , and they would emerge at the Horneater Peaks. There's not much room there, and it's an excellent chokepoint. Rosharan archers could just sit at the edge of the Emerald Pools and pick the Scadrians off one by one, and even if they didn't do that, the Scadrians would be stuck at the top of a mountain. Once they leave the bubble of heat, they would likely freeze. Also, they would have no knowledge about the surrounding terrain. Any scouts they would send would likely not make it back to base, as they would get lost. It would be like being at the top of K2 and not knowing anything about trails, passes or ways to get down, while your soldiers are all freezing to death.

 

Kevino36, I suggest you just go back in this conversation and re-read the parts where people already addressed this specific objection along with your other objections. I feel as if you keep cycling through the same objections every couple of pages.

[A Windspren he/him]

Kevino36, I suggest you just go back in this conversation and re-read the parts where people already addressed this specific objection along with your other objections. I feel as if you keep cycling through the same objections every couple of pages.

I don't think that anyone answered this objection. They just gave a vague answer involving Medallions, which Elendel currently has no knowledge of.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

So we are saying that ROSHAR would try and use that approach, completely ignoring that Scadrial have Kandra? Really?

 

Kandra and a variety of other methods of assassination...

 

Vs people who can Worldhop but for all we know, nowhere nearly as easily as you are implying

 

 

Scadrial would have to Worldhop them all , and they would emerge at the Horneater Peaks. There's not much room there, and it's an excellent chokepoint. Rosharan archers could just sit at the edge of the Emerald Pools and pick the Scadrians off one by one, and even if they didn't do that, the Scadrians would be stuck at the top of a mountain. Once they leave the bubble of heat, they would likely freeze. Also, they would have no knowledge about the surrounding terrain. Any scouts they would send would likely not make it back to base, as they would get lost. It would be like being at the top of K2 and not knowing anything about trails, passes or ways to get down, while your soldiers are all freezing to death.

 

 

You know there is by definition another Shardpool in Roshar somewhere, right?

 

 

EDIT: KANDRA!

Edited April 6, 2016 by IndigoAjah

[A Windspren he/him]

So we are saying that ROSHAR would try and use that approach, completely ignoring that Scadrial have Kandra? Really?

 

Kandra and a variety of other methods of assassination...

 

Vs people who can Worldhop but for all we know, nowhere nearly as easily as you are implying

 

 

 

 

You know there is by definition another Shardpool in Roshar somewhere, right?

 

Hey, I'm not pointing out what Scadrial could do, I'm on Roshar's side!

 

Yeah, and because Worldhopping is so difficult, how does Scadrial plan to transport a million people to Roshar and fit them on the top of a mountain? Mainly the second question, because Worldhopping ability is assumed to make this situation feasible.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Hey, I'm not pointing out what Scadrial could do, I'm on Roshar's side!

 

Yeah, and because Worldhopping is so difficult, how does Scadrial plan to transport a million people to Roshar and fit them on the top of a mountain? Mainly the second question, because Worldhopping ability is assumed to make this situation feasible.

I suspect they would probably pick the other one, to be honest, especially if it were the Purelake as some suspect