What if Lirin is a Knight Radiant???

[desi_sparta]

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster. So, I've been rereading WoR and tWoK for the nth time and just realized something. Almost all the orders of knight radiants are concentrated on a select few families. We have the Kholin family where Dalinar is a bond smith, Renarin is truth watcher, Adolin's shard blade is expected to come back to life, Navani is a pioneer of the fabrial magic system, Elhokar is being spied on by the rude highsprens, and Jasnah is an Elsecaller. Then we have the Davar family where Shallan is lightweaver, the eldest brother was a skybreaker, and the father was a ghostblood. We are yet to see the other brothers manifest any powers but I'm sure the sprens are into some serious nepotism muck. Then we have Kaladin who is a windrunner, and his father Lirin who always heals people. This seems like the sort of thing Ym used to do before he found himself at the pointy end of the long arm of justice. Which makes me wonder if his spren would have settled for Lirin as the new Knight Radiant. The only possible argument against this theory is Lift. But the again, she did something that Dalinar did too and I'm thinking Nightmother pulls some serious weight in the monthly highsprens' board of meeting.

Any thoughts????

PS: sorry for bad engrish, sleepy and small typy screen.

[Master Elodin]

Hey guys, long time lurker, first time poster. So, I've been rereading WoR and tWoK for the nth time and just realized something. Almost all the orders of knight radiants are concentrated on a select few families. We have the Kholin family where Dalinar is a bond smith, Renarin is truth watcher, Adolin's shard blade is expected to come back to life, Navani is a pioneer of the fabrial magic system, Elhokar is being spied on by the rude highsprens, and Jasnah is an Elsecaller. Then we have the Davar family where Shallan is lightweaver, the eldest brother was a skybreaker, and the father was a ghostblood. We are yet to see the other brothers manifest any powers but I'm sure the sprens are into some serious nepotism muck. Then we have Kaladin who is a windrunner, and his father Lirin who always heals people. This seems like the sort of thing Ym used to do before he found himself at the pointy end of the long arm of justice. Which makes me wonder if his spren would have settled for Lirin as the new Knight Radiant. The only possible argument against this theory is Lift. But the again, she did something that Dalinar did too and I'm thinking Nightmother pulls some serious weight in the monthly highsprens' board of meeting.

Any thoughts????

PS: sorry for bad engrish, sleepy and small typy screen.

Shallans brother was a skybreaker?

[Ruro272]

Shallans brother was a skybreaker?

Suspected of searching them out at least. I can't remember the exact passages and am not at home to look it up, but the wiki mentions this and provides the appropriate chapters as citations: http://stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Helaran_Davar

[Zathoth]

I think it meant Skybreaker as "Part of Nalans club" and not Skybreaker as a radiant.

 

But I have only read the books once each, I dont remember.

[maxal]

Actually, Brandon explained why so many Radiants turned out within the Kholin family... It isn't they are a family or anything, it has to do with them being central to the major events currently occurring in the world. The sprens, it seems, prefer to bond individuals who are close to the main action as opposed to some isolate folk. As a result, there is an abnormal of sprens gravitating around the Kholins which is why so many of them were chosen: if not for their ideal position within the social hierarchy, they would have likely been skipped in favor of better connected people.

 

Kaladin is an exception. Syl disobeyed and wasn't send on a mission. She seems to have selected Kaladin purely based on a "love at first sight approach". It was a gamble as her soldier could have remained isolated from the major live changing events and not be able to take part in them.

 

I thus think highly unlikely Lirin or Hesina were chosen as Radiants. They are too remote. What could would Lirin the Radiant do? Surely he can do plenty for the resident of Heartstone, but in the greater scope of things, it is insignificant. He isn't in a position to influence the world, but Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah are and so is Elhokar which is likely why sprens investigated him: it would have NEVER happen if he weren't the king.... but I personally think they drop him as he is unsuitable.

 

I would also personally dislike it if every single individual connected to the Radiants turned out being... Radiants as well. 

[Argel]

Do you have a link to that WoB? Because there are some obvious exceptions: Shallan was chose at a very young age. And it seems so was Kaladin (To Szeth: “No. The wind is mine. The sky is mine. They have been mine since childhood. You are the trespasser here. Not me.”). And what of Ym? And Lift?

 

I wonder if it's more about the person's local sphere of influence? Or there are different sets of criteria at work. Or maybe desperation as the cataclysmic events get closer and closer?

Edited March 27, 2016 by Argel

[maxal]

Questioner: Why are there so many Kholins that are Radiants?

Brandon: [...] So the Kholin family is in Alethkar, which hereditary was one of the homes of the Knights Radiant.  It’s still kind of in the forefront of the, how shall we say, collective unconscious and things like this.  Plus there’s--

Questioner: And then they are on the forefront of that.

Brandon: Yes.  I mean... yeah.  The--  And so the spren, some of them are naturally looking for where a lot of Radiants used to be.  So it’s just a higher concentration of spren around the area, if that makes sense?

 

Kaladin was chosen by Syl while he was a squad leader within Amaram's army, so he was in his late teen, nowhere near as young as Shallan. I am aware of this claim Kaladin made, but I saw it as empty words and false boosting. Syl didn't bond Kaladin while he was a child : she clearly states when she found him at a later time.

 

Lift was bonded by an order of the Nightwatcher as for Ym, the WoB doesn't state sprens aren't bonding outside the forefront of the upcoming conflict, but many of them are privileging those in front of more distant individuals such as Ym.

 

I interpret this as there are many criteria at work when it comes to choosing a proto-knight but being in the vicinity of others and being in a central location, around the most significant action, increases your chances. Sprens are looking for people but it is a big world: they thus concentrate themselves on certain areas. It however doesn't prevent some sprens to go elsewhere. It isn't a firm rule, but it explains why the Kholin family is more set in terms of Radiants and it also explains why Lirin or other individuals close to known Radiants likely aren't in the choosing mire.

 

These are my two cents anyway.

[Argel]

Thanks for the quote!!

 

Regarding Kaladin, I do not think it was false bravado. We already saw that when he "let go" in the shard dual with Adolin how well he did, and then again with Szeth at the end. To me, there was a definite sense that he was more in tune with the wind than most and that that was not something new. Probably part of the reason he beat the shard bearer in TWoK. It's also interesting that his father was a doctor -- that could be where some of that desire to protect came from. For me, I had this sense that a bunch of things clicked for Kaladin.

 

Brandon's answer does make me wonder if we will see more KRs from some of the others highprinces and their entourages.

[desi_sparta]

 

I thus think highly unlikely Lirin or Hesina were chosen as Radiants. They are too remote. What could would Lirin the Radiant do? Surely he can do plenty for the resident of Heartstone, but in the greater scope of things, it is insignificant. He isn't in a position to influence the world, but Dalinar, Renarin, Jasnah are and so is Elhokar which is likely why sprens investigated him: it would have NEVER happen if he weren't the king.... but I personally think they drop him as he is unsuitable.

 

I would also personally dislike it if every single individual connected to the Radiants turned out being... Radiants as well.

What part was Ym playing?Lift's spren said something along the lines of her preference being a horticulture grandma but the council pushed it towards Lift. Neither of which seems to be playing any important role in world events, only theit local sphere of influence.

I don't thing the sprens have discarded Elhokar completely. His second last scene with Kaladin seems to imply that they are still perving out on him.

Another question. Sly said that if Kaladin dies,she goes stupid again. She also said that she has helped men kill before. Both of these sentences taken together imply that if a bonded spren's human host dies, the process of looking for a new human host can start again. What if the spren that bonded Ym has done the same thing. But this time, he is advised by the spren council to look for Kaladin's immediate relatives, those that inspired him to become worthy of a Nahel bond. Lastly, in the day of recreance we see around 2-3 hundred shard blades. Which means that apart from bond smiths (whose members numbered 3), other orders had multiple Knights. Doesn't tha lend credence to the fact that there can be more than one order of healers (Ym's order, I forgot the exact name) at the same time?

[maxal]

What part was Ym playing?Lift's spren said something along the lines of her preference being a horticulture grandma but the council pushed it towards Lift. Neither of which seems to be playing any important role in world events, only theit local sphere of influence.

I don't thing the sprens have discarded Elhokar completely. His second last scene with Kaladin seems to imply that they are still perving out on him.

Another question. Sly said that if Kaladin dies,she goes stupid again. She also said that she has helped men kill before. Both of these sentences taken together imply that if a bonded spren's human host dies, the process of looking for a new human host can start again. What if the spren that bonded Ym has done the same thing. But this time, he is advised by the spren council to look for Kaladin's immediate relatives, those that inspired him to become worthy of a Nahel bond. Lastly, in the day of recreance we see around 2-3 hundred shard blades. Which means that apart from bond smiths (whose members numbered 3), other orders had multiple Knights. Doesn't tha lend credence to the fact that there can be more than one order of healers (Ym's order, I forgot the exact name) at the same time?

 

First of, Syl disobeyed. She wasn't bonding Kaladin out of a team effort, she went, on her own, to bond him. I thus doubt other sprens were instructed to bond people within his viscinity especially considering the fact Syl didn't come to Kaladin until he was far-away from Heartstone. The argument doesn't hold.

 

As for Ym, the WoB says many sprens would choose individuals based on location, but not all would. Ym's spren clearly was outside the mold: it happens but most chose otherwise.

 

As for Elhokar, please note all sprens didn't decide to bond an individual until this person proved it could follow a pre-determined guideline despite hardships. Elhokar hasn't, so far, proved he could do just this: being broken is NOT enough. You need to enforce your strengths, you need to prove brokeness isn't enough to prevent you from being protective, wise or creative. You have to be more than just "a poor person who has a few difficulties". Elhokar hasn't done any of those things. Sprens may have investigate him due to his prime position, but I sincerely think they moved out. Bonding Elhokar doesn't make sense, none at all. Sprens haven't bond people unless they proved they could be more. Elhokar hasn't make this demonstration yet.

[Argel]

So why Renarin? And if it's location, then why aren't there KRs from some of the other factions?

[Pathfinder]

So why Renarin? And if it's location, then why aren't there KRs from some of the other factions?

Who is to say there aren't? Maybe we just haven't seen them yet. 

[Argel]

Or maybe there are too involved in the political games, backstabbing, etc.?

[maxal]

So why Renarin? And if it's location, then why aren't there KRs from some of the other factions?

 

Why Renarin? Because he is close to the main action, he has perhaps the capacity of being useful to his prime connections and one spren found him suitable. Would he have been chosen had he not been a Kholin? Probably not, but then again the odds of being chosen are extremely low, even providing you are suitable.

 

As for others, it could be we haven't met them yet or perhaps there currently is just nobody more important than the Kholin family.

[Eki]

I don't think Lirin IS a Radiant, but it wouldn't surprise me if he becomes one (of whatever order Ym was) later. I doubt Kaladin's parents (or anyone else) can stay in their village long term, with the Everstorm going around the planet.

[Vander]

Thanks for the quote!!

 

Regarding Kaladin, I do not think it was false bravado. We already saw that when he "let go" in the shard dual with Adolin how well he did, and then again with Szeth at the end. To me, there was a definite sense that he was more in tune with the wind than most and that that was not something new. Probably part of the reason he beat the shard bearer in TWoK. It's also interesting that his father was a doctor -- that could be where some of that desire to protect came from. For me, I had this sense that a bunch of things clicked for Kaladin.

 

Brandon's answer does make me wonder if we will see more KRs from some of the others highprinces and their entourages.

I hate to do this, but I can't stop, either...

 

In Kal's duel with Szeth, the deciding factor was that Szeth was on the edge of insanity, and in the end gave up when he realized that all his murders could not be justified in any way, and that, had he given up the Oathstone's "Honor-bond", many lives could have been saved. 

 

Another factor was that the Kal's blade was much more efficient with Stormlight, which put Szeth at a greater disadvantage. 

 

Szeth is too experienced with his Blade to lose so simply to Kaladin. (Who, by no means, is a bad fighter- he's just not nearly as experienced.)

 

Thinking back on this, I see that it was rather pointless. Hate, if you want.

[Argel]

Except this is the first time we see Kaladin the Windrunner KR. Not "in training", "almsost ready" Kaladin. This is the Kaladin that finally undertands what he wants -- understands who he is. Brandon goes out of his way imo to play this up, like how light bursts from Kal when he says the oath to become a Windrunner (against Moash and Graves). And how the honor blade is somehow dimmer than Syl in shard blade form, etc. I think Kaladin would have won even if Szeth had not given up. Given that this was a major poitn in Kaladin's arc, the end of the book, the actual reforming of the KRs, etc. and you really want to argue Kaladin would have lost? And considering Szeths powers came from the honor blade, who cares if Kaladin has an advantage for being a KR!? If you try and account for all advatnages, then I think we're down to whether Szeth has more training with the sword or Kaladin with the spear.

[baby]

So, basically a proto Radiant displaying the traits of his order in the forefront of the action has a higher chance of being chosen by the spren than an identical proto Radiant in, say, Azir. I can get that. 

[Vander]

Except this is the first time we see Kaladin the Windrunner KR. Not "in training", "almsost ready" Kaladin. This is the Kaladin that finally undertands what he wants -- understands who he is. Brandon goes out of his way imo to play this up, like how light bursts from Kal when he says the oath to become a Windrunner (against Moash and Graves). And how the honor blade is somehow dimmer than Syl in shard blade form, etc. I think Kaladin would have won even if Szeth had not given up. Given that this was a major poitn in Kaladin's arc, the end of the book, the actual reforming of the KRs, etc. and you really want to argue Kaladin would have lost? And considering Szeths powers came from the honor blade, who cares if Kaladin has an advantage for being a KR!? If you try and account for all advatnages, then I think we're down to whether Szeth has more training with the sword or Kaladin with the spear.

I'm pretty sure the fact that Szeth is almost insane is also played up. Do you really think a fighter in that state would be at his best? Especially against a soldier? I think Szeth giving up was a smaller part of it.

 

... Are you arguing with plot armor? "A major point in Kaladin's plot" is really not an argument for which fighter is better at their peak condition. Well, unless we're talking about ta'veren, which I HAVE predicted Kaladin will become from the way things are going. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "Who cares about Kal's advantage for being a KR?!" The Honorblade may do something more for Heralds or people who know how to use them properly (MAYBE! Or, you know, they may be Proto-blades which are imperfect, and have no "special powers" over regular Shardblades.) but for Szeth it acted as a normal Windrunner blade with hellishly higher Stormlight cost. Since Stormlight fuels his power, I think it DOES matter.

 

Also, Szeth hadn't ever touched a weapon before the age of 27. So his experience with a sword is near the same. (Less, if you consider that he's not fighting nearly as much as Kal, who's a soldier.)

 

At the end of the day, Szeth is a better fighter at his peak, no matter Kal's fancy oaths. The two were fairly well-matched in their sky-fight, even though Szeth was far from good fighting condition.

[Pathfinder]

Also, Szeth hadn't ever touched a weapon before the age of 27. So his experience with a sword is near the same. (Less, if you consider that he's not fighting nearly as much as Kal, who's a soldier.)

Just curious, how do you know this? I do not remember that being mentioned in the book or WoB. Is there more recent information that I have not heard yet?

[Eki]

Just curious, how do you know this? I do not remember that being mentioned in the book or WoB. Is there more recent information that I have not heard yet?

I guess this is mostly based on the Shin's general resentment of weapons, and strict rules regarding them. The honorblades seem to be somewhat excluded from this (at least the ones that grant Regrowth), but even then they were probably not used for fighting.

So likely, Szeth never fought with a weapon until he was declared Truthless.

Edit: From the wiki:

What is known, however, is that any person who picks up a weapon is required to take an oathstone and live the rest of their life as a warrior.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Eki

[Pathfinder]

I guess this is mostly based on the Shin's general resentment of weapons, and strict rules regarding them. The honorblades seem to be somewhat excluded from this (at least the ones that grant Regrowth), but even then they were probably not used for fighting.

So likely, Szeth never fought with a weapon until he was declared Truthless.

Edit: From the wiki:

Yeah, but all of that is pure conjecture. None of that is confirmed or even hinted. Szeth could have picked up a weapon when he was 5, or a month before he got banished. The only slight indicator is that he was trained in the honorblades use, which could have been his entire life, or a really rigorous year. So we cannot truly comment on what Szeth's level of fighting experience is prior to his appearance in assassinating Galivar. We simply don't know yet. 

Edited March 31, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Eki]

Yeah, but all of that is pure conjecture. None of that is confirmed or even hinted. Szeth could have picked up a weapon when he was 5, or a month before he got banished. The only slight indicator is that he was trained in the honorblades use, which could have been his entire life, or a really rigorous year. So we cannot truly comment on what Szeth's level of fighting experience is prior to his appearance in assassinating Galivar. We simply don't know yet.

True.

I think he was well trained in unarmed combat, and maybe in Surgebinding as well (though probably not for combat specifically), but yeah, those are just guesses for now.

[DreamEternal]

I'd say Kaladin is a better fighter without investiture, or at least without lashings, since Kaladin with stormlight does much more impressive feats with his weapon than Szeth with stormlight.

HOWEVER, by that same logic Szeth is much, much more proficient than Kaladin with lashings, and would have won if the fight was taking place somewhere other than open air.

[Pathfinder]

I'd say Kaladin is a better fighter without investiture, or at least without lashings, since Kaladin with stormlight does much more impressive feats with his weapon than Szeth with stormlight.

HOWEVER, by that same logic Szeth is much, much more proficient than Kaladin with lashings, and would have won if the fight was taking place somewhere other than open air.

But would Szeth be able to lash Kaladin while Kal is full of stormlight as well?