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Question on Allomantic Pewter


tobar14

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Windrunner's News post "Around the Cosmere: Theories and Coppermind" has a lot of tantalizing information in it, but one tidbit has me confused...

 

"o In Brandon’s mind, burning pewter approximately doubles your strength, while flaring triples it. He has not canonized how much either of these things enhances reflexes or healing."

 

I seem to recall that when Ham was training Vin in burning pewter, he explained things a bit differently. I'm at work so I don't have any books with me, but I thought that he explained that a person that is super buff/muscular will not be that much stronger than someone like Vin, a malnourished small girl who isn't strong at all without pewter.

 

I specifically remember the part when they were talking about why being less muscular is good because burning pewter gives you a certain amount of strength.  So if a scrawny thug and a really muscular thug were in a jumping contest, the scrawny one would win because he/she is lighter, and her/his Pewter strength can get he/she higher off the ground than someone else who is burning pewter and has a lot of muscle. 

 

Basically, if burning pewter only doubles your strength, I would find it to be pretty worthless if I was a scrawny person. If you can barely manager to wield a regular sword (I'm assuming regular Vin couldn't), then burning pewter would certainly not allow you to easily wield a koloss sword as if it was a wooden stick (Vin burning pewter).

 

Thoughts?

Am I completely crazy?

If I doubled my strength, my friend Logan could still kick the rust out of me...

Edited by tobar14
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The pewter give you some amount of Allomantic power X, this X power depends only by your burning rate not your own strenght.

This extra X power is added to your own strenght... Therefore a strong guy gains less than a weak one when they burn pewter (of course I talk about percentage gain not absolute one that is constant).

 

I suppose BS wanted to say that in an average Allomancer the "Extra Strength" is quite  on the same level of an Average Human Strength

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The pewter give you some amount of Allomantic power X, this X power depends only by your burning rate not your own strenght.

This extra X power is added to your own strenght... Therefore a strong guy gains less than a weak one when they burn pewter (of course I talk about percentage gain not absolute one that is constant).

 

Right, that's how I understood it to work. Which is why I am confused that BS made that statement. I'm guessing that there was some form of miscommunication.

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Right, that's how I understood it to work. Which is why I am confused that BS made that statement. I'm guessing that there was some form of miscommunication.

I'm guessing its just an approximation, so a burn gives you an amount of strength roughly equal to a normal humans strength so for most people this doubles their strength. For Vin it's more like 3x.

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Okay, so assuming this as canon, all Pewterarms have the same upper bound of strength. If we go by WoB that that upper bound is about two times average human strength, then... well, not much makes sense. Cracking skulls with bare hands or easily swinging koloss sword needs much more than 2x average.

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Okay, so assuming this as canon, all Pewterarms have the same upper bound of strength. If we go by WoB that that upper bound is about two times average human strength, then... well, not much makes sense. Cracking skulls with bare hands or easily swinging koloss sword needs much more than 2x average.

Cracking a skull doesn't and shattering it only happened when Vin Durala-burned pewter. Koloss swords are probably within bounds to be 2-3 times human strength.

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I'm guessing its just an approximation, so a burn gives you an amount of strength roughly equal to a normal humans strength so for most people this doubles their strength. For Vin it's more like 3x.

 
Right, but that's not the point I am trying to make. I understand why someone who is small and not muscular would benefit greatly if the strength boost of burning Pewter is like this: Normal Everyday Strength + Strength from Pewter = X.  In this equation Strength from Pewter is a constant.  If Strength from Pewter is a huge number, then it basically makes Normal Everyday Strength not a factor. For example:

 

Let's say I have a Normal Everyday Strength of 10, and Strength from Pewter equals 100. So, total strength is 110.

Let's say my friend Logan has a Normal Everyday Strength of 20, and gets the same 100 from Pewter. So total strength is 120.

 

In that scenario it makes perfect sense as to why someone who is smaller and less muscular benefits more from Pewter. (which is what Ham explained to Vin, or something like that). Logan, who is much stronger than me & also weighs much more without Pewter, will not be able to jump as high as me or be able to move as quick with Pewter.

 

From that quote/WoB, it states that the equation is actually: Normal Everday Strength + Burning Pewter = 2 * Normal Everyday Strength

 

 

That would mean I would have a total strength of 20

and Logan would have a total Strength of 40.  Meaning the person who was stronger before gets a greater benefit. Which is not what was explained in the books.

 

Which is why I am confused.

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Cracking a skull doesn't and shattering it only happened when Vin Durala-burned pewter. Koloss swords are probably within bounds to be 2-3 times human strength.

pssh, have you ever tried to wield a sword?? They are pretty heavy, and I'm not weak by any means. Also you have to take physics into account with a Koloss sword. If a Koloss sword is twice as long and twice as heavy as a regular sword, it would take much more than 2x effort to move it as easily as a regular sword.  I'm not a physicist, but I'm fairly certain that something to do with levers and the fulcrum point, and the length of the sword....

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Cracking a skull doesn't and shattering it only happened when Vin Durala-burned pewter. Koloss swords are probably within bounds to be 2-3 times human strength.

Without pewter, Vin would have had problems with wielding even regular sword. Koloss swords are not only longer (about two-three times), but also broader and thicker. That's a lot of metal and a lot of weight.

Edited by Oversleep
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I'm just going out on limb on this, but what if the equation is closer to a exponential growth equation{y = a ( b )x}. Like your Normal Strength is the a variable, then b is a certain number, say 2 for example. If x equals the amount of pewter being burnt(as in the strength of the burn) then it would increase exponentially for each person. Say 3 is the a mount of pewter being burned at the highest flare, and say zero is no burn at all. I feel like it makes sense, but I'm probably wrong. What do you guys think?

Edited by Stonewarden
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This definitely needs some leniency.  He outright said "this isn't canon".  You can't say "his equation claims someone with strength 20 becomes strength 40" and throw up your hands in despair, because we haven't been given a definitive formula.

 

Knowing what we know from Vin/Ham dueling, it's a reasonable assumption that Pewter gives you, very very roughly, an amount of additional strength equal to an average person.  Ham with a 14 Strength gets bumped up to 24.  Vin with a 9 gets bumped up to a 19.

 

But this must be clearly marked as an assumption because, again, not canon. 

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Remember that Vin was exceptional powerful in all metals due to her taking in of the mists as a child, and she also reached savanthoodin pewter, a feat few others had ever accomplished. She'd probably receive somewhere nearer to X5 at least, likely more when flaring and an incredible amount with duralumin

ETA: that X5 would be the addition of normal strength, meaning Vin's strength + 5x would be her total strength if x = regular human strength. Keep in mind that she was more powerful than a Koloss, who had roughly 5 times the strength of an average human due to the spikes that granted them strength aspects of 4 people plus the host's own (allowing for Hemarulgic decay)

Edited by Bugsy6912
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To be honest, even if it is multiplicative your own size should still have an effect. I'm Googling ants and insects right now (not reliable but hey), the most obvious first thought when it comes to strength-size discrepancy, and weight is very definitely more of a volume-related thing while muscular strength isn't. It's based more on the surface area of the muscle capable of being contracted. So one is proportional to a cubic property while the other (which pewter enhances) is proportional to a square property.

So if we simulate a hypothetical person with a magical device that lets us scale their size up and down while maintaining proportions (or you can be mundane cosmere and just use a pewter-iron twinborn), as we shrink them their strength relative to their size goes up, since their weight "shrinks" faster, and they look stronger compared to how puny they are. As we make them bigger, eventually the weight outpaces the strength so much that they can't move (if we ignore the weight simply killing them).

Even if your strength increases less, if the burden of weight the strength needs to move decreases more, there should be a slight difference in which packs more strength advantage. You can multiply the strength by a factor, but since it still won't be cubic the relative difference doesn't "scale" the same way. Though the initially stronger guy can still exert more raw force, but the lighter one can move heavier things relative to their own weight. Including themselves. Vin should be faster no matter what.

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