Desolations, Ideals, and the Ages of Individual Knights Radiant

[Random Observations R Me]

I'm... not entirely certain how this thought came to mind, but... well, damnation. I feel rather stupid for not questioning this earlier, even though it brings up topics that have the potential to be highly disturbing.

 

WARNING: The following is not for the weak of stomach.

 

Fact One: We know that Shallan started doing her Radiant thing as a child. She was able to summon her Shardblade and everything, even if she didn't understand what was going on.

 

Extrapolation: Other children, too, have done this throughout history. I find it highly unlikely that Shallan and Lift are the only two children to ever become proto-Radiants.

 

Fact Two: The Desolations were horrible, terrible wars against the powers of darkness and hate, with casualty counts usually in the 90% range.

 

Extrapolation: It sounds like no soldier could be spared during these potentially world-ending wars. This probably also means the Radiants. Heck, especially the Radiants.

 

Questions:

 

Does this mean that some of the Radiants that fought during the Desolations were child soldiers?

 

Would a twelve-year-old Windrunner not going to battle when he could potentially save people count as him not living up to his oaths?

 

Am I overthinking this?

 

I know that we are told in WoR that only one-in-three Knights Radiant were warriors. But, again, 90% casualty rates makes it sound like pulling punches wasn't an option. What are your thoughts on this, everyone? Do you agree that those children were likely counted among the two-in-three that weren't fighters? Do you think the Radiants employed child soldiers when it was necessary? Or, do you have other thoughts on the matter?

Edited March 18, 2016 by Random Observations R Me

[Vander]

When it was necessary? Maybe. I don't think they'd be sending 12-year-olds to the front, in most cases, but maybe children a few years older.

 

On the other hand, I always imagined it as a system where Radiant-children are made to join, train, and eventually go on to the field, or other "adult" jobs. Almost like a monastery, I guess. (Because, well, an adolescent or teenager, even with Surges and a Shardblade, would be no good in a full battle. Hormones, man.)

Edited March 18, 2016 by Car'a'carn

[Oversleep]

I am not sure 12 year old still counted as a child in Middle Ages. I don't know how it was on Roshar, but if Earth's history is any indicator... I'd say teenagers surely did fight in Desolations, but I have no idea how young.

Sunmaker was 17 when he started his conquest.
How old was Kaladin and Tien when joining the army? Tien 13, Kaladin 15.
Amaram says that in cities boys of age 8 or 9 are taken to the army (Lirin points out that they're trained for officers).

I'd also provide some Earth examples, but I'm not much of historian. From what I've found it seems that people were regarded adults at the age of twelve in Middle Ages.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Oversleep

[Argel he/him]

Apparently children in warfare is more common today: http://www.brookings.edu/research/interviews/2006/06/12humanrights-singer.

 

Regardless, facing a desolation, it seems like someone should be making a case for why children would not be directly involved.

[Yata he/him]

Well without talk about Ethics... in the Roshar's Scenario.. there are reasons to send child in battle if they are Surgebinders... They probably with a little training be more usefull than a small-medium unit of regolar Soldiers.

 

Anyway in one of the Dalinar's Vision we saw two KR recluting him and send him to "training".... If this is the standard method...any actual Surgebinder will recive an elite trainer I suppose.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Yata

[Oversleep]

Anyway in one of the Dalinar's Vision we saw two KR recluting him and send him to "training".... If this is the standard method...any actual Surgebinder will recive an elite trainer I suppose.

Yeah, but that was time between Desolations. What if a Surgebinder shows up during Desolation? I doubt they won't send him to fight, as they need everyone they have, but on the other hand, sending untrained Surgebinder to die in the first battle is a waste. They probably give him a crash course so he would know what he is doing and how to do it. They may not have the time to give full combat training, but they can at least give some tips on SUrgebinding.

[Yata he/him]

Yeah, but that was time between Desolations. What if a Surgebinder shows up during Desolation? I doubt they won't send him to fight, as they need everyone they have, but on the other hand, sending untrained Surgebinder to die in the first battle is a waste. They probably give him a crash course so he would know what he is doing and how to do it. They may not have the time to give full combat training, but they can at least give some tips on SUrgebinding.

Well if for example the bond gift some combat experience (like Kaladin) a proto-radiant is a good fighter... but I suppose they would be trained by some Complete KR to progress in their Oaths and became a One-man-Army for the future battles 

[Oversleep]

Well if for example the bond gift some combat experience (like Kaladin) a proto-radiant is a good fighter... but I suppose they would be trained by some Complete KR to progress in their Oaths and became a One-man-Army for the future battles 

It actually doesn't grant any combat experience - Stormlight heightens your attributes (speed, strenght, reaction time and so on), so for somebody who already was talented at fighting... it makes them One Man Army, like Kaladin.

I doubt Shallan knows how to fight just by the virtue of Nahel Bond.

 

Now, I want to see Dalinar The Blackthorn, the famed genius warrior with Stormlight.

[Yata he/him]

Now, I want to see Dalinar The Blackthorn, the famed genius warrior with Stormlight.

Well I see the Blackthorn more as a furious Berserker than a genius warrior... To me now, without the Thrill many Alethi will have some problem to fight.

[maxal she/her]

Brandon once stated that while there was technically no lower limit, in terms of age, to develop a Nahel bond, Shallan was close to a realistic threshold. In other words, little children can't develop a Nahel bond. As for older children, I agree with above commentary stating past time had a different take on what was defined as "children". While Lirin was understandably upset Tien was drafted into the army, the fact remains there were enough of "Tien" to make an entire squad... So he wasn't an isolate case, just a bit younger than the average. Nobody batted an eye at 15 years old Kaladin to enter the army... even Kaladin didn't think himself too young... but maybe Kaladin is just like Dalinar: he never truly was young.

[Jondesu he/him]

Brandon once stated that while there was technically no lower limit, in terms of age, to develop a Nahel bond, Shallan was close to a realistic threshold. In other words, little children can't develop a Nahel bond.

She wasn't a little child at the time?  I can't imagine she was older than 8, and I got the impression she was much younger (5-6?).

 

jW

[maxal she/her]

She wasn't a little child at the time?  I can't imagine she was older than 8, and I got the impression she was much younger (5-6?).

 

jW

 

We don't know her exact age or I don't think we know. I have always took in she was about 10-11 years old. Certainly not 5 or 6. The sprens didn't come back that long ago: all bonds started up about 6 years ago. 

[Shadowfax]

I am not sure 12 year old still counted as a child in Middle Ages. I don't know how it was on Roshar, but if Earth's history is any indicator... I'd say teenagers surely did fight in Desolations, but I have no idea how young.

Sunmaker was 17 when he started his conquest.

How old was Kaladin and Tien when joining the army? Tien 13, Kaladin 15.

Amaram says that in cities boys of age 8 or 9 are taken to the army (Lirin points out that they're trained for officers).

I'd also provide some Earth examples, but I'm not much of historian. From what I've found it seems that people were regarded adults at the age of twelve in Middle Ages.

 

<raises hand> History major here.

 

Yes, in the Middle Ages "children" is a loose term. Lifespan was maybe 40 years for the average peasant type person, so waiting until almost 20 to be an adult was a waste of resources. All over the world during that time, and even earlier, children as young as 6 were married off for political reasons, used as couriers/message runners in wartime, etc. There are more ways to use a child than to put them on the front lines of battle.

 

If they had children Radiants, they could be used in such ways. You don't have to wield a blade to be useful.

[Oversleep]

<raises hand> History major here.

Yeah! Finally somebody who was educated in the matters we're talking about! Upvote!

So, could you tell us what was the lower bound of age of enlistment to army, how old were "children" when they started combat training, these sorts of things?

[Shadowfax]

Yeah! Finally somebody who was educated in the matters we're talking about! Upvote!

So, could you tell us what was the lower bound of age of enlistment to army, how old were "children" when they started combat training, these sorts of things?

 

I can't give specifics on age precisely. Mostly because it wasn't age-based but based off of the onset of puberty, which can vary in individuals. Once a child was seen to begin taking on the physical manifestations of adolescence, they would be, for lack of a better term, transferred to a new household... such as becoming squires. 12 seemed like the average age of a beginning squire, but I'm sure it's give or take a year or two. Children would be shipped off to monasteries, or taken as apprentices to various tradescrafts, or begin to study in earnest with tutors and such if they were females with high enough nobility. Peasantry did not really get to train with weapons, which is why it was relatively easy to conquer lands back then. Noble boys would squire, sometimes well into their 20s, but it really depended on who they learned from, how well they did, etc. It wasn't a formal education system like in a university.

 

All that aside, if you started showing signs of puberty, you were fair game for more grown-up responsibilities. If you were a young female, even as young as say 9, and you started.. you know... you could be married off if it was beneficial. It's also highly dependent on culture. This is mostly from what we know of Anglo-Saxon culture during the medieval period around the time of the Crusades. It was also very common for soldiers to take their entire families with them while on campaign, no one seemed to think twice about kids being around, but they didn't really see combat. Squires acted mostly as aides and didn't really go into combat either.

 

That being said, during Napoleon's era of warfare boys as young as 14 were conscripted for combat. Even American history has members of the military as young as 11 (there's record of a 13 year old receiving a Medal of Honor, and you have to be in the military to get that). Boys of this age were mostly used as drummer boys, not actual combatants, but they did see the front lines as they marched WITH the soldiers and were killed fairly often.

 

So, if we compare Roshar to world history, it's not unreasonable to assume that young Radiants were sent into war, probably as the equivalent of squires, to aide the Knights that were responsible for their training. In fact, I think it would be extremely strange for that NOT to be the truth of it. The safest place for those squires would be with the men who were honor bound to train and protect them.

 

EDIT: I want to be clear, they still were not regarded as adults. In most Anglo places you couldn't even inherit property or titles until you were 21. Adolescence was seen as it's own stage, more responsibility than a child, but not allowed to be running about on their own, like an adult. It was the period of time in which they were homed, clothed, fed and cared for by whomever was in charge of training them (be it as a soldier or a blacksmith or a shopkeeper). They had their own specific duties and were expected to fulfill their roles.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Shadowfax

[Random Observations R Me]

We don't know her exact age or I don't think we know. I have always took in she was about 10-11 years old. Certainly not 5 or 6. The sprens didn't come back that long ago: all bonds started up about 6 years ago. 

I clearly have too much time on my hands, because I calculated how old Shallan was. You were correct. Shallan was 11. She claims to be 11 in the flashback "Red Carpet, Once White" and is 17 in the actual story(though I couldn't find the quote again if I tried).

 

EDIT: Curse the audio book version! I now feel stupid. It gives the whole "X years earlier" bit as "6 years earlier" right before the segment recorded. So, it ends up at the end of the previous chapter instead.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Random Observations R Me

[Shadowfax]

Peter posted on the topic a while back (I had foudnt he post once but now I can't) that Shallan was 17 by the END of WoK, which would make her 16 during the book, which would put her in the 10-11 range for coming into her powers. This is also what's on Coppermind Wiki (they use Rosharan years, not ages, but the math works to 10-11 years old). So, I think this is accurate.

[Jondesu he/him]

Interesting that my mental image of her was so much younger.  Thanks for all the math, ya'll. :-P

 

jW

[Three1415]

It is worth noting that Roshar years are significantly longer than Earth years (almost 50%), and I don't think we know by which the characters refer to themselves (has anyone ever stated how many Weepings they have been through?); for example, Kaladin would in fact be 27 in Earth years if his age were being reported in the former. 

 

Also, as I understand it Shallan had had Lightweaver abilities prior to the flashback chapter (she did summon a Shardblade, after all, which requires being at least third-level, from what we have seen); her repressed memories show her using the powers much earlier, so it is almost certain that she acquired them even younger.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Three1415

[Random Observations R Me]

It is worth noting that Roshar years are significantly longer than Earth years (almost 50%), and I don't think we know by which the characters refer to themselves (has anyone ever stated how many Weepings they have been through?); for example, Kaladin would in fact be 27 in Earth years if his age were being reported in the former. 

 

Also, as I understand it Shallan had had Lightweaver abilities prior to the flashback chapter (she did summon a Shardblade, after all, which requires being at least third-level, from what we have seen); her repressed memories show her using the powers much earlier, so it is almost certain that she acquired them even younger.

Both of those are really nteresting

 

During WoK, Kal notes during a flashback chapter that the older boys snicker about the chances they get to see a girl's safe hand. He doesn't get what the big deal is. If Roshar years are 50% longer, shouldn't he be about fifteen at this time(by earth years)? Unless the humans on Roshar are significantly different biologically, shouldn't he already be in puberty? Come to think of it, Dalinar notes that he's in his forties during book two(the scene where he's getting his shoulder patched up). Wouldn't that make him sixty-something? Admittedly, my grandparents are in really good shape. But, not even they could keep up on a battlefield. I doubt they could use shardplate either.

 

I wonder how long she had those powers?

[Oversleep]

The calculations are off.

Navani is 3 months older than Dalinar. Shallan is 17 at the end of the first book. Kaladin is actually 20 by the end of the the first book, but he forgot his birthday. A Roshar year is 1.1 Earth years.
source

This is canon.

Roshar days are 20 hours long, and the hours are a minute or two shorter than Earth hours. A Roshar Year is approximately 1.1 Earth years.
source

I have no idea where Cheese Ninja got those 20 hours days and hours being shorter from, but I'm quoting it anyway.

[maxal she/her]

It isn't 50% longer, but 1.1 something longer. Someone would have the right ratio. Anyway, there is no telling Roshar humans age the same way as Earth humans: when Kaladin is said to be 12, he acts like a 12 years old, he looks like one, not like an older teenager. Nobody is going to make me believe Kaladin, who is a head taller than everyone else, who was a squad leader at 19 was late for his puberty...

 

For my part, when the book says an age, I take it as the right equivalent age, Earth wise, even it isn't exactly. Too many exterior factors are there you can't truly simply age everyone and expect to be right.

[Random Observations R Me]

The calculations are off.

This is canon.

I have no idea where Cheese Ninja got those 20 hours days and hours being shorter from, but I'm quoting it anyway.

 

It isn't 50% longer, but 1.1 something longer. Someone would have the right ratio. Anyway, there is no telling Roshar humans age the same way as Earth humans: when Kaladin is said to be 12, he acts like a 12 years old, he looks like one, not like an older teenager. Nobody is going to make me believe Kaladin, who is a head taller than everyone else, who was a squad leader at 19 was late for his puberty...

 

For my part, when the book says an age, I take it as the right equivalent age, Earth wise, even it isn't exactly. Too many exterior factors are there you can't truly simply age everyone and expect to be right.

Ah, cool. Thanks for the correction. I thought the 50% sounded odd.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Random Observations R Me

[maxal she/her]

Oh and Dalinar never was in his forties. He has always been in his fifties. 

[Shadowfax]

Thank you Oversleep. I had found that post by Peter once and have just spent the last hour looking for it again. I remember having read it was 1.1 earth years and was trying to find it to post here.