Why is it difficult to store speed?

[Voidus]

So if I only store physical speed i have a slight slowing of perception, slowing of speed, but normal intelligence, store mental speed is slowing of perception, with reduced intelligence, physical and mental results in much slower perception, slowing of speed and intelligence. Then please explain to me the scene where Sazed is storing all his attributes? By that logic he should not even be able to communicate with Vin. 

Have you ever watched a youtube video on 2x speed? It's actually not that difficult. Communication would be pretty simple.

[Pathfinder]

Have you ever watched a youtube video on 2x speed? It's actually not that difficult. Communication would be pretty simple.

But the world would not be reduced at 2 times speed. It would be exponential based on your description. You are already reducing your perception greatly by the same vector as your physical speed because by your explanation they are tied together. Then you are on top of that decreasing your perception greatly by the same vector you are decreasing your mental speed. I forget the math, but reducing your speed, for a certain amount of increase is multiplicative not additive I think is how it is explained? So based on your interpretation, it is my understand that in order to be able to accurately understand what is going on in the world around you while storing both mental and physical at the same time, the amount you would be storing would be negligible. 

[Voidus]

But the world would not be reduced at 2 times speed. It would be exponential based on your description. You are already reducing your perception greatly by the same vector as your physical speed because by your explanation they are tied together. Then you are on top of that decreasing your perception greatly by the same vector you are decreasing your mental speed. I forget the math, but reducing your speed, for a certain amount of increase is multiplicative not additive I think is how it is explained? So based on your interpretation, it is my understand that in order to be able to accurately understand what is going on in the world around you while storing both mental and physical at the same time, the amount you would be storing would be negligible. 

You can store perhaps 20% of your speed safely, assuming you stored similar amounts of mental speed and that they both slowed your perception by that same amount you'd be at about 64% your normal perception, so slightly faster than 2x actually.

[Pathfinder]

You can store perhaps 20% of your speed safely, assuming you stored similar amounts of mental speed and that they both slowed your perception by that same amount you'd be at about 64% your normal perception, so slightly faster than 2x actually.

Which is still no where near the description given of Sazed when he stores all his abilities at the same time. 

[Voidus]

Which is still no where near the description given of Sazed when he stores all his abilities at the same time. 

What other ability would he be storing that would affect it?

[Pathfinder]

What other ability would he be storing that would affect it?

In the scenes I am going to quote below, Sazed is storing only mental speed in one, and only physical speed in the other. Please note the descriptions

 

mental speed only (he is storing other metals but it is clearly specified not physical speed) page 676 Well of Ascension

 "They're finally gone." Sazed paused for a moment, trying to decipher the comment. His thoughts moved as if through a thick, turgid soup, and it took him a moment to understand what Clubs had said.......That made him feel even more guilty to be sitting in the kitchen nook, beside a warm hearth, sipping broth as his metalminds sapped his strength, health, senses, and power of thought. He rarely tried to fill so many at once. 

 

physical speed only (only had steel to use, so could not have stored mental speed) page 628 Hero of Ages

He reached up with the other hand, touching the steel lock with one finger. Then, he began to fill it as well, draining his body of speed. he instantly began to feel lethargic, as if his every motion even his breathing was more difficult. It was like he had to push through some thick substance each time he moved. 

 

So the descriptions show it clearly that physical speed is only physical and mental speed is only mental. 

[Voidus]

In the scenes I am going to quote below, Sazed is storing only mental speed in one, and only physical speed in the other. Please note the descriptions

 

mental speed only (he is storing other metals but it is clearly specified not physical speed) page 676 Well of Ascension

 "They're finally gone." Sazed paused for a moment, trying to decipher the comment. His thoughts moved as if through a thick, turgid soup, and it took him a moment to understand what Clubs had said.......That made him feel even more guilty to be sitting in the kitchen nook, beside a warm hearth, sipping broth as his metalminds sapped his strength, health, senses, and power of thought. He rarely tried to fill so many at once. 

 

physical speed only (only had steel to use, so could not have stored mental speed) page 628 Hero of Ages

He reached up with the other hand, touching the steel lock with one finger. Then, he began to fill it as well, draining his body of speed. he instantly began to feel lethargic, as if his every motion even his breathing was more difficult. It was like he had to push through some thick substance each time he moved. 

 

So the descriptions show it clearly that physical speed is only physical and mental speed is only mental. 

That doesn't really show much of anything, mental speed works pretty much exactly as I said, slowing your thoughts down. (Incidentally it is actually expressly stated in that scene that he is also storing speed)

"He released his pewtermind, however, as well as his steelmind and his zincmind."

The physical speed one just says that it drains his body of speed, which is kind of redundant. Doesn't go into any specifics at all.

[Pathfinder]

The physical speed one just says that it drains his body of speed, which is kind of redundant. Doesn't go into any specifics at all.

It does too specify, right here:

 

he instantly began to feel lethargic, as if his every motion even his breathing was more difficult. It was like he had to push through some thick substance each time he moved

 

How more specific does it need to be? What does it have to say to convince you?

[Pathfinder]

another quote:

 

Well of Ascension page 224 Five months of storing, of spending every fifth day drained of speed, my body moving as if impeded by a thick molasses. And now it's all gone.

 

Does not say "and mind slow". Only body. It is faulty reasoning to say just because it isn't explicitly stated that it does not cause a slowing of perception, that it must cause a slowing of perception. 

 

edit: btw, as a side benefit of this, it confirms that you can sit still and store speed. In one of these quotes, Saze is locked up where the kandra are and just sits there, touching the lock as he stores speed. So he isn't moving yet can still store. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Voidus]

It does too specify, right here:

 

he instantly began to feel lethargic, as if his every motion even his breathing was more difficult. It was like he had to push through some thick substance each time he moved

 

How more specific does it need to be? What does it have to say to convince you?

Literally anything other than what we already know it does by definition? If you store the trait speed it will store your speed, that was never in doubt, what is in doubt is whether it also stores other things.

 

 

another quote:

 

Well of Ascension page 224 Five months of storing, of spending every fifth day drained of speed, my body moving as if impeded by a thick molasses. And now it's all gone.

 

Does not say "and mind slow". Only body. 

I didn't say it slows your mind only your perception.

 

 It is faulty reasoning to say just because it isn't explicitly stated that it does not cause a slowing of perception, that it must cause a slowing of perception. 

 

edit: btw, as a side benefit of this, it confirms that you can sit still and store speed. In one of these quotes, Saze is locked up where the kandra are and just sits there, touching the lock as he stores speed. So he isn't moving yet can still store. 

 

You're quite right, but the fact that tapping it definitely does speed up your perception does heavily imply (if not outright demand) that storing it must slow your perception, otherwise you're getting something for nothing which is not how feruchemy works.

Well he was still breathing among other things so still not conclusive proof, but I'm inclined to agree on that front.

[Pathfinder]

Literally anything other than what we already know it does by definition? If you store the trait speed it will store your speed, that was never in doubt, what is in doubt is whether it also stores other things.

 

 

I didn't say it slows your mind only your perception.

 

 

You're quite right, but the fact that tapping it definitely does speed up your perception does heavily imply (if not outright demand) that storing it must slow your perception, otherwise you're getting something for nothing which is not how feruchemy works.

Well he was still breathing among other things so still not conclusive proof, but I'm inclined to agree on that front.

Just like the other thread we are going back and forth on. I provide quotes from the books and WoB that support what I state. You ignore them and state that what you believe is right. So please put your money where your mouth is and provide the pertinent quotes and accurate WoB that support your assertion. Otherwise all you are doing is saying i am wrong because you say so. I am the one doing all the work to research this and provide information, and you are choosing to ignore it. 

[Voidus]

Just like the other thread we are going back and forth on. I provide quotes from the books and WoB that support what I state. You ignore them and state that what you believe is right. So please put your money where your mouth is and provide the pertinent quotes and accurate WoB that support your assertion. Otherwise all you are doing is saying i am wrong because you say so. I am the one doing all the work to research this and provide information, and you are choosing to ignore it. 

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm directly stating why those quotes aren't proving what you think they're proving, you're stating things that I don't disagree with. Yes speed stores speed, that is self evident and was never doubted by me, so you don't need to post a quote that says that speed stores speed, posting that quote does not earn argument points that mean your other points are equally valid by association it just means that we can both now agree that speed definitely stores speed. Was that your only point? Because if not you need quotes that back up your other points, the ones we actually disagree on.

Do you really need me to pull out quotes that support the assertion that steel speeds up your perception when tapped? It's pretty common knowledge but I can if you really want me to.

 

 

Alterodent: With zinc, you get mental speed. How is that any different from steel, except without [physical] speed?

A: I think of the mental speed actually turning you into... Let's say you sped up your body, and you wanted to figure out some really complex equations.

Q: So it lets you have intuitive leaps.

A: Right. It basically turns you into Ken Jennings. That's how I imagine it.

Kurk: So it's not like bullet time?

A: No... It'll bullet time a little bit, it certainly will, because you're thinking faster than everyone else, but it has applications beyond bullet timing. Bullet time is really-

Kurk: That’s steel’s thing?

A: That’s kind of steel's thing. They overlap on that one, because the steel thing... But yeah. It's more like "I think fast, but my reaction speed is not sped up".

Brandon openly points out that the two overlap on the matter of perception.

[Pathfinder]

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm directly stating why those quotes aren't proving what you think they're proving, you're stating things that I don't disagree with. Yes speed stores speed, that is self evident and was never doubted by me, so you don't need to post a quote that says that speed stores speed, posting that quote does not earn argument points that mean your other points are equally valid by association it just means that we can both now agree that speed definitely stores speed. Was that your only point? Because if not you need quotes that back up your other points, the ones we actually disagree on.

Do you really need me to pull out quotes that support the assertion that steel speeds up your perception when tapped? It's pretty common knowledge but I can if you really want me to.

 

Brandon openly points out that the two overlap on the matter of perception.

I want a quote that shows by only storing physical speed that you slow down perception as well. Every quote I have provided only described physical speed being slowed down when physical speed is stored. So please provide me with a quote where only physical speed is being stored but also describes a slowing of perception. Let me know when you find it. I will wait. 

[Voidus]

I want a quote that shows by only storing physical speed that you slow down perception as well. Every quote I have provided only described physical speed being slowed down when physical speed is stored. So please provide me with a quote where only physical speed is being stored but also describes a slowing of perception. Let me know when you find it. I will wait. 

I don't have one, you don't have one stating the opposite. So you'll have to decide if breaking the fundamental rules of feruchemy and getting increased perception when tapping without having to store it is possible for some reason or if your theory might be wrong.

[Pathfinder]

I don't have one, you don't have one stating the opposite. So you'll have to decide if breaking the fundamental rules of feruchemy and getting increased perception when tapping without having to store it is possible for some reason or if your theory might be wrong.

When Wax stores weight do his bones become brittle?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Voidus]

When Wax stores weight does his bones become brittle?

No, but they don't become more durable when he taps, just able to support his incredible weight, an effect that I'm pretty certain is indeed reversed when storing.

[Pathfinder]

No, but they don't become more durable when he taps, just able to support his incredible weight, an effect that I'm pretty certain is indeed reversed when storing.

So you just said they don't become more durable but they do? When he taps his bones become more durable to withstand his increased weight. Same thing with his organs so his skeleton does not snap nor his organs hemorrhage yet does not apply to any other external force. So tell me, where is that coming from? you stated yourself by laws of feruchemy, that cannot come from no where. So how does he store that capability? Despite having quotes from Brandon that feruchemical abilities have certain intrinsic properties that help the user use the ability. Despite the perception used to aid the steel runner in running so they don't smack face first into something. it must come from somewhere. So if a steel runner must store the perception, even though that is already covered in mental speed, then how does Wax's bones become denser purely for allowing him to tap weight? Where does that come from?

[Voidus]

So you just said they don't become more durable but they do? When he taps his bones become more durable to withstand his increased weight. Same thing with his organs so his skeleton does not snap nor his organs hemorrhage yet does not apply to any other external force. So tell me, where is that coming from? you stated yourself by laws of feruchemy, that cannot come from no where. So how does he store that capability? Despite having quotes from Brandon that feruchemical abilities have certain intrinsic properties that help the user use the ability. Despite the perception used to aid the steel runner in running so they don't smack face first into something. it must come from somewhere. So if a steel runner must store the perception, even though that is already covered in mental speed, then how does Wax's bones become denser purely for allowing him to tap weight? Where does that come from?

No they don't become more durable just able to withstand the weight increase, it's one of those feruchemical weirdness things like why doesn't tapping a bunch of strength rip your skin open or why doesn't tapping speed cause all of your bones to break when you take a step, you're immune to the direct results of your overtapping, not anything else.

From the same place, storing it. If you retained your former strength when storing weight you'd be able to do all sorts of weird things, paradoxically you'd be able to lift larger objects because less stress is placed on you from your own body.

[Pathfinder]

No they don't become more durable just able to withstand the weight increase, it's one of those feruchemical weirdness things like why doesn't tapping a bunch of strength rip your skin open or why doesn't tapping speed cause all of your bones to break when you take a step, you're immune to the direct results of your overtapping, not anything else.

From the same place, storing it. If you retained your former strength when storing weight you'd be able to do all sorts of weird things, paradoxically you'd be able to lift larger objects because less stress is placed on you from your own body.

Then please provide proof that the added perception when steel running is different than the added bone and organ strength to survive tapping weight. 

[Voidus]

Then please provide proof that the added perception when steel running is different than the added bone and organ strength to survive tapping weight. 

Why would I do that? I'm saying they're the same. Your bones become less able to store weight when storing, or you'd be able to do weird stuff that has never been mentioned in the books, so your perception should become slower while storing speed for the same reason.

But I could point out some differences, for instance perception isn't a protection against increased speed. Without extra perception your body won't suffer any harm, it purely makes it more useful. Tapping too much feruchemical pewter doesn't give you the ability to move around as though you didn't have giant muscles. Increased reflexes could arguably be considered protection but that's not what happens, you get bullet time. 

[Oversleep]

Can we just agree that steel stores the speed of the body (including processing speed of senses and so on) but not the mind and zinc stores speed of the mind?

Tapping zinc doesn't directly increase processing speed of the body (nerves and such), but sped up mind indirectly allows to achieve effect similar as if it did.
That's why tapping speed gets you bullet time and why tapping zinc somehow overlaps on that.

[Voidus]

Can we just agree that steel stores the speed of the body (including processing speed of senses and so on) but not the mind and zinc stores speed of the mind?

Tapping zinc doesn't directly increase processing speed of the body (nerves and such), but sped up mind indirectly allows to achieve effect similar as if it did.

That's why tapping speed gets you bullet time and why tapping zinc somehow overlaps on that.

Apparently no we can't. It's the 'including' that's the problem. I agree with you that it stores processing speed (And so storing it lowers processing speed, tapping it raises it), Pathfinder does not.

[Observer]

Can somebody post the quote from SoS, for the record, that shows tapping F!Steel as increasing perception speed? It's the one where Bleeder is seen to move and react as if in real time when viewed from inside a Bendalloy bubble.

 

Your ability to hold up your own weight is something we do see decrease when storing, in BOM. It's not quite bone strength, but Wax notes that making himself lighter actually does weaken his muscles and ability to move, the opposite of his not getting crushed when becoming heavier than a building. As perception is something gained from tapping F!Steel, it's very likely you will lose perception speed while storing.

Of course, it's hard to tell how much you gain/lose. It could be that your perception is much like Wax's ability to hold himself up.

Ex: When Wax makes himself heavier than a truck, iirc, he has difficulty walking to some degree. He can hold himself up, but he's not given many favors in regards to being able to move around. Much the same way storing weight does allow Wax to move differently and physically jump heigher, but impacts his ability to do things like lift himself. Steel might give you just enough perception to not kill yourself, but doesn't give you enough to do anything beyond that. This either means Bleeder was forced to stick to more or less basic motor functions while using Steel, or is means that as a Kandra she was able to do something to her mind to make up for the difference.

(Assuming I'm right)

Edited February 23, 2016 by Observer

[Voidus]

Can somebody post the quote from SoS, for the record, that shows tapping F!Steel as increasing perception speed? It's the one where Bleeder is seen to move and react as if in real time when viewed from inside a Bendalloy bubble.

 

Your ability to hold up your own weight is something we do see decrease when storing, in BOM. It's not quite bone strength, but Wax notes that making himself lighter actually does weaken his muscles and ability to move, the opposite of his not getting crushed when becoming heavier than a building. As perception is something gained from tapping F!Steel, it's very likely you will lose perception speed while storing.

Of course, it's hard to tell how much you gain/lose. It could be that your perception is much like Wax's ability to hold himself up.

Ex: When Wax makes himself heavier than a truck, iirc, he has difficulty walking to some degree. He can hold himself up, but he's not given many favors in regards to being able to move around. Much the same way storing weight does allow Wax to move differently and physically jump heigher, but impacts his ability to do things like lift himself. Steel might give you just enough perception to not kill yourself, but doesn't give you enough to do anything beyond that. This either means Bleeder was forced to stick to more or less basic motor functions while using Steel, or is means that as a Kandra she was able to do something to her mind to make up for the difference.

(Assuming I'm right)

SoS spoilers

Given that she was fast enough to fire a gun from multiple angles in an instant I'd say its safe to say it scales up quite a lot, you'd need perception dozens if not hundreds of times faster than normal to do that.

[Oversleep]

...Aren't we being pretty spoilery with events of SoS so much in the open?