Dakhor Monks Using Twisted Awakening?

[Voidus]

No, they use the Dor, that's not in doubt. It explicitly states that the Dor powers the Dakhor monks, not that it is the reason those powers exist.

[Pathfinder]

No, they use the Dor, that's not in doubt. It explicitly states that the Dor powers the Dakhor monks, not that it is the reason those powers exist.

Then please explain to me why, Brandon said the same quote I posted earlier:

 

WINDRUNNER

Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion's power?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.

 

edit: how about this, how about you provide me some quotes that support what you are saying?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Voidus]

 

Then please explain to me why, Brandon said the same quote I posted earlier:

 

WINDRUNNER

Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion's power?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.

 

edit: how about this, how about you provide me some quotes that support what you are saying?

 

That's stating what the Dor is made up of, that's also not in question.

You seem to be arguing something completely different.

To clarify:

I agree that the Dor powers all magic on Sel

I agree that the Dor is made up of both Devotion and Dominion

I don't agree that the Dor is by necessity the source of all magic on Sel.

Well there's the fact that one magic literally has the Shardholders name in it, picks particularly devoted people and is generally supported by and effects the Splinters of that Shard while another picks people in a rigid domineering society, works based upon principles of dominating others and is supported by the Splinters of the other Shard... not sure what more would convince you.

[Pathfinder]

That's stating what the Dor is made up of, that's also not in question.

You seem to be arguing something completely different.

To clarify:

I agree that the Dor powers all magic on Sel

I agree that the Dor is made up of both Devotion and Dominion

I don't agree that the Dor is by necessity the source of all magic on Sel.

Well there's the fact that one magic literally has the Shardholders name in it, picks particularly devoted people and is generally supported by and effects the Splinters of that Shard while another picks people in a rigid domineering society, works based upon principles of dominating others and is supported by the Splinters of the other Shard... not sure what more would convince you.

Because that is how the society was shaped by the skaze who have nothing to do with the power itself as per the quotes I provided, which you are choosing to ignore. So please provide to me quotes that clearly support what you are ascertaining since the ones I have provided do not seem valid to you. 

[Voidus]

Because that is how the society was shaped by the skaze who have nothing to do with the power itself as per the quotes I provided, which you are choosing to ignore. So please provide to me quotes that clearly support what you are ascertaining since the ones I have provided do not seem valid to you. 

The ones you have provided aren't not valid, they're just completely irrelevant. You're proving things that I don't disagree with.

And actually your quote says:

 

 

 

They are mostly ritualistic, but a lot of what the Dakhor do is strongly influenced by the Skaze. Read into that what you will.


Note the 'but'? That tends to imply that there is an exception to the previous statement, implying that those parts that are influenced by the Skaze are not purely ritualistic, implying that it does matter to the power. Mostly though this is Brandon just being typically vague to avoid giving away too much, which he even points out at the end of the quote.

[Pathfinder]

The ones you have provided aren't not valid, they're just completely irrelevant. You're proving things that I don't disagree with.

And actually your quote says:

 

Note the 'but'? That tends to imply that there is an exception to the previous statement, implying that those parts that are influenced by the Skaze are not purely ritualistic, implying that it does matter to the power. Mostly though this is Brandon just being typically vague to avoid giving away too much, which he even points out at the end of the quote.

Then prove it. Show me other quotes that support what you are saying

[Voidus]

Then prove it. Show me other quotes that support what you are saying

You want quotes to prove that AonDor has Aonas name in it? Or that the Skaze run the Fjordell society? Or the obviously dominion-like traits behind the acquisition and use of the Dakhor abilities? Or that Devotions splinters are Aons? 

[Pathfinder]

You want quotes to prove that AonDor has Aonas name in it? Or that the Skaze run the Fjordell society? Or the obviously dominion-like traits behind the acquisition and use of the Dakhor abilities? Or that Devotions splinters are Aons? 

I want a quote that states that the dakhor monk's magic is more dominion than devotion. I want a quote that states that that all elantians are more devotion than dominion. I want a quote that states how much forging is dominion vs devotion. I want a quote stating the same about bloodsealing and chaysan. Let me know when you find them. I will wait. 

[Voidus]

I want a quote that states that the dakhor monk's magic is more dominion than devotion. I want a quote that states that that all elantians are more devotion than dominion. I want a quote that states how much forging is dominion vs devotion. I want a quote stating the same about bloodsealing and chaysan. Let me know when you find them. I will wait. 

Those don't exist. If there was a concrete quote concerning either I would have presented it, so I suppose you have to decide whether the slew of similarities mentioned count as enough evidence or if you'll just go with your theory.

If you don't find that convincing then there's not much I can do.

[Pathfinder]

Those don't exist. If there was a concrete quote concerning either I would have presented it, so I suppose you have to decide whether the slew of similarities mentioned count as enough evidence or if you'll just go with your theory.

If you don't find that convincing then there's not much I can do.

Exactly. The same stands with my quotes. The ones I provide you do not feel are concrete proof either so we have reached an impasse. 

[Voidus]

Exactly. The same stands with my quotes. The ones I provide you do not feel are concrete proof either so we have reached an impasse. 

No, they are absolutely concrete proof, just not proof at all of the point you're trying to make. My point is that you haven't provided any quotes that are actually relevant to the matter that we actually disagree on.

[Pathfinder]

No, they are absolutely concrete proof, just not proof at all of the point you're trying to make. My point is that you haven't provided any quotes that are actually relevant to the matter that we actually disagree on.

That is your opinion. We have still reached an impasse as I disagree. You cannot provide quotes at all that prove what you are stating, and you feel the quotes I provide do not prove what I am stating. So nothing further can be gained from you and I discussing this. 

[Pagerunner]

Sorry to interrupt, but what exactly do you guys mean by "source of the power." Is it where the properties of the magic system came from originally? Is it how individuals gain access to said Magic (Initiation, I believe, is the term given in the Elantris Ars Arcanum)?

[Voidus]

That is your opinion. We have still reached an impasse as I disagree. You cannot provide quotes at all that prove what you are stating, and you feel the quotes I provide do not prove what I am stating. So nothing further can be gained from you and I discussing this. 

Then prove that they're relevant. I explained why they're not you never replied, how does a quote that says that the Dor powers something mean anything other than that the Dor powers something?

I can provide plenty of quotes if you want but I didn't feel they're needed, my points are pretty basic not some obscure WoB from a long forgotten interview, they're popular pieces of information referenced repeatedly throughout the books.

 

Sorry to interrupt, but what exactly do you guys mean by "source of the power." Is it where the properties of the magic system came from originally? Is it how individuals gain access to said Magic (Initiation, I believe, is the term given in the Elantris Ars Arcanum)?

The former, though related to the latter, for example Feruchemy is powered by the feruchemist but the initiation is genetic and the source is Ruin and Preservation.

[Pathfinder]

Then prove that they're relevant. I explained why they're not you never replied, how does a quote that says that the Dor powers something mean anything other than that the Dor powers something?

I can provide plenty of quotes if you want but I didn't feel they're needed, my points are pretty basic not some obscure WoB from a long forgotten interview, they're popular pieces of information referenced repeatedly throughout the books.

 

The former, though related to the latter, for example Feruchemy is powered by the feruchemist but the initiation is genetic and the source is Ruin and Preservation.

I have explained myself ad nauseum, I have referenced WoB that support what I state. You feel they do not apply and have made it very clear that no matter how I try to explain it, they are not good enough for you. If you have these copious quotes you claim, then do your due diligence and provide them. If this is to be a debate, then it should not be on me to do all the research just so you can try to poke holes. Put your money where your mouth is and provide quotes of your own. Till then as I said we are an an impasse, and continuing to repeat the same information over and over is pointless for me. I made my case, and I feel I made it well. You don't like it, then fine. I respect your opinion and am not going to beat a dead horse. 

[18th Shard]

Pathfinder, what Voidus is implying is that simply because AonDor is powered by the Dor, does not imply it naturally arose as an interaction with the Dor. For example, Hemalurgy is inherently Ruinous, yet Harmony's ascension did not change this. WOB do show that Ruin and Preservation have experienced some intermingling, yet the systems that originated with them remain tainted by the Intent of the Shard.

 

I.e. as AonDor seems heavily Devotion-ly Intented, it can be theorized with as much or more validity as your point of view that AonDor arose as Sel's interaction with the shard Devotion. Aon-a is a big point, and Seons [splinters of Devotion] that hold Aons within them, appear mainly in territory specified to be that in which one can be an Elantrian. Conversely, Skaze [splinters of Dominion] appear in Fjordell, and Dakhor seems to focus heavily on being Dominant over others. This leads many to very logically conclude that these systems arose as interactions with Devotion and Dominion respectively. Their 'patron' shards' splintering does not have to change the intent of the system, merely the source of power.

[Voidus]

I have explained myself ad nauseum, I have referenced WoB that support what I state.

No they don't and no you haven't frequently you haven't even repeated the actual quote, just referenced that you posted one a page ago. And ad nauseum? That's both insulting and untrue, this is a 2 page thread even if you'd done it on every page that's still not ad nauseum

But let's review. You can explain in turn how each one means what you're stating.

 

 

JOSH

Are the Dahkor magics powered by the Dor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

I specifically mentioned this one and you declined to answer.

So how does this quote prove that the Dor is the source rather than just the power behind Dakhor magic?

 

 

LOCKE219 ()

When Dilaf is instructing the monks in how to kill the Elantrians, he mentions purification rites that need to be spoken. Do the riteshave to do with the Dor? Or are they purely religious/ritualistic?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

They are mostly ritualistic, but a lot of what the Dakhor do is strongly influenced by the Skaze. Read into that what you will.


This one says nothing about the Dor at all, in fact Brandon ignores the Dor as an explanation and instead focuses on the Skaze, how does this quote mean that the Dor is the source?

 

 

 

WINDRUNNER

Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion's power?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.

This is purely on the nature of the Dor itself, not even addressing any magic and Brandon doesn't actually answer it. But I am happy to concede that this quote shows that the Dor is indeed made up of both powers. Now how does this quote mean that the Dor is the source for Dakhor magic?

 

 

Is all magic on Sel influenced by both Dominion and Devotion?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Technically, yes. But they definitely have their themes and focuses. Influence is a tricky word, I'll warn you

A technicality answer wherein he literally state that they have their focuses and warns against using a vague word like influence. How does this prove that the Dor explicitly is the source of Dakhor magic?

If you want quotes that's fine, all you had to do was ask:

 

 

 

CHAOS

This is other information we overheard while we were there.

 

Skaze are the evil seons, and are related to Skai. Seons are related to the AonDor and thus Aona.

Skaze are related to skai and also to the Dakhor magic, Seons are related to AonDor and thus to Aona.

Also mentions both AonDor and the Shardholder Aona with the obvious link there if you need a quote for those.

 

 

 

VIPER

SPLINTER. Are the Aons at the heart of Seons SPLINTERS of Aona?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

Aons are splinters of Aona (Devotion)

 

 

 

LOCKE219 ()

Was Wyrn's drive to topple Elantris purely a typical, conquest-related motivation? Or did it arise after Fjordell gained access to the Dor?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

The Skaze have a large amount of influence on most politics and most working in Fjordell.


Skaze have a large amount influence Fjordell.

 

 

 

VIPER

Wyrn can see into the future ... is he a follower of Dominion or of Odium? Cause Dominion is shattered, so ...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Dominion.

Wyrn follows Dominion, another link to the Dakhor. Also implies that this gives some level of power since so far as we know only the essence of Shards allows for futuresight.

[Ari]

Guys, this is why I stopped replying to this thread, lol. Thanks for trying, but I don't think Pathfinder really understands the difference between "the Dor is the power source for all Selish magic" and the other influences that Shards had or continue to have on those magic systems. You would expect the Dor to remain the power source for all Selish magic that draws from an external power source anyway, as they would recognise the Dor as Devotion or Dominion's power nevertheless, and reach for it, even after they were intermingled.

 

I imagine, for instance, that if you asked a similar question to Brandon about Scadrian magic- is it all influenced by both Preservation and Ruin- he could similarly answer yes to that question, because for instance, you've never asked how influenced by each each system is, and you've never really clarified what "influence" means. It's pretty obvious in the story that Skai/Dominion has had some part in shaping the Dakhor magic, or that it was once associated with him. Likewise it is also pretty obvious that Aona/Devotion had a similar association with AonDor, as we have noted the two most obvious examples in this thread.

 

You're welcome to continue to disagree, Pathfinder, the issue is that the evidence you're quoting is only related to the stuff we all already agree with. Everyone accepts the Dor is a mixture of Devotion and Dominion's power. That doesn't mean that the historical influences on the magic have suddenly evened out, or that the magic is not still influenced by powerful splinters that came from either Dominion (ie. the Skaze) or Devotion. (ie. Seons, and the voice from the Elantrian shardpool, which is possibly Aona's cognitive shadow)

[Pathfinder]

No they don't and no you haven't frequently you haven't even repeated the actual quote, just referenced that you posted one a page ago. And ad nauseum? That's both insulting and untrue, this is a 2 page thread even if you'd done it on every page that's still not ad nauseum

But let's review. You can explain in turn how each one means what you're stating.

 

I specifically mentioned this one and you declined to answer.

So how does this quote prove that the Dor is the source rather than just the power behind Dakhor magic?

 

This one says nothing about the Dor at all, in fact Brandon ignores the Dor as an explanation and instead focuses on the Skaze, how does this quote mean that the Dor is the source?

 

This is purely on the nature of the Dor itself, not even addressing any magic and Brandon doesn't actually answer it. But I am happy to concede that this quote shows that the Dor is indeed made up of both powers. Now how does this quote mean that the Dor is the source for Dakhor magic?

 

A technicality answer wherein he literally state that they have their focuses and warns against using a vague word like influence. How does this prove that the Dor explicitly is the source of Dakhor magic?

If you want quotes that's fine, all you had to do was ask:

 

Skaze are related to skai and also to the Dakhor magic, Seons are related to AonDor and thus to Aona.

Also mentions both AonDor and the Shardholder Aona with the obvious link there if you need a quote for those.

 

Aons are splinters of Aona (Devotion)

 

Skaze have a large amount influence Fjordell.

 

Wyrn follows Dominion, another link to the Dakhor. Also implies that this gives some level of power since so far as we know only the essence of Shards allows for futuresight.

Your rehash of the quotes I have already explained my view I will disregard, as you have disregarded my explanation of them. I am not going to go figuratively hoarse just repeating the same info. Now to reply finally to quotes that you have provided (btw which I have been asking for this entire time) 

 

The Skaze and the Seons do not come into play into this as you do not need to bond one in order to access said power. You could bond them let a nahel bond and gain an ability, but it is cleary stated that the monks, the elantians, forgery and chaysan are not due to such bonds. This also replies to the next quote you made so I shall move to the following one

 

The Skaze have a large amount of influence on most politics and most working in Fjordell.


 

That doesn't say the magic, doesn't say the monks, it says the politics and most workings. So sure the hierarchy of Fjordell is due to the Skaze, woohoo, that still has nothing to do with the magic. 

 

Again, Wyrm thinks a system that results in a dictatorship that he can rule without question is downright keen. Congrats, again that has to do with the hierarchy that is built on a religion that is dominion. it still does not predicate that having your bones warped and powers is of more dominion than devotion. Because if we say that, then the magic becomes more based on interpretation than actual. Because I can then say that the monk has to be super devoted so his country to sacrifice himself to see his people succeed. That is nationalism. Check the definition. It literally says "devotion and loyalty to one's own country; patriotism." here's the link 

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nationalism

 

I can then say that hey taking a power that pervades all things, and forcing it into a rigid symbol, that I can then control via mathmatical modifiers is very dominiony. Storms it is downright science, which the definition clearly states that too "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment." link shown below:

 

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=science+definition

 

I will be happy to research and reference elantians that were very dominiony as mentioned by Galladon, if that would actually matter. But I will be told "well that isn't clear enough. we didn't see the elantians say it themselves" or "that isn't valid, they could just be having an off day" or "that doesn't work, that was galladon's interpretation". 

 

I do not just snap my fingers, and these quotes appear. I have to do searches in the book, and online. it is work. I feel I have every right to ask the same amount of work of those who wish to counter what I state. When you assert something to me, have something to back it up other than because you said so. So just like the other thread, I will only reply to those who provide quotes or WoB. If I am proven wrong by those, I will happily thank you as I have learned something new and my understanding has grown. But I do not have to take what you state as fact when you do not provide information to meet me. 

[Voidus]

 

Your rehash of the quotes I have already explained my view I will disregard, as you have disregarded my explanation of them. I am not going to go figuratively hoarse just repeating the same info. Now to reply finally to quotes that you have provided (btw which I have been asking for this entire time) 

You didn't explain them, that's my point, just quote a previous post if you really think you did but I cannot honestly see how you might think you explained how any of them relate to the topic at hand. Again, please don't be rude, this is a polite discussion of disagreeing opinions we're not politicians trying to destroy each others' reputations or anything.

 

The Skaze and the Seons do not come into play into this as you do not need to bond one in order to access said power. 

We only know that as it applies to Elantrians, we have no idea what the Skaze do or how it might relate to the Dakhor, aside from which, not needing to bond doesn't mean they don't come into play, they're the splinters of the Shards we're talking about, of course what they do and are is relevant.

 

 

 

That doesn't say the magic, doesn't say the monks, it says the politics and most workings. So sure the hierarchy of Fjordell is due to the Skaze, woohoo, that still has nothing to do with the magic. 

 

Most workings might mean something else to you but to me it means almost all workings, which certainly includes the monks and magic, aside from which the politics in Fjordell are the monks.

 

 

 

Again, Wyrm thinks a system that results in a dictatorship that he can rule without question is downright keen. Congrats, again that has to do with the hierarchy that is built on a religion that is dominion.

That quote says nothing about a system of dictatorship, it says that he worships Dominion. Capital 'D'. As in the Shard. As in, directly related to the issue we're discussing.

 

 

 

 it still does not predicate that having your bones warped and powers is of more dominion than devotion.

He follows Dominion not the Dor, he instated the magic that is used, is the head of the order and has magic of his own from some source. It doesn't mean a certainty but it's an awful lot to just ignore for no reason.

 

 

Because I can then say that the monk has to be super devoted so his country to sacrifice himself to see his people succeed.

Sure, but then I will point out that personal motivations are irrelevant compared to literally worshipping the Shard Dominion. And that his motivations for doing something don't actually affect the magic in any way, literally dominating another person to destroy them and use them for power is something different.
 

 

 

I can then say that hey taking a power that pervades all things, and forcing it into a rigid symbol, that I can then control via mathmatical modifiers is very dominiony.

I'd question where you get your definition of Dominion and then point out that that similarity is shared by every single magic system that we know of.
 

 

 

Storms it is downright science, which the definition clearly states that too "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

Science: A discpline that you have to be very devoted to to get very far, not that I think that matters I just question why you actually bring it up.

 

 

But I will be told "well that isn't clear enough. we didn't see the elantians say it themselves" or "that isn't valid, they could just be having an off day" or "that doesn't work, that was galladon's interpretation". 

Yeah, this is what we call a strawman argument, you don't get to argue for me then pretend you win. I have so far only told you that your quotes were irrelevant, not that they were wrong. Aside from which the behaviour of the Elantrians is irrelevant, Allomancers don't tend to preserve things, Awakeners are no more giving than anyone else, Hemalurgy can be used for positive reasons, the Shards intent affects how the magic is accessed it doesn't brainwash all who use it.
 

 

 

I do not just snap my fingers, and these quotes appear. I have to do searches in the book, and online. it is work. I feel I have every right to ask the same amount of work of those who wish to counter what I state.

I've said this before and I'm really sorry but putting in more work doesn't give you any better of an argument, it is the quality of that work and what it actually produces that affects this discussion.
If it took me 10 hours to hunt down a quote that says that Devotion was splintered that doesn't mean that my argument is any better. That Devotion is splintered has nothing to do with this argument so how long that quote took me to find is irrelevant. I also feel like you're putting on a bit of a martyr complex here, no one is forcing you to spend hours doing anything that's your choice, if you could prove your point with a popular and well known piece of in-world information then that's what you should do. If a huge plot point of Elantris was discovering that Aons all came from the Dor then you don't need to find a hundred quotes on that, just state it, if I disagree I'll ask for clarification.
 

 

 

When you assert something to me, have something to back it up other than because you said so.

Please find one post where I've said that, just because I am using well known points and don't need to quote them that doesn't mean they're backed up. If anything it means they're even more substantiated.


Points you missed:
Aona:Aon connection
Aons being splinters of Devotion
Wyrns forsight
Wyrn worshipping Dominion
Skaze influence

[Lilamal]

It's possible that Endowment could have been on Sel for a while and added a couple elements of Awakening into the Dor

[Voidus]

It's possible that Endowment could have been on Sel for a while and added a couple elements of Awakening into the Dor

 

ZAS

After several more signings, I asked my other question. "Do people in the Comsere, besides Nalthis, have Breaths?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"No." He then signed a person's books, then said "To elaborate a little more, that's not to say they don't have a life force, because they do. But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive breaths though."

Still technically possible I suppose but I highly doubt it.

[natc]

I still get the sense that Path is arguing something that nobody has disagreed with or really ever brought up in the first place.