Dakhor Monks Using Twisted Awakening?

[Lilamal he/him]

So I was reading Elantris for the 17th time (No, it's not a joke. It's ironic, but it's not a joke) and I had a brilliant theory pop into my head. Are the Dakhor monks using a kind of twisted Awakening? Awakening bones does "strange things" to them apparently, so it could be possible. It would not be the same though, or it couldn't be used on living people. That could be why the people who give away their "Breath" in Elantris die and they don't in Warbreaker. Thoughts?

[tobar14 he/him]

So I was reading Elantris for the 17th time (No, it's not a joke. It's ironic, but it's not a joke) and I had a brilliant theory pop into my head. Are the Dakhor monks using a kind of twisted Awakening? Awakening bones does "strange things" to them apparently, so it could be possible. It would not be the same though, or it couldn't be used on living people. That could be why the people who give away their "Breath" in Elantris die and they don't in Warbreaker. Thoughts?

People give away their breath in Elantris?

[Lilamal he/him]

Or at least something similar. There would be two major differences I can think of right now:

1. Giving away your breath in Elantris would kill you instead of turning you into a Drab

2. Breath affects people instead of  inanimate objects

 

Someone (I think it was Vasher) said that Awakening bones did strange things to them, and I remember a WoB where Brandon said something similar as well

[Pathfinder]

Or at least something similar. There would be two major differences I can think of right now:

1. Giving away your breath in Elantris would kill you instead of turning you into a Drab

2. Breath affects people instead of  inanimate objects

 

Someone (I think it was Vasher) said that Awakening bones did strange things to them, and I remember a WoB where Brandon said something similar as well

Could you provide a quote and page number of where people give away breath in elantris? It was my understanding that the shape of the dakhor bones being infused with the dor is how they channel the powers. It is their version of the aons. But that was my interpretation. I do not recall there being any transfer of breath in Elantris

[Lilamal he/him]

It would be different than on Nalthis. You know when someone dies to transport people to a different place? I think that that is what happens when they give away their "Breath." This is a quote from the end of page 575 to the beginning of page 576.

 

Hrathen stood next to Dilaf, remaining perfectly still as instructed. They stood in a circle - fifty Dakhor, Sarene, and Hrathen, with one solitary monk in the center. The Dakhor raised their hands, and the men on either side of Hrathen placed a hand on his shoulder. His heart began to pound as the monks began to glow, the bone inscriptions beneath their skin shining. There was a bone jarring sensation, and Kae vanished around them.

They reappeared in an unfamiliar city. The houses lining the street were tall and connected, rather than separated and squat like those of Kae. They had arrived in Teod.

The group still stood in a circle, but Hrathen did not fail to notice that the man in the center was missing. Hrathen shuddered, images from his youth returning. The monk in the center had been fuel, his flesh and soul burned away - a sacrifice in return for the instantaneous transportation to Teod.

[tobar14 he/him]

It would be different than on Nalthis. You know when someone dies to transport people to a different place? I think that that is what happens when they give away their "Breath." This is a quote from the end of page 575 to the beginning of page 576.

I wouldn't call this awakening.  Awakening is the art of endowing objects with investiture, on Nalthis. You "awaken" something. 

 

In your example, nothing is being awakened.

 

I do think that the process of giving your breath to someone is similar to what happened in your quote.  Breath is just investiture, it takes investiture to perform a magic, and it seems like that Dakhor monk gave up/used his innate investiture to fuel the transportation.  I would not call that awakening, or even a twisted form of it.

 

Maybe they can only give up innate investiture (breath) easily on Nalthis because of the influence of Endowment.

[Pathfinder]

Yeah the quote pretty clearly states that the bones " began to glow, the bone inscriptions beneath their skin shining". I agree with tobar14 regarding the investiture, but otherwise it definitely does not look like breath to me. There is not even a hint of the term or implication of exhalation. 

[Ari he/him]

Yeah no. The Dakhor monks have their own magic, presumably one that draws upon the remnants of Dominion. (hence why monks have to sacrifice their underlings to teleport)

[Pathfinder]

Yeah no. The Dakhor monks have their own magic, presumably one that draws upon the remnants of Dominion. (hence why monks have to sacrifice their underlings to teleport)

All the magic systems on Sel draw from the Dor but manifest differently. It is all the same source. There are WoB on that

[Ari he/him]

All the magic systems on Sel draw from the Dor but manifest differently. It is all the same source. There are WoB on that

 

I possibly could have worded that better, I am aware that IF their magic draws external power to work, it will be drawing it from the Dor. But just because it's the Dor that's powering things doesn't mean that certain magic systems on Sel aren't sometimes associated with the shattered remnants of Devotion and/or Dominion. A close reading of Elantris suggests at least a couple of ways in which AonDor is associated with Devotion, for instance, and the Skaze seem to be focused on followers of Wyrn, which as Splinters of Dominion, would suggest their magic system is likely to be influenced by Dominion's Intent as well.

[Pathfinder]

I possibly could have worded that better, I am aware that IF their magic draws external power to work, it will be drawing it from the Dor. But just because it's the Dor that's powering things doesn't mean that certain magic systems on Sel aren't sometimes associated with the shattered remnants of Devotion and/or Dominion. A close reading of Elantris suggests at least a couple of ways in which AonDor is associated with Devotion, for instance, and the Skaze seem to be focused on followers of Wyrn, which as Splinters of Dominion, would suggest their magic system is likely to be influenced by Dominion's Intent as well.

I was referring to a WoB that stated the powers of devotion and dominion are one and made manifest in the dor. You cannot access only dominions portion vs devotions. It is merged together. It just manifests differently and may appear more dominiony or devotiony

[Ari he/him]

I was referring to a WoB that stated the powers of devotion and dominion are one and made manifest in the dor. You cannot access only dominions portion vs devotions. It is merged together. It just manifests differently and may appear more dominiony or devotiony

 

Which is all completely irrelevant to the influence of the Intents of Devotion and Dominion. If Preservation had Shattered in Mistborn, his Intent would still have influenced Allomancy, even if the power stopped coming from his Shard.

[Pathfinder]

Which is all completely irrelevant to the influence of the Intents of Devotion and Dominion. If Preservation had Shattered in Mistborn, his Intent would still have influenced Allomancy, even if the power stopped coming from his Shard.

That is a fault comparison as allomancy arose only of preservation. Feruchemy of Preservation and Ruin, and Hemalurgy from Ruin. The dor is a mixture of both dominion and devotion, so the users may use it in a way to be interpreted as one or the other, it is still from the same source, same intent. The splinters are a different matter. Elantians do not derive their power from a bond to a seon. You can gain powers from a bond with a seon much like spren, but being an elantian does not require you to bond a splinter. Also there are numerous examples of elantians that act very in the vein of dominion, yet by your view, they can't be elantians because they should be of devotion. Storms, even the act of drawing aons by forcing order and a rigid science to an amorphous power that pervades everything sounds very dominiony to me. That is an interpretation of how the power manifests, but has nothing to do with intent. It could be said that the dakhor monks are so devoted to their country that they would sacrifice their own lives for it. 

[Oversleep]

Intent of the Shard specifies how Investiture is obtained. So to become an Elantrian you have to be devoted. Dakhor runs on sacrifices - dominating another person. Perhaps other blends of Devotion and Dominion are possible. There was also that grand theory on Devotion and Dominion as identifying with your country as the cause of so many subsystems of Dor.

Surgebinding requires Oaths (and Bonds in the first place), Breaths are obtained by being endowed to you, Allomancy preserves yourself, Hemalurgy requires ruining... It's not about what it does or where energy comes from, but how you obtain it.

[Pathfinder]

Intent of the Shard specifies how Investiture is obtained. So to become an Elantrian you have to be devoted. Dakhor runs on sacrifices - dominating another person. Perhaps other blends of Devotion and Dominion are possible. There was also that grand theory on Devotion and Dominion as identifying with your country as the cause of so many subsystems of Dor.

Surgebinding requires Oaths (and Bonds in the first place), Breaths are obtained by being endowed to you, Allomancy preserves yourself, Hemalurgy requires ruining... It's not about what it does or where energy comes from, but how you obtain it.

So here are the WoB I am referring to:

 

JOSH

Are the Dahkor magics powered by the Dor?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

So no Dor, no magic period. I know we all agree on this, but this expands on the next point

 

LOCKE219 ()

When Dilaf is instructing the monks in how to kill the Elantrians, he mentions purification rites that need to be spoken. Do the rites have to do with the Dor? Or are they purely religious/ritualistic?

BRANDON SANDERSON ()

They are mostly ritualistic, but a lot of what the Dakhor do is strongly influenced by the Skaze. Read into that what you will.


So the Skaze is what influences the rituals and hierarchy that largely has nothing to do with how they access the Dor.

WINDRUNNER

Is the Dor made up of both Devotion and Dominion's power?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Dor's nature, and why it acts as it does, is in part related to this question.

 

Again this quote we largely agree on, just its application we differ, but that leads to the final quote

 

Is all magic on Sel influenced by both Dominion and Devotion?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Technically, yes. But they definitely have their themes and focuses. Influence is a tricky word, I'll warn you

 

This quote ties into the earlier one. The Skaze influence the hierarchy and how the monks think they have to act in order to access the dor. They push the sense of dominion, but that does not mean the power system that draws on the dor is more dominion than devotion. Its like mixing equal parts yellow and red food coloring in a bottle of water, and then claiming as you pour out the orange into two separate glasses that are shaped different that you can selectively have more red in one, or more yellow in the other. 

 

edit: changed the color of what i wrote between the quotes to prevent confusion, and clarify which is my comments and which is the quote

Edited February 23, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Voidus]

I think the point is that the source of power is not necessarily the origin of the magic. In feruchemy the source of power is the feruchemist, not either Shard but the magic itself comes from the Shards.

On Sel while the Dor is what powers all the magic it is possible that the origin is from the interaction of one particular Shard with the planet. Honors magic worked both before and after being Splintered so it's certainly not impossible.

[Pathfinder]

I think the point is that the source of power is not necessarily the origin of the magic. In feruchemy the source of power is the feruchemist, not either Shard but the magic itself comes from the Shards.

On Sel while the Dor is what powers all the magic it is possible that the origin is from the interaction of one particular Shard with the planet. Honors magic worked both before and after being Splintered so it's certainly not impossible.

Not sure I fully understand what you are trying to say. 

[Voidus]

That just because the Dor is an inseparable combination of both powers and Aons draw on that power doesn't mean that AonDor can't be of Devotion. How a magic system is powered and how it originates are two separate issues. You can power an Awakened object with Stormlight, that doesn't mean that Awakening must secretly be some mix of Honor and Endowment.

[Pathfinder]

That just because the Dor is an inseparable combination of both powers and Aons draw on that power doesn't mean that AonDor can't be of Devotion. How a magic system is powered and how it originates are two separate issues. You can power an Awakened object with Stormlight, that doesn't mean that Awakening must secretly be some mix of Honor and Endowment.

But can you be a natural born Rosharian and awaken an object from the start with with only stormlight?

[Voidus]

But can you be a natural born Rosharian and awaken an object from the start with with only stormlight?

Probably, Hemalurgy among other things could give it pretty easily. But what's your point? Dakhor monks are still Selish.

(To clarify I don't agree that they use awakening, only Nalthians have Breath, we have WoB on that)

[Pathfinder]

Probably, Hemalurgy among other things could give it pretty easily. But what's your point? Dakhor monks are still Selish.

(To clarify I don't agree that they use awakening, only Nalthians have Breath, we have WoB on that)

Without hemalurgy, can a natural born Rosharian without a nahel bond, use stormlight to awaken? The answer is no. if the object is already awakened, the stormlight can be used as fuel to sustain it, but the object is still connected to Endowment. An Elantian can theoretically use stormlight to fuel their aons, but they are still an Elantian due to devotion and dominion. So the monks are still using powers of devotion and dominion. The dor is both the source and the fuel. 

[Voidus]

Without hemalurgy, can a natural born Rosharian without a nahel bond, use stormlight to awaken? The answer is no. if the object is already awakened, the stormlight can be used as fuel to sustain it, but the object is still connected to Endowment. An Elantian can theoretically use stormlight to fuel their aons, but they are still an Elantian due to devotion and dominion. So the monks are still using powers of devotion and dominion. The dor is both the source and the fuel. 

That's kind of exactly my point, you can have the source of your powers from one place and the power from another. Heck AonDor literally has the name of Devotions Shardholder in it.

[Pathfinder]

That's kind of exactly my point, you can have the source of your powers from one place and the power from another. Heck AonDor literally has the name of Devotions Shardholder in it.

But in the Dor's case it is both

[Voidus]

But in the Dor's case it is both

Why? How? We have never, to my knowledge, been told that the Dor is the source of all Selish magic. Just that it is the power that drives it. We're not for instance sure what if any magic predates the splintering of Aona and Skai's Shards.

SH spoilers

Though certain events and later interviews suggest that some Elantrians may be far older than we think.

[Pathfinder]

Why? How? We have never, to my knowledge, been told that the Dor is the source of all Selish magic. Just that it is the power that drives it. We're not for instance sure what if any magic predates the splintering of Aona and Skai's Shards.

SH spoilers

Though certain events and later interviews suggest that some Elantrians may be far older than we think.

I have showed the quote that shows dakhor is Dor, there is another quote that says forging is Dor, do I need to get a quote from brandon that states each one is Dor for you to be satisfied?