Alloy of Law Map Question

[smoonHooch]

I have a question about the Elendel Basin map found here:

http://isaacstewart.com/images/mb/ALLOY_MAP_1_WORLD-webres.png

I was looking at the Longitude and Latitude labels, and comparing them to the Steel Alphabet found on the Coppermind Wiki. The lines of longidue make sense, they run as follows from left to right: [ 1, Lesarium, 1, 2, 3 ] with Lesarium marking the city of Elendel. This makes sense that they would mark their capital as their own prime meridian.

 

Where I get confused is the lines of latitude. They read as follows from top to bottom:
[Atium, Malatium, Gold, Electum, Chromium, Nicrosil]. If we swap Chromium and Bendalloy for Atium and Malatium (assuming this map was using the archaic system of numerals) that gives us a list reading down of [9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14]. I would have expected their globe to be mapped out similar to ours, with the equator at 0 and ascending numbers as you approach the poles. But this numbering makes me think that either that is not the case, or Elendel is in fact in the Southern Hemisphere. 

 

Did anyone else notice this? any other theories?

[Oversleep]

Maybe the poles are 0 and the order is reversed - ascending as you approach the equator.

[Young Bard he/him]

Well, they haven't actually documented the entire globe yet - they only know it's spherical because it's in the Words of Founding. It's not surprising they don't have a modern cartography system.

[Kaymyth she/her]

Well, they haven't actually documented the entire globe yet - they only know it's spherical because it's in the Words of Founding. It's not surprising they don't have a modern cartography system.

 

Indeed; mapping one's latitudinal degrees in relation to the equator first requires knowing where the equator is.  Modern Scadrians just haven't explored far enough to get a real idea of the general geography of the planet.

 

I mean, check the scale of the map - their known world, including the Elendel Basin and the explored areas of the Roughs, is altogether about the size of Texas.  Texas.  I mean, Texas is big, but it ain't THAT big.

[Alfa he/him]

I guess, Elendel is indeed in the Southern Hemisphere: the proof of that - the northern Roughs seem to be Eastern-Afrika-like, while Elendel seems more Mediterranean.

[natc]

The Well of Ascension was magnetic north, so I find that unlikely. Some of the land formations in the Empire are still visible on the maps, so they haven't moved too far.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Magnetic north in Scadrial =/= the same hemispherical effects the north has on earth- depends on orbits

[smoonHooch]

I feel like the fact that they have assigned a prime meridian makes me think that they do have something resembling a modern cartographic system. But it makes sense that they would not have pinpointed the equator, since they haven't done much exploring outside of the continent. So let's assume that Elendel is in the northern hemisphere.

 

New personal theory! The lines of latitude represent how far south you are from the Well of Ascension. Hear me out as I show my work. I compared the map of the Elendel Basin with that of the world map from Mistborn Era 1 (http://isaacstewart.com/images/mb/mb02_WORLD_MAP-webres.jpg) to judge distances. According to the Basin map, the distance from Bilming to the coast directly north is approximately one latitude unit (24 pixels in GIMP). Looking at the World map, we can compare that distance to the distance from Bilming to the Terris Mountains (historical location of the Well). We find that the distance from Bilming to the southernmost and northernmost points of the Terris Mountains is 11.5 latitude units (275 pixels) and 14.5 latitude units (347 pixels) respectively. Since Bilming is at latitude 13, I think it would make sense that they are indexing based on the distance from the Well of Ascension. This would also be logical since the Well of Ascension is Magnetic North, so it would be relatively easy to find it in absolute terms and index your maps based on it.

[DeadFencer]

I don't know if this helps but I do know that, based on how the symbols for metals appear at the start of each chapter, the Scadrailians may use base 16 math.

[smoonHooch]

@SafestPear
Yeah, I'm aware of the base 16 number system thing. I was toying with a theory that as a result of that, there would be 256 lines of longitude across the entire globe, and trying to justify it by calculating the radius of the planet using the map scale and the number of lines of longitude. But I don't think we have enough details about the latitude system or the globe as a whole to make a strong argument for it.

Edited February 21, 2016 by smoonHooch

[Oversleep]

@SafestPear

Yeah, I'm aware of the base 16 number system thing. I was toying with a theory that as a result of that, there would be 256 lines of longitude across the entire globe, and trying to justify it by calculating the radius of the planet using the map scale and the number of lines of longitude. But I don't think we have enough details about the latitude system or the globe as a whole to make a strong argument for it.

The problem is that base metals make up numbers from 1 to 16. Base 16 is a system in which symbols represent numbers from 0 to 15. Base number is always "10" in its system. So if we have numbers from 1 to 16 and then we invent a symbol for 0, we end up with base 17.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Oversleep

[smoonHooch]

The problem is that base metals make up numbers from 1 to 16. Base 16 is a system in which symbols represent numbers from 0 to 15. Base number is always "10" in its system. So if we have numbers from 1 to 16 and then we invent a symbol for 0, we end up with base 17.

 

Someone with more knowledge of number systems than I have already deduced the number system in a way that appears pretty elegant in this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1157-glyphs-as-a-number-system/page-2?hl=%2Bjapanese+%2Bnumber#entry19658

 

TL;DR is that it's derived from the Japanese style of number representation. You're right that it's not stictly Big-Endian base 16, it more closely resembles roman numerals than anything we compute with. 

Edited February 21, 2016 by smoonHooch

[Oversleep]

Someone with more knowledge of number systems than I have already deduced the number system in a way that appears pretty elegant in this thread: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/1157-glyphs-as-a-number-system/page-2?hl=%2Bjapanese+%2Bnumber#entry19658

 

TL;DR is that it's derived from the Japanese style of number representation. You're right that it's not stictly Big-Endian base 16, it more closely resembles roman numerals than anything we compute with. 

I suspected it may work similarly to roman numerals, thanks for the link

[Kaymyth she/her]

I actually find it doubtful that Scadrial uses a base 16 numbering system.  If you're thinking that they're basing it off of the Allomantic metals, well, remember that in the Final Empire they only had 10 metals on the chart.  So if the numbering system was based off of Allomancy, it would've been base 10 anyway.

 

Incidentally, humans tend to use a base 10 numbering system because that's how many fingers we have on our hands.  The earliest people learned to count on their hands.  There's your useless trivia for the day.

[Oversleep]

I actually find it doubtful that Scadrial uses a base 16 numbering system.  If you're thinking that they're basing it off of the Allomantic metals, well, remember that in the Final Empire they only had 10 metals on the chart.  So if the numbering system was based off of Allomancy, it would've been base 10 anyway.

 

Incidentally, humans tend to use a base 10 numbering system because that's how many fingers we have on our hands.  The earliest people learned to count on their hands.  There's your useless trivia for the day.

Tell that to Sumerians.

I actually thought that maybe they used some variation of base 8 (since there were 8 metals + 2 higher), but then I remembered that 16 was found everywhere in the mythology.

The 16 symbols part I'm basing on the coppermind, they have letters and numbers linked to the symbols. Check out "Steel alphabet".

[Kaymyth she/her]

Tell that to Sumerians.

I actually thought that maybe they used some variation of base 8 (since there were 8 metals + 2 higher), but then I remembered that 16 was found everywhere in the mythology.

The 16 symbols part I'm basing on the coppermind, they have letters and numbers linked to the symbols. Check out "Steel alphabet".

 

The Sumerians were weird. 

 

And...well, maybe the Scadrians are, too. It just seems odd to me, but I'll admit that's an entirely subjective thing on my part.  So it might just be me. 

 

Of course, they also use the same symbols for both numbers *and* letters, because that's not confusing at all.

[Voidus]

The Sumerians were weird. 

 

And...well, maybe the Scadrians are, too. It just seems odd to me, but I'll admit that's an entirely subjective thing on my part.  So it might just be me. 

 

Of course, they also use the same symbols for both numbers *and* letters, because that's not confusing at all.

They were awesome, 10 is a really dumb base system. Case in point: It's so awesome that we still use base 60 for time and angles.

[natc]

Well, for units we do.

Writing in base 60 is a pain.

[Oversleep]

Well, for units we do.

Writing in base 60 is a pain.

It's only a pain because you're used to using base 10 for your whole life.

I would prefer base 12, it carries most of the benefits of base 60 (easy division by 2,3,4 and 6) and it has way less symbols.

[Alfa he/him]

In the Final Empire they had a 10-based system or a derivative of it: When they noticed the rule of 16, they talked a about exactly sixteen percent - and percentages only make sense in a 10-based system. In most other system 16% would be just a random number.

[smoonHooch]

True, but there is evidence that after the Catecandre they adopted some kind of roman numerals style system that had characters for the number [1] - [16], at least for ceremonial purposes. Peep the chapter headings in AoL, SS, or BoM.