Do I Still Think Harmony Is Messed Up?

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Yes, I still haven't seen anything that contradicts my theory that Harmony lied when TenSoon asked if he ever took control of Bleeder.

 

Let's recap. Harmony's motive throughout Shadows of Self is to get Wax to stop Paalm from plunging pretty much the entire Elend Basin into chaos and destruction with her staged revolution. Harmony absolutely needed Wax to focus on this goal.

 

So what lengths was Harmony willing to go to to ensure that? 

 

Well, at the very least, he withheld information. We know he did not tell Wax who exactly it was he was hunting because he foresaw that Wax wouldn't be able to stop her if he knew, and that would cause a disaster. We also know that Harmony is not sorry about manipulating Wax into this position.

 

So, given all that, what do you think Harmony would do when Wax explicitly asks, through TenSoon, this question:

 

from Shadows of Self:

"Did Bleeder first leave because Harmony tried to take control of her at some point? Did that set her off?"

 

Remember, you are Harmony. You have plans for Wax in the future and you need him to be cooperative. You know you are already skating on "thin ice" by not telling him he is hunting his wife.

 

Pretend for a moment, regardless of your opinion of what happened, that Harmony DID force control on Lessie and did shove her into the way of Wax's shot.

 

Would you admit it, here?

 

Or would you tell a choice lie, so that your relationship with your chosen agent may become strained, but not irrevocably broken? (Harmony not telling Wax that he was hunting his wife can be explained away, rationalized, as we see at the end of Bands of Mourning. But admitting to "killing" her, which directly caused her insanity, therefore being responsible for the entire mess during Shadows of Self that required Wax kill her for real? That's another thing entirely.)

 

Remember that Sazed and Preservation are not above telling a crucial lie for the greater good (Saving Vin and Elden from Luthadel's impending descrution, and making a deal with Ruin while intending to break it all along, respectively). Sazed has existed for some 300 years with near omniscience, experiencing and watching every grieving spouse that ever lived during that time. Most of them probably eventually get over it enough to live functional lives. Certainly someone a strong as Wax could. So in the grand scheme of Harmony's master plan, was a little grief for Wax that big of an issue? Probably not. Was he sorry to have to put him through that? Yes. Would that stop him from doing what had to be done? Lets go to the book:

 

from Bands of Mourning:

"I am sorry," Harmony said with a gentle voice, "for your pain. I am sorry for what you did, what we had to do. But I am not sorry for making you do what had to be done."

 

But if Harmony did shove her into the bullet, wouldn't that mean he knew she'd go insane and cause the mess in Shadows of Self? Not necessarily. Harmony has near omniscience, but he cannot see the machinations of this outside influence, represented by "Trell", the rusted spike, and the red haze around Sacdrial. Did he know that the grief from losing her life with her husband would make Lessie susceptible to "Trell"'s influence? No, he couldn't, because he has no insight as to that force's plans or reach.

 

From his limited viewpoint (which he couldn't know was limited), it was the best option. Paalm wouldn't actually be dead because a bullet to the face wouldn't stop a kandra, and Wax would go to where he needed to be (the City) to play a bigger role in future events.

Edited February 8, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[natc]

Well, sure, nothing contradicts you, but nothing really helps prove your point either other than extrapolations from his incongruous personality.

He also hasn't been caught lying yet. Accusing someone without evidence is a bit much.

[Observer]

Assuming he did that, and it's a stretch given how much he values free will, the logic still holds. Considering how bad things could have gotten if the Set had succeeded in AoL or in BoM, either with the Bands or with the airship, the world would be pretty screwed. Causing grief to two people and killing one murderer seems like a small price to pay for saving the world.

 

Still, given that Harmony seems more the type to ask than to take control, it feels like a bit of a stretch.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

I can't fault Sazed. It is manipulative, but he is trying to protect an entire planet. He made the decision with the more favorable outcome, that he could see.

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Natc: Remind me to get back to you in two days.

 

I should also have begun this with a recap of exactly why I think Harmony had to have been the one to cause Lessie's death. I think the way that scene was written, it seemed obvious (at least to me) that the jerking motion that put her in the way of the bullet had supernaturally perfect timing.

 

My supposition is that, if that jerk seemed too odd to be a natural occurance, then rather than Bloody Tan having whatever metalborn power(s) that were necessary to perform such a maneuver and then deliberately let get himself killed, it instead makes much simpler sense to say that Harmony took control for a bare instant and, using godlike foresight, shoved her in the way of the bullet.

Edited February 8, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

Natc: Remind me to get back to you in two days.

 

I should also have begun this with a recap of exactly why I think Harmony had to have been the one to cause Lessie's death. I think the way that scene was written, it seemed obvious (at least to me) that the jerking motion that put her in the way of the bullet had supernaturally perfect timing.

 

My supposition is that, if that jerk seemed too odd to be a natural occurance, then rather than Bloody Tan having whatever metalborn power(s) that were necessary to perform such a maneuver and then deliberately let get himself killed, it instead makes much simpler sense to say that Harmony took control for a bare instant and, using godlike foresight, shoved her in the way of the bullet.

It makes sense. But a gods gotta do what a gods gotta do. And like you said before, she's a Kandra. Its not like it would really even hurt her, let alone kill her. And he's not omniscient, as demonstrated by him not knowing what is attacking Scad. So I think he did what any rational being would do, and chose the path of least destruction and chaos.

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Oh, I'm not arguing that he's wrong....

 

 

Just messed up!

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

Oh, I'm not arguing that he's wrong....

 

 

Just messed up!

Lol OK cool. In that case I agree with you. I also argued that its pretty damnation cold to do that to someone. I was almost not cool with Wax forgiving him, but then Wax turned all Super Saiyan lvl 4, and I just let it go to enjoy show.

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Well, I think Harmony makes a decent case for "I didn't tell you you were hunting your insane wife because you wouldn't have finished the job, and you would hate yourself for letting her stay insane or having someone that didn't love her put her out of her misery"

 

But I still think he's hiding the fact that he shoved her into Wax's bullet way back in Alloy of Law's prologue.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Or perhaps as a talented Kandra, she moved herself into the path of the bullet. I'm with Harmony here; don't get me wrong, it was a sucky thing he had to do but I get whyt he did it. S'easy to judge from a human perspective as we aren't cursed with his knowledge, and the whole situation could have been avoided if Paalm had done as originally (assuming Harmony did this anyway) instructed and gotten Wax to go back when it was first mentioned (whenever that was exactly)

[NovaSeeker he/him]

So you think that she jerked herself in the way, and then fell to pieces about losing Wax afterward? I suppose that's a possible explanation. I can even buy her knowing exactly when to jerk because she was the one to give the queue to Wax to fire.

 

I just don't think she'd go as crazy as she did if it was her decision to do it. She went after Harmony with a divine vengeance. Although maybe it was because she hated herself for doing it and Harmony was a convenient scapegoat, convincing herself that he had to have taken control and moved her, because she could never hurt Wax that way.

 

...Okay. I'll say that's plausible, probably more likely than Harmony lying....

 

 

but I still think he did it. >: (

Edited February 8, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[natc]

Not unusual for people to not hold themselves responsible for despicable things if they feel they were acting under orders from another. In fact people actually tend to do that even if they would never dream of it on their own.

Harmony in all likelihood would probably have found that moment as a rather convenient moment for Paalm to get shot and have Wax leave, but he supposedly didn't physically take over her, or so he claims.

So he also claims, Paalm passed on to the beyond actually asking Harmony to take care of Wax on the way out, so it would seem if Harmony is honest (no proof to the contrary) she actually doesn't really mind nearly as much as she seemed when she was driven mad. She was also much more coherent while short a spike than ReLuur was, so . . . I don't really trust that spike of hers.

[Pathfinder]

So this was my line of reasoning in another thread on this board, so I'll copy paste because it covers how I feel about the matter. Then I will add some replies.

 

The entire conversation was Harmony saying that he tries not to interfere, which is shown in the fact that he did not stop Lessie and Wax from falling in love with each other. Lessie was originally supposed to watch over Wax and make sure he doesn't die. Harmony never ordered her to seduce him. In fact when they fall in love Harmony suggests against it, but again does not force them. Finally Harmony wants Wax to go back to Elendel but again, does not force. There is WoB that Bloody Tan was not controlled by Harmony. So Lessie's death was not arranged by Harmony. Finally the only time he considered controlling Lessie was when she became a homicidal maniac. If anything it is Harmony's non-interference that Wax has an issue with, to which Harmony replies asking Wax how much is he to interfere? Where is the line? Down that path leads to ultimate control and loss of free will. A point which Wax eventually relents to. Finally Harmony points out that had Wax known it was Lessie, he would not have been able to pull the trigger, the very action that after this conversation, Wax admits had to be done. It is then Harmony attempts to heal Wax's sense of self guilt and pain over blaming himself for Lessie's death. For when Wax had blamed Harmony, he was in fact blaming himself for not being able to figure out some other way to save her. For her not to die. So at least in my opinion, Harmony has nothing to apologize for.

 

So now to expand on this. I feel if Harmony was willing to control Lessie for her to get shot and lie about it after, then two things by extension, first why ever stop controlling her? He could have controlled her to tell Wax to go back, and then removed her from the picture. Then he would have had a fully functioning tool, with no PTSD regarding shooting people. The whole Bloody Tan situation would have never happened then. Second, if he has no compunctions about controlling someone and then lying about it, why not take the same steps Ruin did and get Wax spiked (a la Spook style) to be able to control him directly? Why all the hoops that still result in Wax resisting? Sazed can see the future, and said this was the best of possible outcomes. If Sazed was that duplicitious I do not think it would be a stretch for him to accomplish his goals with a greater hands on approach and get an even better outcome from his perspective. So that is why I do not feel Harmony is as manipulative as some have suggested. He is just a person with a lot of power trying to do the best he can with the tools he has. 

 

edit: thought of something to add. Let us take a look at the characters we are basing our information on. We have Bleeder, who is missing one of her original spikes that we have on good authority from multiple characters that (not just Harmony's), that the absence of alters and unhinges the mind. Now let us look at Sazed, a character we know through the original trilogy, and we meet again in the new series. Which seems more likely to have a trustworthy testimony. An unhinged psychotic that has murdered as it suits her with anarchy as her end goal? Or that a character we have viewed as stalwart, loving, and working for the good of the many, to the point that he has let other religions exist despite easily being able to rewrite history as it suits him, has been changed so dramatically by the intents of both shards that he would lie about his actions just to accomplish his own goals? 

 

edit 2: finally what evidence would convince you that Harmony did not lie? Because as I think about it, nothing could theoretically conclusively prove it unless Sanderson wrote a new scene directly from Lessie's perspective during that moment

Edited February 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[NovaSeeker he/him]

I'll point out, again, that both Preservation and Sazed have proven to be duplicitous in pivotal situations of great importance, always for the greater good.

 

And now Sazed has a dark force of entropy and death that is influencing him, a force that, previously, had no compunctions against lying to everybody and everything.

 

As for why Harmony doesn't just act like Ruin all the time, if he can? Well, because he's not all Ruin. 

 

Basically I don't trust Sazed to be Sazed anymore. I'm worried about what the Ruin part of him is influencing him to do. He was already willing to lie before when it was for what he thought was the "greater good". Now that he has the literal embodiment of destruction influencing his thoughts, would he also be willing to destroy the life of one of his chosen servants, who he would normally let act as she wishes but in this situation it is too important to let her do so?

 

I think he would.

 

(Also I never thought Bloody Tan was controlled by Harmony, so I can't speak to that theory.)

[CaptainRyan he/him]

Without either a WoB or, as Pathfinder suggested, a scene from Lessie's PoV during the AoL prequel we will never know. While I, personally, do not think Sazed controlled Paalm in that instance it would not be too big of a stretch for Brandon to use that as an example of the influence Shards have on their Vessel (shardholder).

[Pathfinder]

I only see you give only one instance where Sazed lied. Preservation does not count as he was controlled by Leras, who was a different individual. Sazed's one lie was to preserve his friends lives which I think is a stretch to then say if he lied then, he will always lie when he needs to accomplish something. All other times we have seen Sazed, he has been honestly and forth right. Again judge the character by their actions. Bleeder/Lessie was unhinged, and murdering innocent people. Sazed could have made a monotheistic religion like the Lord Ruler. He could have altered the entire history to suit him. Instead he allowed people to worship as they wished, and did his best to not intervene. I think it is far more plausible to take Harmony at his word than Bleeder. But in the end since we cannot conclusively prove one way or the other, I respect your opinion and will not push further. I now know how you feel having read Bands of Mourning, so my curiosity is sated lol. 

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Pathfinder, I respect that you disagree with me, and your opinions. But I feel the need to debate further the points you just brought up, so allow me to do so, and do not feel that you cannot also continue the debate. I like healthy, friendly debate.

 

 

 

For Sazed and Preservation's duplicity, my examples are not about quantity, but quality. (And I do think it was the Shard that influenced Leras to scheme around the deal with Ati. By this time, Leras was already influenced by the Shard he held, enough that he couldn't directly fight Ati because doing so would not fit with Preservation's Intent. But apparently breaking your word in order to ultimately Preserve? That's fine.)

 

In either case, both Sazed and Preservation are shown to lie. Do they do it often? I'll grant you, no, they do not.

 

But do they do it when it's really freaking important? Evidence shows that, yes, they do.

[Pathfinder]

Pathfinder, I respect that you disagree with me, and your opinions. But I feel the need to debate further the points you just brought up, so allow me to do so, and do not feel that you cannot also continue the debate. I like healthy, friendly debate.

 

 

 

For Sazed and Preservation's duplicity, my examples are not about quantity, but quality. (And I do think it was the Shard that influenced Leras to scheme around the deal with Ati. By this time, Leras was already influenced by the Shard he held, enough that he couldn't directly fight Ati because doing so would not fit with Preservation's Intent. But apparently breaking your word in order to ultimately Preserve? That's fine.)

 

In either case, both Sazed and Preservation are shown to lie. Do they do it often? I'll grant you, no, they do not.

 

But do they do it when it's really freaking important? Evidence shows that, yes, they do.

Lol no worries. Ok let us go on that premise on quality over quantity. In both Sazed's as well as Preservation's cases, their lie involved sacrificing themselves. In Sazed's case where the sacrifice would have extended beyond himself, he openly explained the situation to everyone involved who would be sacrificed thus giving them the option to flee. They all chose to stay. The lie you are proposing is Sazed/Preservation sacrificing someone else, which is not in theme with their previous lies. If that was so, Harmony would have asked Lessie to sacrifice herself, and only have done so if she voluntarily chose to. 

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Ah, but Harmony is not just Sazed/Preservation.

 

There is a LOT of Ruin in him. (You could say, there is the sum total of ALL of Ruin in him.)

 

Is he completely Ruin? Would he assume direct control of all kandra and kolos and heavily spiked people all the times? No, because he's Harmony, not Ruin.

 

But he DOES have a dark side. And I AM worried about what that's done to Sazed.

 

(Also remember that Preservation was not above killing one sixteenth of one sixteenth of any given population that was exposed to full-strength Mist.)

Edited February 8, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Pathfinder]

Ah, but Harmony is not just Sazed/Preservation.

 

There is a LOT of Ruin in him. (You could say, there is the sum total of ALL of Ruin in him.)

 

Is he completely Ruin? Would he assume direct control of all kandra and kolos and heavily spiked people all the times? No, because he's Harmony, not Ruin.

 

But he DOES have a dark side. And I AM worried about what that's done to Sazed.

As has been pointed out in other threads, Ruin is not necessarily bad. It is entropy. Yes the shards affect what your priority is, but I feel like you are giving them too much "personality". How much of Ruin was Ruin, and how much was it Ati manifesting his own overconfidence in trying to accomplish ruin? Time and again when we see Ati, we see him being cocky, and acting all knowing. Based on that I would feel maybe part of why he took Ruin, was because he was overconfident in his ability to resist the shards influence. Harmony referenced Wax as of Ruin because he ends life. It is also why he explains why he does not interfere as much as Wax would like in preventing death. Which this leads us to the same issue I have with Lessie/Bleeder. She is upset because she feels manipulated by Harmony. When it is shown he had minimal interference, she says well he could have stopped the bad things from happening. So he is a bad god for doing too much, but he is a bad god for doing too little. So which is it? Can't have both. Finally he is called Harmony because he is balancing the two intents. I do not view preservation as an angel on one shoulder, and ruin a devil on the other shoulder of Sazed. I view it more as, hey this is an action I want to take and preservation and ruin poke me showing that during that goal, some things need to continue, and some things need to end. Such is the universe. But I do not feel it is Ruin whispering "hey, lets screw with Wax's mind, so it degrades like all things should. Lets ruin his brain, and get him to destroy the Set. Lie to him. Yes Ruin it allllll".

Edited February 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[NovaSeeker he/him]

We know that Ati was a kind and generous man. We can only surmise that the Shard changed him into the deceitful psycopath he was.

 

Further, I do not think of Ruin as a devil on Sazed's shoulder. I think of Ruin giving Sazed the... moral capacity to make "destructive" decisions. 

 

Let me give an example: How far would you go to save a child's life? Would you tell a lie? Would you steal? Would you hurt someone? Would you permanently maim someone? Would you kill someone? I think having the force of Ruin be a part of you makes you more able to say yes to more of those questions. Answering yes to them becomes less "morally painful" to you.

 

Do I think that Harmony was influenced to destroy Wax's mental and emotional well being for shits and giggles? No, I think Harmony was influenced to accept the destruction of Wax's mental and emotional well being as being necessary for the greater good.

Edited February 8, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Pathfinder]

We know that Ati was a kind and generous man. We can only surmise that the Shard changed him into the deceitful psycopath he was.

That is from the writer of the letter's perspective. How do we know that individual is not lying or was deceived by Ati before he picked up the shard? And I did not saying he was not kind nor generous. You can be kind, generous and prideful. Ati could have though his hubris thought he could hold back Ruin's influence of entropy. To expand on it, lets say he is very good at being kind and generous. Like Breeze. He is very generous with his Soothing, helping people get through hard times. If he was not hiding the kind of person he was others would think him as such. We know he is a kind and generous person who is also cocky and full of himself as well as manipulative. That does not mean Ruin is manipulative, just that when held by someone like Breeze, he would be cocky, full of himself, and manipulative to accomplish decaying something. 

[NovaSeeker he/him]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. I think it is far too early to suggest literally the only thing we know about Ati pre-influence wasn't indicative of what he was actually like.

 

What you say COULD be the case, but I think it's grasping at straws. There's too little to support it. Hoid's letter says that Ruin twisted him, and without any other evidence to suggest it, there's no reason to assume this isn't true.

Edited February 8, 2016 by NovaSeeker

[Pathfinder]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. I think it is far too early to suggest literally the only thing we know about Ati pre-influence wasn't indicative of what he was actually like.

 

What you say COULD be the case, but I think it's grasping at straws. There's too little to support it. Hoid's letter says that Ruin twisted him, and without any other evidence to suggest it, there's no reason to assume this isn't true.

We have WoB that say the shards themselves are neither good nor evil, they just hold an intent. 

 

I do not believe those in the letter were lying, I was just illustrating a point. Prove to me they were telling the truth. You can't. Just like i cannot definitively prove Harmony was telling the truth. However we certainly know a lot more about Harmony, TenSoon, Bleeder, Leras, and Ati than we do about the writer of the letter. So by that logic, grasping at straws would be assuming the writer of the letter is telling the truth while assuming Sazed is lying.

 

But as you said, this really comes down to each others opinions, so please do not take this as me saying you are definitively wrong or right. Just responding to the points you presented. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by Pathfinder

[NovaSeeker he/him]

Weeell, I think it's a bit different. I've been able to support my claim about Harmony's falsehood with precedent and at least some modicum of logic. We can disagree on whether that logic is correct, but there are facts that can be drawn on to support it.

 

The question of what Ati was really like as a person before taking up the Shard, though, has only one source, Hoid's Letter. To claim that only source is invalid means we know NOTHING about Ati's personality pre-Shard, so no arguements can be made either way.

Edited February 8, 2016 by NovaSeeker