Lounge

[TKWade he/him]

@Mandamon I'm not 100% sure what's happening, but it sounds awesome whatever it is - possible book deal? Either way, congratz!

[kais]

5 minutes ago, TKWade said:

I'm not 100% sure what's happening

He got some good likes at a pitch event, which means his query will skip the slush pile for a few places and actually be read. It's a good helping hand up to getting signed by an agent/editor.

I'm excited because I got my book deal through a pitch contest as well, so I'm sort of reliving the excitement of this time.

[TKWade he/him]

1 minute ago, kaisa said:

He got some good likes at a pitch event, which means his query will skip the slush pile for a few places and actually be read

Oooo that sounds like funsies  good job @Mandamon !
 

[Mandamon he/him]

8 hours ago, TKWade said:

Oooo that sounds like funsies

Thanks!

In an update, I've gotten three likes on one book, and now a like came through on a completely different book I tweeted as well, so now I need to get that query ready to go too.

Not Freaking Out.

Freaking Out.

 O_o

 

[neongrey]

Wowie, doing good.

[kais]

Dear RE

It has been three weeks since our last fridging incident. I don't know how to celebrate, except by sharing this link that was shared with me, and to say thank you all, for being awesome.

Edited because I fail at hyperlinks, apparently.

Edited a second time because I made a meme!

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by kaisa

[Vreeah]

Hah, Kaisa, that link goes directly back here.

Unless that was intentional and I'm missing a symbolic gesture of some sort.

[kais]

@Vreeah Hopefully works now. Sorry! I blame the fact that I was on a treadmill at the time.

[neongrey]

Oooh, look at you, all lah-de-dah and exercising lol

[Mandamon he/him]

Ha--that's awesome.

[Robinski he/him]

18 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Not Freaking Out.

Freaking Out.

O_o

I am smiling from ear to ear

[neongrey]

Here's a pretty good twitter thread about handling transgender characters; it's in large part aimed at transgender writers but this is some very broad-strokes stuff that I think is good to consider.

[Hobbit]

Hmmm thanks for posting that thread.  I think the hesitation to mention that a character is trans comes from the fear that it will come off as sensational when it's not supposed to be.  But I think that's controlled more by how you write it than whether or not you try.

[neongrey]

I'd say it's worth mentioning that treating that sort of thing like 'a reveal' is particularly a bad idea with trans characters because that sort of attitude throughout society is what leads to a lot of violence against trans people.

I dunno, from what I have seen is that the people who are most inclined to not do the thing (in re any form of inclusion) are generally the people who treat their own norm as a default and who do the least actual research into the realities of other people's lives.

Always gonna be people upset on the stuff you get wrong; it's a lot more about how you respond to the upset.

[kais]

Interesting read, @neongrey. Thanks for posting!

I've been watching debates on Twitter recently about what constitutes 'ownvoices'. Some are saying that the book is only ownvoices if the main character has the minority status of the writer. I have mixed feelings about this--not that ownvoices shouldn't relate to the writer's minority--clearly it should, but that they only way to showcase that diversity is through the MC. For instance, I would consider the Ard series ownvoices, but my main character is cis. But the world is nonbinary, and some of the POV characters are nonbinary.

I dunno. Surely flexibility is allowed when encouraging minorities to input their experiences into written works. To push us all the MC issues just seems... forced somehow. 

[aeromancer he/him]

And here I thought you were just a really big fan of Asimov's The Gods Themselves...

On a more serious note, I would only apply the 'ownvoices' tag to someone who experienced whatever they are writing, as I understand the term. I'm not convince that any fiction should be considered 'ownvoices', if 'ownvoices' refers to the proper standpoint on what to write about topics. Otherwise, fiction is fiction. I can name a hundred topics I can't have a realistic viewpoint on, but I don't have a realistic viewpoint on a sword-wielding magical protagonist. A sufficiently good fiction author should have the toolkit to write behind any fictional character - but acknowledge that it's fiction. If you feel the need to express your view from your perspective - do it! Nothing bad happens when viewpoints are shared. But please, don't make things up and express it through someone you aren't. I have a strong view on this, but I have a good reason for having it.

Lighter note: So, if I hypothetically have a male character that gets bodyjacked by his sister, but they switch off pretty often. What pronoun do I use? Currently using the pronoun of whichever one's in charge, because there's no way I'm using it.

Edited December 12, 2016 by aeromancer

[kais]

4 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

I would only apply the 'ownvoices' tag to someone who experienced whatever they are writing, as I understand the term

I think that's the point. It's ownvoices if you are coloring with the crayon of your own experiences. Whether that means black people writing black characters, or gay people writing gay characters, its supposed to give a sort of 'this experience is more authentic' label. Fiction could certainly fall into this realm, as our unique experiences can be tied into the characters and world. I don't have a history of flying spaceships, but I do of courting women as a female-looking person. This is an underrepresented area in fiction, especially as being written about from an insider perspective, so whether in space or under the sea, it is still ownvoices.

8 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

What pronoun do I use?

I'd use the gendered pronoun for whomever was in control at the time.

[neongrey]

Yeah, I dunno. I have complicated feelings about the application of ownvoices as it applies to my own stuff. Like yes, the female lead is absolutely, unambiguously bi, which I am ok with claiming, but tbh she's not a character I want anyone to per se identify with. I've got my nonbinary leads but they're nonbinary in ways I definitely am not, and experience marginalization based on that which I do not; I have my own situation and baggage. So for my own part I'm less comfortable about claiming them personally in that way. I also feel awkward about possibly hijacking from the 'more marginalized' which is again more of a personal issue than an ownvoices issue.

I'm in a weird position because I personally have zero need to actually identify with characters but I'm fully aware of how meaningful it is to have that connection to 'someone like you' in fiction.

35 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

Lighter note: So, if I hypothetically have a male character that gets bodyjacked by his sister, but they switch off pretty often. What pronoun do I use? Currently using the pronoun of whichever one's in charge, because there's no way I'm using it.

Whichever one they prefer at the time.

[Hobbit]

Just found this article about writing trans characters and thought I'd share: 

http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/articles/writing-better-trans-characters/#comment-4222

The author gives a clear argument against the "shock reveal" narrative:

"A major problem that trans people face is that so many cis people think that gender is somehow fixed at birth. Thus, they say, even though I live happily as a woman, and identify strongly as a woman, to them I am "really" a man who is "disguised" as a woman. Cis men often use this as an excuse for murdering trans women, claiming that they had been tricked into "becoming gay" because they found one of us sexually attractive. ... Because of this, if you do a shock reveal in your book, you are playing into this narrative of deception. You are encouraging your readers to think that trans people are somehow out to trick them. Please don't do that. It is an idea that gets us killed."

[aeromancer he/him]

34 minutes ago, kaisa said:

I think that's the point. It's ownvoices if you are coloring with the crayon of your own experiences. Whether that means black people writing black characters, or gay people writing gay characters, its supposed to give a sort of 'this experience is more authentic' label. Fiction could certainly fall into this realm, as our unique experiences can be tied into the characters and world. I don't have a history of flying spaceships, but I do of courting women as a female-looking person. This is an underrepresented area in fiction, especially as being written about from an insider perspective, so whether in space or under the sea, it is still ownvoices.

I wasn't clear enough. I think the ownvoices label should only apply to nonfiction. Not to say that fiction won't be written better by someone with a better perspective (because it will), but at a certain point, fiction's fiction. It might be irresponsibly insensitive fiction, but writing your own fictional works to counter that shouldn't receive a label like ownvoices.

16 minutes ago, neongrey said:

Whichever one they prefer at the time.

They're two separate people. They each prefer their own pronoun. Nutshell: The man is fighting someone and he keeps swapping in and out of control with his bodyjacking sister so that they can use two separate styles of combat. So, in a single paragraph, there's two separate consciousnesses switching off. Kaisa's idea works better, but it still gets a bit muddles.

[neongrey]

18 minutes ago, aeromancer said:

They're two separate people. They each prefer their own pronoun. Nutshell: The man is fighting someone and he keeps swapping in and out of control with his bodyjacking sister so that they can use two separate styles of combat. So, in a single paragraph, there's two separate consciousnesses switching off. Kaisa's idea works better, but it still gets a bit muddles

Speaking as someone who based a novel-length work that mandated a similar conceit (fanfiction, so not super relevant otherwise here); I'm going to assume you're doing this in limited third rather than an objective POV so this is solely applicable to this form, but the most important thing to keep track of is that you are only in one person's head at the time. Both people have separate identities, and each identity would use whichever applies, but the thing that will muddle it is if you're swapping whose identity you're using as a POV within the same paragraph. If we're in her head, narrate as she experiences things, and in his head, vice versa. If it's an external party, go with what they observe. It's best to treat the narration not as what is happening but what your POV character is experiencing.

[aeromancer he/him]

Good advice.

[neongrey]

I think there's no avoiding that sort of situation being a bit messy, but, hey, it's a messy situation, lol.

[kais]

2 hours ago, aeromancer said:

but writing your own fictional works to counter that shouldn't receive a label like ownvoices.

I'll disagree on this. There's actually been an amazing movement to push for ownvoices fiction, and because of it, agents and publishers are actively seeking ownvoices authors. It has amazingly diversified YA (sadly, not as much in adult), and is really a beautiful thing.

[neongrey]

Ownvoices is interesting because it's-- particularly in YA-- critical for readers because of that need to see people like them in fiction. It's easy to discount the value of this if you see people like yourself all the time but I can't emphasize enough how impactful this is. It's important for writers because of how much and how often marginalized writers are looked over. (consider the persvasive and untrue notion that women don't write epic fantasy, or that black people don't, or-- anything) And it's important for the broader cultural context because, frankly, priveleged people navelgazing about things that don't have anything to do with them are a dime a dozen. And that is harmful.