(Secret History Spoilers) Issues with Geometry?

[TruthlessofNalthis]

Hello seventeenth shard, longtime reader, first time poster.

 

I have a peculiar idea floating through my head and if it's been addressed in another thread, I apologize.

 

So here it goes:

 

Number One: We know that Shadesmar seems to connect all the worlds in the cosmere, both major and minor. We know this in part due to the map in WoR as well as MtSH. But here is the confusing bit.

 

Now we know that Kell walked from lake Luthadel to the ocean and then to the Fortress of Light. And we see a 'power' cord running from the fortress further to the left (east if he continued going straight from the lake over the ocean), and generally a straight line is the fastest way to anything.

 

We can assume that the area that the fortress and the Elantrians are in is 'neutral ground'. Most likely this is the representation of literally space. The question is: Does the cognitive realm reflect the world

perfectly or does it 'flatten' the world?

 

The reason I ask is again we see Kelsier simply walk off of Scadrial into the neutral zone. There is no plane, no change that we can discern except from his discomfort at getting further away.

 

Number Two: Reading BoM I came under the impression that the 'Red Mist' was a literal unknown. Wouldn't Sazed through his knowledge from two shards know of any other shards that were attempting to move in? He implies in SoS that he keeps an eye on the Cosmere at large. Upon Reading MtSH, we do learn that Elantrians do try and, for lack of a better word, shard-nap Perservation. Could they be coming back for another try?

 

Number Three: Now going back to number one, kind of. If everything is on a plane, then could the map in WoR be an actual chart of their place in the galaxy? Another post on the boards was theorizing which areas matched to which planets, and there seemed to a consensus on a couple at ( eg: Expanse of Vibrance = Nalthis, Expanse of Vapors = Scadrial) If this is the case then it may give us an idea on Where specific planets may be.

 

Now there are some issues with this idea. Do the planets without sentient life show up or is the cognitive realm smart enough to 'edit' them out?

 

The last point i want to make is that Khriss mentions that Yolen is 'hidden'. Could hidden simply mean that the planet is on another plane of Shadesmar? Similar to how we have a horizontal orbit,moving on the x axis, to the Sun, but another planet may have a more vertical, on the y axis, orbit, and there fore may not notice this planet unless it was on our 'plane' so to speak. Or say the planets of the Cosmere except for Yolen are at 1 degree on the y axis, and Yolen is at say 0, or 2 degrees. 

 

I'm honestly probably forgetting a few things, but I wanted to get this out before I forgot what I had. Thanks for reading and feel free to rip it apart as you see fit.

 

[Jke]

There's a WoB about some of your question. I don't have it at the moment, but (paraphrasing) he said the Cognitive Realm is a reflection of sentience. Where there is no cognition, there is no reflection. This shortens the distance between worlds greatly. Yolen is hidden/non-accessible due to some unknown (cosmere-related) cause. Some theorize that it's hidden because all sentient life on Yolen was destroyed, which would mean Hoid is one of a few survivors.  

[RShara she/her]

Sorry, minor point--Shadesmar is the region of the Cognitive Realm near Roshar, rather than the whole of the Cognitive Realm.

 

300 years is a relatively small amount of time in the grand scheme of things.  Sazed is still learning, and wasn't present at the original Shattering, so he wouldn't necessarily know about the presence or power of other Shards.  He doesn't recognize the spike from SoS, so it doesn't seem like he has any information about other Shards, other than knowing about Adonalsium.

 

Yolen wise, I get the feeling that whatever happened there might have severed its connection/existence to the Cognitive (and maybe Spiritual) realms completely.  So it might be that the only way to get there would be physically.

 

Other than that, we don't know enough about how the Cognitive Realm works to know if there are different levels/planes, but from what we've seen so far, I don't think it has multiple planes, just different areas.

[VoltCruelerz he/him]

Let's say you bring an airplane (an actual one, not the flying machines the Southern Scadrialites use) into Shadesmar and fly really really high up.  How would the worlds be connected?  What would they look like?

 

 

Sorry, minor point--Shadesmar is the region of the Cognitive Realm near Roshar, rather than the whole of the Cognitive Realm.

 

300 years is a relatively small amount of time in the grand scheme of things.  Sazed is still learning, and wasn't present at the original Shattering, so he wouldn't necessarily know about the presence or power of other Shards.  He doesn't recognize the spike from SoS, so it doesn't seem like he has any information about other Shards, other than knowing about Adonalsium.

 

Yolen wise, I get the feeling that whatever happened there might have severed its connection/existence to the Cognitive (and maybe Spiritual) realms completely.  So it might be that the only way to get there would be physically.

 

Other than that, we don't know enough about how the Cognitive Realm works to know if there are different levels/planes, but from what we've seen so far, I don't think it has multiple planes, just different areas.

I disagree with your points about Sazed being uninformed.  Just because he doesn't recognize the metal doesn't mean that he's ignorant of it being the God-metal of another Shard.  Besides, after what Kelsier experienced with the Elantrians and Demoux becoming a Worldhopper, surely Sazed is well-informed by the time of the Wax and Wayne books on the present political affairs of the Cosmere.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Sorry, minor point--Shadesmar is the region of the Cognitive Realm near Roshar, rather than the whole of the Cognitive Realm.

Actually, it is just the Rosharan term for the cognitive realm in general. They just associate it with Roshar, IIRC anyway. I mean you could use the term after any of the Shardworlds and you'd (at least here on the Shard anyway)

As for the OP,

1) I'd say it flattens but is still curved slightly. It isn't something that's been asked of Brandon yet i believe

2) Its hard to say, as we haven't seen any in-depth viewpoints from those who've ascended and we don't know how long the HoA epigraphs were written after Saze's ascension. It could be also that other Shards have defenses to prevent others from scrying and peeping on their affairs. I'm curious if a Shard would be able to recognise another Shard's presence/investiture

3) depending if the CR is flattened or not, but i think it could give us a general idea of where the other Shardworlds are.

As for Yolen, I believe something is either hiding it from all three realms or that its position constantly changes

Edited January 31, 2016 by ParadoxSpren

[RShara she/her]

 

Interview: Mar 4th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Talenelat (Verbatim)

Leinton

Is there a difference between Shadesmar and the Cognitive realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Shadesmar is a word for the Cognitive Realm specifically touching - It's like San Diego is a word for a place in America. It's a local word.

[Ari he/him]

Rshara is correct, Brandon has also explicitly said that Shadesmar is the Cognitive on Roshar, I just don't think it's made its way into Theoryland.

 

I'm pretty sure the Cognitive reflection of planets is flattened, otherwise you wouldn't be able to walk into the Expanses. (the cognitive reflection of space) Don't ask me how that works though- there's all sorts of geometry problems to flattening a planet, not the least is- which parts of it do you have touch the cognitive reflection of space?

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ari

[RShara she/her]

I'm fairly sure that areas without a lot of souls/sentient beings are compressed so that they take up less "space" in the Cognitive Realm.

 

So for flattening, you would have the continents in more-or-less the same shape as they are in the Physical, with spaces between for oceans to kind of "fill in the gaps" between them (which makes flattening the planet much easier!)  Then once you get to the "end" of that planet's Cognitive space, you get to the empty spaces between planets.  The Tower was probably somewhere in the empty spaces between the planets Scadrial and Sel.
With the lack of life in space, that would mean that it's a relatively short distance between planets in the Cognitive Realm, allowing people to travel between planets much faster.

[Ari he/him]

I'm fairly sure that areas without a lot of souls/sentient beings are compressed so that they take up less "space" in the Cognitive Realm.

 

So for flattening, you would have the continents in more-or-less the same shape as they are in the Physical, with spaces between for oceans to kind of "fill in the gaps" between them (which makes flattening the planet much easier!)  Then once you get to the "end" of that planet's Cognitive space, you get to the empty spaces between planets.  The Tower was probably somewhere in the empty spaces between the planets Scadrial and Sel.

With the lack of life in space, that would mean that it's a relatively short distance between planets in the Cognitive Realm, allowing people to travel between planets much faster.

 

The issue is that flattening the continents inherently distorts their shape and/or relative position to some degree. Compressing the size of the oceans probably doesn't solve that.

[RShara she/her]

The issue is that flattening the continents inherently distorts their shape and/or relative position to some degree. Compressing the size of the oceans probably doesn't solve that.

 

Well, the continents wouldn't be exactly the same anyway, since any uninhabited areas would probably be smaller/compressed, depending on population/habitation.

 

So like, our Africa, the Sahara normally would take days or weeks to walk across, but might take only a few hours or days in the Cognitive Realm, since there isn't a lot of life there.

[yafeshan he/him]

I believe cognitive realm has indication to the relative position of planets in Cosmere. Otherwise why would a certain direction would be a way to go certain planets cognitive realm. Cognitive realm can be a sphere and positions of their cognitive aspects are positioned according to the relative position of planets in space. There can even be a physical construct in the middle of cosmere space which enables cognitive realm, therefore enabling traveling between planets.

 

I also believe the strange suns in each cognitive realm are actually their respective planets. The function of a normal sun is providing energy and life to a planet. If we deem cosmere planets as suns in cognitive realms, they fulfill the purpose of providing energy to their cognitive aspects.

[Jke]

Also, though there seems to be rules for the cognitive realm, it seems as it is mutatable based on the belief of the thinker. It is a representation of the physical world. I don't know if flattening is the right way to think about it. Kelsier ran for days and days, but even so, it is unlikely that would have been made it as far as he had if he didn't somehow move through the recognitive realm faster (al la wolf dream?)

[PudgyNinja]

As far as the "flattening" goes, I think there are a couple possibilities.

 

One is just that the border forms at the point most distant from any sentient beings.  It would make sense, then, for it to typically be in the middle of the ocean somewhere, though, it's plausible that on another world it might be in a desert or other wasteland.

 

Second is that it just forms in the way that most people perceive their world to be.  So, for example, if there was a cognitive realm for earth, it might roughly be in the shape of a mercator projection just because that's the dominant way that the earth is perceived (I think.  Maybe that's just an ethnocentric perspective, but I think it is).

[Ari he/him]

I believe cognitive realm has indication to the relative position of planets in Cosmere. Otherwise why would a certain direction would be a way to go certain planets cognitive realm. Cognitive realm can be a sphere and positions of their cognitive aspects are positioned according to the relative position of planets in space. There can even be a physical construct in the middle of cosmere space which enables cognitive realm, therefore enabling traveling between planets.

 

I also believe the strange suns in each cognitive realm are actually their respective planets. The function of a normal sun is providing energy and life to a planet. If we deem cosmere planets as suns in cognitive realms, they fulfill the purpose of providing energy to their cognitive aspects.

 

Nope. SH straight up contradicts this- the suns are the Shards' power shining down from the Spiritual realm.

 

As far as the "flattening" goes, I think there are a couple possibilities.

 

One is just that the border forms at the point most distant from any sentient beings.  It would make sense, then, for it to typically be in the middle of the ocean somewhere, though, it's plausible that on another world it might be in a desert or other wasteland.

 

Second is that it just forms in the way that most people perceive their world to be.  So, for example, if there was a cognitive realm for earth, it might roughly be in the shape of a mercator projection just because that's the dominant way that the earth is perceived (I think.  Maybe that's just an ethnocentric perspective, but I think it is).

 

You're probably on to something there, if I were constructing the rules myself, that seems like a good out for the "how do you avoid splitting a continent" problem. It just means you're not going to get a perfectly regular shape in flattening a planet, but then again, you can just fill that in with the Expanse anyway.

 

Mercator is a terrible projection for anything other than sailing, which is the reason why it's so popular- flat maps preserving latitude and longitude were ideal for sailors, who had the most practical use for maps back in the day. The side-effect of inflating the landmasses in the northern hemisphere was completely unintended, and an accident of the fact that the southern hemisphere only really has Antartica close to its pole. I imagine the answer to what projection method you'd use is "however people think about their world when it's flat." That may not be a method like Mercator in civilisations that don't have a lot of sea trade.

[natc]

I suppose in that sense, it's not really flat at all, it's just how people's minds interpret the place to be like?

It's not physical space after all, euclidean geometry isn't really a must . . .

[TruthlessofNalthis]

Okay, so we can assume that it we have a general consensus that it may be flat or at least slightly curved. 

 

Now for another question: Say someone enters Shadesmar somewhere near the seat of storms in SA. They would be in the center of an ocean and therefore would 'spawn' on land. However would only one direction take them to the Roshar portion of Shadesmar? If they picked the wrong direction would they wander off into space? Onto another planet? 

 

I just have this image in my head of early worldhoppers (Hoid) getting lost simply because they walked the wrong direction.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Presumably, frequent worldhoppers could have a map of the Cognitive Realm.

[KSub]

Sorry I know this post was almost dead but I've had some thoughts relating to M:SH so I've been going through old posts to see it anything has been mentioned.

Firstly, the cognitive realm reflects all life including animals, and I believe plants, so the ocean isn't going to disappear.

Secondly, my best guess for the shape of Scadrial in Scadesmar is a sphere. If you imagine a bubble around the planet and that bubble reflects the real world. The world would feel flat as it normally does and the oceans might seem to be rising. It's kind of confusing, but we are in the cognitive realm! Maybe when you get high onto the ocean there is little enough life that the world thins. This is where you cross into the neutral zone. So there would not need to be a weird flattening of the planet leaving a strange edge. There would just be pockets where it leaves Scadrial.

[natc]

But then,we run into issues with the sky . . . how does the neutral space connect?

Also, necroposting is apparently allowed if you are contributing to the discussion.

As long as you aren't, say, reviving a thread just to tell someone that they are wrong, then cite facts that were not known until 3 years after the incorrect pist to disprove them, or something along those lines, we will not think you're being annoying.

Edited February 23, 2016 by natc

[Ari he/him]

Sorry I know this post was almost dead but I've had some thoughts relating to M:SH so I've been going through old posts to see it anything has been mentioned.

Firstly, the cognitive realm reflects all life including animals, and I believe plants, so the ocean isn't going to disappear.

Secondly, my best guess for the shape of Scadrial in Scadesmar is a sphere. If you imagine a bubble around the planet and that bubble reflects the real world. The world would feel flat as it normally does and the oceans might seem to be rising. It's kind of confusing, but we are in the cognitive realm! Maybe when you get high onto the ocean there is little enough life that the world thins. This is where you cross into the neutral zone. So there would not need to be a weird flattening of the planet leaving a strange edge. There would just be pockets where it leaves Scadrial.

 

That doesn't exactly make sense as there are specific directions that line up with specific expanses. (expanses being the name for specific areas of space that lie between worlds) If the Cognitive realm mapped three-dimensionally with the Physical realm, you would expect the planets' reflections to rotate with reference to the directions in the Expanses, which the existence of the map of Shadesmar for Roshar, with expanses marked on it, plainly contradicts.