Odium & Autonomy vs. Harmony

[RyloKen he/him]

Hi all, just trying to get my first theory out for critiques and thoughts!

 

So, just finished Shadows of Self, and the big question is, what shard did that new metal come from? I've seen a lot of theories out there, but I am thoroughly convinced that it is not Odium as many have thought, but Autonomy working WITH Odium. And here's why: 

 

 

I believe for several reasons that the shard is not Odium

1. Odium is very busy on Roshar as is.
2. Odium is terrified of Harmony, so would not be likely to challenge him in person, especially not on Harmony's own world. However, he might send a friend to do the dirty work. Brandon has said that not only could  Odium work with other shards, but that he likely has. Odium would be willing to work with others and probably has. 

   Q [2:07:35]: Could - would - Odium ever work with another Shard?
   A: If he were in charge. This is within the realm of possibility. In fact, that may have happened at various points. (I swear I can hear his sly smile…)
   (source)

3. Paalm's entire purpose is to set herself and everyone else free of Harmony's influence and control. If another shard was controlling her, it would logically follow that she would reject this control as well. Unless that shard was influencing her towards "freedom"....

So, if it's not Odium, who else could it be? My thoughts point to none other than our friend Bavadin, holding the shard Autonomy. Why? Well,

1.  It seems that Rayse (Odium) and Bavadin may be working together. This theory is not hugely supported, but the writer of The Letter did mention them and his grudges against them respectively in the same sentence, pointing to the fact that they may have more connection than we know. A full theory as to why Rayse and Bavadin may be working together was posted by Spire and can be found here.
2. Bavadin's shard is Autonomy, or "freedom from external control or influence; independence." This seems to be exactly what Paalm is fighting for the whole time. What other shard's influence could one who so clearly wants freedom have fallen under save freedom itself? 
3. Autonomy may be fighting for a world free from Shardic influence. Who else better to ally himself with then, than someone who is actively splintering shards?
4. The biggest argument I have seen against Autonomy being the unknown shard is the creatures that Paalm creates through Hemalurgy, likely with the same metal that is in her. This seems to be against Autonomy's intent, taking away the people affected's freedom to choose. However, we know that human sentience on Scadrial comes directly from Preservation. I postulate that the Paalm's Hemalurgic use of Autonomy's metal in this case removes any part/influence of another shard from the person the Hemalurgy is used on. This thus would remove Preservation from them, taking away their sentience and reverting them to a primal, beast-like state. 
5. Brandon said that this shard is one we've already seen. Dominion, Devotion, and Honor have all been splintered, it isn't of Harmony, for reasons shown above I don't believe that it is Odium, Cultivation is hiding on Roshar, and Endowment seems content on Nalthis. This leaves only Autonomy.

 

Thank you for reading my theory, any comments and responses will be appreciated!

[Voidus]

Technically the quote is that the Shard is one that we know of. Not necessarily one we've seen.
There is also I think an old WoB that there is one Shard that just wants to be left alone, which potentially could classify as us 'knowing of' that Shard. Though given that the only thing we know about it is that it wants to be left alone that makes it rather unlikely that it would interfere on Scadrial.

Another potential though is that Odium made the metal but gave it to an agent, staying on Roshar himself.

[Landis963 he/him]

Another potential though is that Odium made the metal but gave it to an agent, staying on Roshar himself.

 

Might not work - magic on Roshar doesn't focus on metal like magic on Scadrial does.  Note that the voidspren that gave the Parshendi stormform was encased in a gem.  

[Voidus]

Might not work - magic on Roshar doesn't focus on metal like magic on Scadrial does.  Note that the voidspren that gave the Parshendi stormform was encased in a gem.  

Might not, but it could. It's unlikely that a Shard could Invest enough in Scadrial to be affected by it's focus without Harmony's knowledge, so I believe that any Shard could create a physical embodiment of their Investiture in metallic form.

[Landis963 he/him]

Might not, but it could. It's unlikely that a Shard could Invest enough in Scadrial to be affected by it's focus without Harmony's knowledge, so I believe that any Shard could create a physical embodiment of their Investiture in metallic form.

 

My point being that they might need to be on Scadrial to do so in the first place, regardless of how Invested they are in that world.  That process is dark and full of RAFOs.  (also there's the possibility of a Shard cheating the system somehow, to produce an anomalous godmetal, which, again, is RAFO-tastic)

Edited January 15, 2016 by Landis963

[natc]

So moving planets, reshaping landscapes, or genetically modifying all microorganisms on the planet to process ash is child's play for a shard . . . but you need to be in a specific place in the galaxy to turn your energies into solid metal?

Sounds really counterintuitive.

[Purelake Earthquake he/him]

Right now my money's on it just being Autonomy (though he could still be buddies with Odium).  I wouldn't rule Odium out either, though.  There's three more Stormlight books before Shadows, a lot could've happened in that time.

 

 

 

This gives me an idea of something I haven't heard anyone propose yet.  (NOTE: I don't actually find this likely)  What if Odium and Autonomy were both being held by the same person?  Now, my first thought was that Rayse would be the one holding both.  This wouldn't make sense for a few reasons.  I don't think Rayse would want to kill Bavadin, but maybe someone else killed Autonomy first.  Except, from The Letter it still seems like Bavadin was still alive during WoK.  While a lot can happen on Roshar over those five books, it seems less likely that so much would happen on a seperate planet.  Furthermore, Rayse doesn't seem that interested in taking other Shards, he mostly just shatters them (he could have decided to take on another Shard in order to be able to combat Harmony, but just teaming up together would make more sense).

 

What would make a little bit more sense would be Bavadin taking up Odium.  Perhaps during Stormlight 5 someone kills Rayse and then Bavadin sweeps in, grabs Odium, and runs off to Scadrial.  There are plenty of problems with this too.  How would Brandon write that into the Stormlight arc, while maintaining a good narrative?  It doesn't seem like it would fit with Autonomy's intent to take another shard, thus limiting the bearer's Autonomy by being made to submit to another intent.

 

Or, instead, maybe Rayse and Bavadin were both killed and had their Shards taken up by Kaladin.  Okay, all this isn't that serious, I mostly just brought it up because I hadn't considered the possibility of a shard fusion here, and I don't like to get too comfortable thinking that the cosmere as we know it is going to stay as we know it throughout the different series.

 

 

 

Anyway,  in response to the original post, I don't think this would quite work out.  First off, since this is proposing where the new metal is coming from, I don't see how two shards working together would result in one god metal.  It's got to come from one source.  Second, I don't think the two of them would be able to work as a team.  From the WoB you brought up, Odium would only work with another shard if he was in charge.  And with Autonomy being Autonomy, I don't think he would let anyone else be in charge of him.  Granted, they could very well be allied together and come up with some agreements, I don't see them working directly together on a project.

[RyloKen he/him]

 

 

 

 

Anyway,  in response to the original post, I don't think this would quite work out.  First off, since this is proposing where the new metal is coming from, I don't see how two shards working together would result in one god metal.  It's got to come from one source.  

 In response to this part, I wasn't saying that they worked together to create the new metal, rather that Autonomy was the source of the metal, he was just in cahoots with Odium.

[RyloKen he/him]

Ultimately, I think that the Shard whose influence we see in Shadows of Self is Autonomy. The whole Odium and Autonomy working together theory  is just a possible, and I think probable, explanation as to why Autonomy was interfering on Scadrial in the first place.

[Purelake Earthquake he/him]

 

 In response to this part, I wasn't saying that they worked together to create the new metal, rather that Autonomy was the source of the metal, he was just in cahoots with Odium.

 

I thought you might have meant this, there was just some ambiguous wording.

[jasenerd]

Um, not to derail this, but couldn't Endowment also be present? There is nothing I can think of that would deny Endowment's involvement and the intent lines up better if Endowment is the one whom is endowing the "Trellium" on Paalm. Endowment is defined as "to furnish, as with some talent, faculty, or quality" ,which I see as explaining why Paalm could gain, or be endowed with, the other metalic arts through hemalugy. Of course,  this doesn't disprove Autonomy involvement, but it does make a case for Endowment being involved as well/in place of Odium.

 

Unless you are arguing that Autonomy could create a God Metal that allows Kandra to gain Allomancy/Ferochemy. Fairly certain that kandra cannot gain non-human attributes with any of the 16 base metals or the 2 God metals, unless this is mentioned in Bands of Mourning, which I haven't had the chance to read yet.

Edited January 15, 2016 by jasenerd

[Edgedancer he/him]

Might not work - magic on Roshar doesn't focus on metal like magic on Scadrial does.  Note that the voidspren that gave the Parshendi stormform was encased in a gem.  

And Honor/Shardblades are made out of metal(ish stuff), so it's not like turning their powers into metal is something exclusive to Preservation and Ruin.

[Brendan1173 he/him]

INTERVIEW: Apr 15th, 2013

Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)

SHADOWSABER223 ()

If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal? If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it? Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and it's magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.

 

 

I'm sorry that I could not put that in a quote. I am still trying to figure out how this all works. If the above goes for Odium then it probably should for Autonomy as well. I would just like to point out that the metal from SoS is probably not of Autonomy because of Identity as is mentioned above. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=odium    (Number 18)

 

[Voidus]

INTERVIEW: Apr 15th, 2013

Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)

SHADOWSABER223 ()

If Odium were lured to Scadrial, would his physical body turn into a burnable metal? If so, could Harmony create an Odium-metal legion of Mistings to consume and burn it? Would that weaken him sufficiently enough to be killed or destroyed?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The difficulty here is, again, one of Identity. People born on Scadrial have an Identity tied to it and it's magic. Odium would have to do certain things to make them able to use a magic he fuels. He has done these things on Roshar, so it's not impossible for him to manage it on Scadrial.

I'm sorry that I could not put that in a quote. I am still trying to figure out how this all works. If the above goes for Odium then it probably should for Autonomy as well. I would just like to point out that the metal from SoS is probably not of Autonomy because of Identity as is mentioned above. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=odium    (Number 18)

 

 

Well no one's burned the new metal yet and Hemalurgy is universal so that could still work without needing to significantly Invest.

[Oversleep]

Well no one's burned the new metal yet and Hemalurgy is universal so that could still work without needing to significantly Invest.

If it's a metal working with Hemalurgy, it works within all Three Metallic Arts. The simple fact that Hemalurgy can be used to steal anything isn't of significance when we're talking about Shards Investing on Scadrial. If they did it enough to be used in Hemalurgy, they did it enough to be stored in or burned.

[pharaoh9000 he/him]

A Sanderson-fan/friend of mine mentioned to me that the red spots on the metal spike found in Paalm could be indicative of Odium on Scadrial.  As Odium's spren on Roshar were red, my friend says Odium's influence might have something to do with the red on the metal spike as well.

 

I don't know if I buy that theory or not... but it does make me think.  I always thought the culprit was Autonomy because of Paalm's rantings about freedom... but the Autonomy/Odium co-op theory makes me think again from scratch.

[FirstSelector]

I had a very similar theory very soon after the Shadows of Self was released.  There were a bunch of good points raised in that thread.