Spire Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Okay, so here's what we know: Rayse/Odium Trapped in Greater Roshar Scared shitless of Harmony (WOB: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1074#2 ) Shatters other shards through "skill, ability, numbers or possibly un-dispersed power" (same WOB as above). Shattered Devotion and Dominion. Bavadin/Autonomy Bavadin's shard is Autonomy (WOB). Hoid talks about Rayse and Bavadin in the same breath, suggesting some sort of connection or similarity. Shadows of Self The mysterious new God Metal belongs to a Shard we've already seen (WOB). Bleeder is frothing at the mouth about freedom and clearly hates Harmony. Aaaand here's my speculation! Odium wants Harmony out the way because he's a threat (but has trouble acting since he's trapped in Greater Roshar), and Autonomy wants Harmony gone because that lines up with his intent. Neither of them are going to move against two shards alone, because it's a great way to get dumpstered. They're moving against him together. And what's more, they've done this before. We know that not all shards have opposites but that some do (WOB). Hatred and Autonomy...what's the closest thing we've seen to their opposites? It's got to be Devotion and Dominion. My money's on Bavadin being involved - he helps Odium shatter his opposite and in return Odium does the same for him. Everyone gets what they want (unless you happen to be Aona or Skai in which case you end up dead). And it laid the basis for them to work together in SoS against Harmony! Thoughts? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperity Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I don't see Devotion being anything close to an opposite of Odium. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrown Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 This has to make sense to me. Given that Mistborn Trilogy #2 is dated between Stormlight #5 and #6, the events of Stormlight Archive #5 might impact it. We know a lot about Odium, and he definitely has motive against Harmony. The real question here is what does Automony stand to gain by helping destroy Harmony? Second question, would Automony use part of his mind combined with part of Odium's power to create the effects on Bleeder? Or the reverse? With Odium being aware of how powerful Harmony is, I don't think he'd sacrifice much of his mind/power. (The two resources Gods have). Or maybe the risk is worth the gain. Having a piece of metal thats fueled by a desire of Freedom and Hatred laying about Scadrial is almost a ticking timebomb. What if that piece of metal was inserted into Marsh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrown Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I don't see Devotion being anything close to an opposite of Odium. Devotion/Love, is opposite of "widespread hatred/disgust". You have a different interpretation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Witborn Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Devotion/Love, is opposite of "widespread hatred/disgust". You have a different interpretation? Devotion does not equal love. You can be devoted to something without loving it. If the shard was supposed to be love, it would have been named that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spire Posted October 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Devotion does not equal love. You can be devoted to something without loving it. If the shard was supposed to be love, it would have been named that. You're absolutely correct - Devotion is not love, because love is just a subset - an example - of devotion. Odium is "the weight of God's divine hatred". A hatred of everything: other shards, other ideologies (why he doesn't want to take up other shards), other beings (look at the whole Desolations thing, where he's killing people Just Because instead of going after Cultivation). The idea of devoting yourself to another entity or a cause - because you believe in it, because you love it, or because you think it's worth protecting - makes far more sense as the opposite of Odium than 'love'. Edited October 12, 2015 by Spire 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spire Posted October 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 This has to make sense to me. Given that Mistborn Trilogy #2 is dated between Stormlight #5 and #6, the events of Stormlight Archive #5 might impact it. We know a lot about Odium, and he definitely has motive against Harmony. The real question here is what does Automony stand to gain by helping destroy Harmony? Second question, would Automony use part of his mind combined with part of Odium's power to create the effects on Bleeder? Or the reverse? With Odium being aware of how powerful Harmony is, I don't think he'd sacrifice much of his mind/power. (The two resources Gods have). Or maybe the risk is worth the gain. Having a piece of metal thats fueled by a desire of Freedom and Hatred laying about Scadrial is almost a ticking timebomb. What if that piece of metal was inserted into Marsh? Harmony seems to take a much more active involvement in Scadrial than, say, Endowment or Cultivation do. He's got agents that move among the people, he plans out their technological and cultural development, and he intervenes through Marsh, Wax or TenSoon where necessary. If Bavadin were to go after anyone I'd expect it to be Harmony. As for how much he's willing to invest, that's why I think he's teaming up with Bavadin - alone, he's going to get smashed. But Ruin has a part of his power lost in atium, and Preservation has fragments of his power within every human on Scadrial...which gives Odium and Autonomy the leeway to spend a few fragments of their power to create god metals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrown Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 harmony is also vastly unique, because he grew up and lived on the planet he is currently the God of. That gives him a very different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperity Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Devotion/Love, is opposite of "widespread hatred/disgust". You have a different interpretation? Love is not the same thing as Devotion. They can incorporate similar traits but do not share a definition in the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrown Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Fair enough, but Devotion not be the exact literary opposite of Odium, but on that Planet, Devotion opposes Odium. You know, as far as human personalities who ascend to god-hood can be diametrically opposed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jozomby Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Given the dating of Shadows of Self, I think that Odium might be tied up with events on Roshar. Given, we don't know exactly how much time passes between stormlight arc 1 and AoL/SoS, and we also know that Shardholders' mental processing is much faster than normal humans, but I would still expect Odium to attack another shard when he doesn't have so much on his plate. (Since it's looking like he's going to be a major villain of the stormlight archive.) Also, purely from a stylistic point of view, it seems rather strange for Sanderson to write 2 series at the same time with Odium as the villain. If he's going to use Odium again at some point, I would expect it to come as more of a surprise, and not be something we could predict so easily. As for Bavadin, I really can't speak to that since I don't know anything about him. It would work, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Given the dating of Shadows of Self, I think that Odium might be tied up with events on Roshar. Given, we don't know exactly how much time passes between stormlight arc 1 and AoL/SoS, and we also know that Shardholders' mental processing is much faster than normal humans, but I would still expect Odium to attack another shard when he doesn't have so much on his plate. (Since it's looking like he's going to be a major villain of the stormlight archive.) Also, purely from a stylistic point of view, it seems rather strange for Sanderson to write 2 series at the same time with Odium as the villain. If he's going to use Odium again at some point, I would expect it to come as more of a surprise, and not be something we could predict so easily. As for Bavadin, I really can't speak to that since I don't know anything about him. It would work, I suppose. I think for the specific events of SoS, I agree that Bavadin was probably acting alone. That said, I don't think the two shards have stopped working together. If Odium survives the Stormlight Archive somehow, you better believe that he's going to have some sort of plan for Harmony, and that plan will involve his nearest-thing-to-a-buddy, Autonomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curious Anamaximder Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Scared shitless of Harmony I would watch my language, but I think this is a great theory. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperity Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Fair enough, but Devotion not be the exact literary opposite of Odium, but on that Planet, Devotion opposes Odium. You know, as far as human personalities who ascend to god-hood can be diametrically opposed. But that's subjective dislike. That's nowhere near the same thing as 'Opposite-Paired Shards' (such as Ruin and Preservation.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrown Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 What would be the opposite-paired shard then? That does bring up the question if all of them even have opposites. Question about everyone assuming Bavadin. Has he done something like this before? Traveled to another planet to destroy a shard? Attacking other shards seems in character for Odium, but I'm not intimately familiar with Autonomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jozomby Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) What would be the opposite-paired shard then? That does bring up the question if all of them even have opposites. Question about everyone assuming Bavadin. Has he done something like this before? Traveled to another planet to destroy a shard? Attacking other shards seems in character for Odium, but I'm not intimately familiar with Autonomy. I don't remember if there's WoB for this, but I don't think there are opposites for every shard. And, as far as I know we don't have any evidence of Autonomy assassinating shards before. As someone confirmed for me not long ago, the only published reference we have to Bavadin is in the Letter, where Hoid expresses his dislike for Bavadin and Rayse in the same sentence. Other than that, there's White Sand, which isn't canon (yet). Edited October 13, 2015 by dklee10 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjdwijdmskdms Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 The question is if Bavadin is even capable of working together with anyone. Preservation couldn't attack Ruin because it went against the intent of the Shard. I' argue that Bavadin has held Autonomy long enough that the intend of his shard basically became his own. I agree it makes sense that he would work against Harmony but i don't think he's even capable of working with anyone because it goes against his shard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperity Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 What would be the opposite-paired shard then? That does bring up the question if all of them even have opposites. We don't know the opposite-paired Shard, if it even has one.. I am far too lazy to look up the WoB right now but to paraphrase, there isn't an exact opposite for /every/ Shard, and if Adonalsium were to be Shattered again, we would see a set of completely different Shards (or mostly different.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qarlin Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I don't know that Autonomy would be opposed to Harmony, as Harmony is all about Balance and, really, non-interference; the longer Sazed holds Harmony, the less likely he is to interfere with the world, which means all Autonomy would need to do to lessen Harmony's control is to wait. I'm not saying the theory isn't true. It might be. It makes sense (what with Freedom and all that). And it's more likely to be Bavadin than it is to be Rayse, but it could be either. Even with Shadows of Self and Words of Radiance happening at about the same time; Odium has been active on all the other planets (see WoB, bottom of page). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstSelector Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 I had a very similar idea, though I wasn't thinking about Sel at the time. That's an interesting idea, certainly, though I don't think it is necessary to pair the Shards up so neatly (and in fact I don't think they will, in general). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBarrometer Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 I don't know that Autonomy would be opposed to Harmony, as Harmony is all about Balance and, really, non-interference; the longer Sazed holds Harmony, the less likely he is to interfere with the world, which means all Autonomy would need to do to lessen Harmony's control is to wait. I'm not saying the theory isn't true. It might be. It makes sense (what with Freedom and all that). And it's more likely to be Bavadin than it is to be Rayse, but it could be either. Even with Shadows of Self and Words of Radiance happening at about the same time; Odium has been active on all the other planets (see WoB, bottom of page). But Sazed hasn't avoided intervening - in fact he quite clearly does through Wax and the Kandra, its simply that he only intervenes in certain ways, paraphrasing him "To maximise the possible good outcomes for everyone". Part of his power set is quite literally to take control over certain people, and even if he only uses it to do good (by his measure of good), he is still removeing their autonomy to meet his own goal of harmony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjdwijdmskdms Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 But Sazed hasn't avoided intervening - in fact he quite clearly does through Wax and the Kandra, its simply that he only intervenes in certain ways, paraphrasing him "To maximise the possible good outcomes for everyone". Part of his power set is quite literally to take control over certain people, and even if he only uses it to do good (by his measure of good), he is still removeing their autonomy to meet his own goal of harmony. I think the point he was making was that Harmonys intent does not line up with what Sazed is currently doing. We know that a Shard influences the Shardholder over time. Sazed hasn't held Harmony for very long (in relative terms) and since Harmonys intent would eventually ocercome Sazeds own, all Bavadin would have to do is wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 I don't remember if there's WoB for this, but I don't think there are opposites for every shard. And, as far as I know we don't have any evidence of Autonomy assassinating shards before. As someone confirmed for me not long ago, the only published reference we have to Bavadin is in the Letter, where Hoid expresses his dislike for Bavadin and Rayse in the same sentence. Other than that, there's White Sand, which isn't canon (yet). The word of Brandon we had is along the lines of "Not all shards have direct opposites the way Preservation and Ruin do." (At the time, a lot of people thought it was implicit that all shards would come in neat opposing pairs) So you can interpret that in three ways- one, all shards are paired, but not all opposites are as direct as Preservation and Ruin. Two, not all shards are paired. Three, some shards are paired and some are not, AND not all pairings are as directly opposed as Preservation and Ruin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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