AuthorityHellas16 he/him Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Hi all, Here’s the next two chapters of When Good Angels Do Nothing. As usual, any and all feedback is greatly appreciated. In addition, I’d like to know your thoughts on Chapter 5, specifically whether it needs to be included. I had it primarily to establish the creation of the Void Knights (who you’ll meet later!) and explain the pseudo-physics of the Void in more detail. Let me know if it feels a bit info-dumpy. Cheers, AH16 Last Time: Having been banished from Heaven, Hellas travelled to the forests of the Mor’kai Scrios. He trained with his master, attempted to master the Eighteenth Sphere, the most powerful techniques in existence, but struggled to do so. That evening he had a flashback of his life before he was “Hellas,” where he encountered Abaddon at the climax of the Great War, nearly six hundred years ago. At the same time, his exile was commuted and he was called back to Heaven to assist with an attack on a hellspawn army. Using his skill as a strategist, and fighting his PTSD, he guided the Host to rout the enemy quickly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon he/him Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Okay, so lots of notes on this one. First, I think chapter 5 does have use, especially if you tweak it to help us understand the magic system, which is my biggest complaint below. I have some big issues with consistency in ch 6. I really like the story, but I'm frustrated with things that are pulling me out of it. I still want to read more, and I hope my concerns are cleared up as I read farther along. pg 1: "They ensured that the populace was well fed, employed and equipped. Hellas considered their job description as boring as their clothes were ridiculous." --boring maybe, but unless angels don't need to eat, I would think this was one of the most important jobs. Hellas, as a strategist, would recognize this. pg 2: "Thomas, “the Doubter,” Interesting, but wasn't Thomas a human? You haven't covered where/how/why humans can become saints or (angels). I'm coming from popular religion here, but that's the only thing I have to go on so far. pg 2-4: I'm not sure what Hellas is doing here with the White Faces. Why does he want to give them sentience? I'm still iffy on the magic as well, so your description of him Pushing, Touching, and using Eclipse energy doesn't give me more information about what that magic controls. The creation of the White Faces also doesn't seem to tire Hellas in any way or make his use anything. Could he just stand around all day and do this? "An emerald rune flashed on his palm and he sensed the White Face becoming vaguely sentient" --This is what I'm talking about. Why does this happen? I have no idea what the emerald rune even is, much less why it makes something become sentient. What happens if you attach it to an animal? A piece of wood? Let me be clear, I really like what you're doing with this, I just want to understand it better. pg 6: "Hellas was the only Forger who was able to travel in and out of the Void at will. Technology such as the Pearly Gates that connected Heaven to the Middle Kingdom was therefore enjoyed without really being understood. --so where did they get the tech from? Did Hellas build it? pg 6: "Solid Eclipse energy,’ he whispered and shook his head. ‘Gets me every time." --a bit infodumpy. "Vibrant streams of colour flowed around him like petals blown by cosmic winds." --I thought he was in eternal blackness? pg 6: "On his current path, every minute would likely equate to hours back home. But with a whole afternoon to himself, he was not worried." if a minute=hours, then he should move quickly if he wants to be back in the next day or two. pg 7: "He extended his fingers and gingerly Pushed the energy with the most delicate Touch he could muster." --this is what I don't understand. If he's doing both at the same time, what's the difference? I still don't really understand what either of them are except for Hellas using energy of some sort. pg 7; "They called me…Raziel." --this would have more impact if I had heard of him in a previous chapter. pg 7: "I wanted to know if there was a way to bring the dead back to life.' --he does? Maybe I missed something last week. pg 9: "take a lesson" --Looks like from the next page that Hellas is teaching, not taking. pg 9: I like that the names are the same as great warriors in history. Hoping to find out more about why. pg 11: "No situation is un-winnable. No matter how grim things may appear, there is always a way to survive and win." --I would debate this... pg 13: "Almost a hundred White Faces rose out of the thick shadows" --so evidently he can raise a LOT of these things. Why not just fight the demons with them instead? Especially since: "If the students could face these monsters, the hellspawn would be a walk in the park" pg 13: "banishing his White Faces back to the Void with a snap of his fingers" --WHY! See above. pg 14: "A hundred and fifty White Faces emerged from the fog, their deadly diamond glaives glinting in the sunlight, faces blank and black robes smouldering. " --Now I'm really confused. He banishes them, then calls them back. And if he has the energy to do that, I'd expect Hellas could take on all 500 Hellspawn with one hand tied behind his back. pg 16: "Hellas fell to his knees. His heart pounded against his chest. Sweat streamed from his forehead. He felt every last iota of energy evaporate from his body. " --I don't believe this at this point. He should have either fallen over sooner or have plenty of energy to continue. Seems plot-driven. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smgorden he/him Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 Chapater 5 ==== I vote to keep it. But put meat on the bones. Everywhere you use an adverb ("athletically" is one that stood out to me) is a place for expansion. Consider removing adverbs and turning them into description of specific action. Show the things define athleticism, etc. (Can't claim credit for this idea... I heard it on Writing Excuses ) "They were experts in their chosen field who lent their expertise and experience to the Council." Slightly awkward repetition of sounds: experts, expertise, experience. Possibly redundant. Consider using alternate synonyms. "With a click of his fingers and a flash of burning pain, he moulded a single White Face from the tree shadows." This is an awesome statement. It would be wonderful to get more detail on how this happens. If the power/magic used to do this isn't meant to be explained, consider just the details of what it looks like when this happens. Great opportunity for immersion. "Hellas raised his hands and felt the familiar burn of Eclipse energy flowing through his Mark." Is the mark explained in the previous chapters? I'd like to know what that is. Most of the capitalized language can be understood in context, even if I don't understand it. Eclipse energy I can assume is a mystical force, so that's cool. But his Mark is too specific to get without a comment about where or what it is. Even if it's been mentioned before, might be good to reiterate. "He walked up to where the White Face had stood, frowning confusedly". 'Confusedly' is an awkward adverb. Consider 'frowning and confused' for simplicity. If you don't want to say outright that he is confused, consider another way of describing how and why he looks confused. "As if to mark this change, the clone’s hooded robe started to smoulder, like it was made of black fire." Very cool visual signal. I like it. Chapter 6 ==== "Hellas was about to start the exercise when..." no impact here. Soldiers are in a classroom environment, but that is canceled in favor of practical training. But enemy shows up and training is canceled. Frustrating turn, since nothing has happened yet. I'd like to see something engaging, get a little confidence going and see how these people fight before the enemy drops in to spoil things. Consider writing some of the training, and showing the level of competence the soldiers have. Opportunity to provide context to these characters and their abilities. "Hellas closed his eyes, feeling the familiar rush of energy through the Mark on his back." Aha! So that's where the Mark is Consider mentioning this once in the previous chapter (probably the first time it comes up) . "all of their pent up aggression did little to push the disciplined White Faces back." Disciplined? I thought it was established that these were puppets. Would it be more accurate to comment on their lack of emotion? Their relative calm, compared to the bad guys? OR you could skip that comment, because the next paragraph describes the tone of the White Face soliders and their methods quite well. Hellas in battle: Vivid climax, great to see what he can do. Would be even better if we saw and understood the power level of the weaker characters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdpulfer he/him Posted December 31, 2015 Report Share Posted December 31, 2015 Apologies for the confusion - I think I posted this in the wrong chapter heading, intending to put it here. - Angel nerding out again over the ranks - Principalities and Dominions - okay back to the story. - Not sure if I like that addition of the Doubting Thomas. At best, it feels like an over obvious wink to the Bible story, but at worse, it feels like a cliche. I think there needs to be another character, even if he is just a small character. - I liked the scene with the White Face. While I'm a little concerned this could make Hellas too powerful, I'm curious how this plays into the story. - Okay, the addition of Razel makes me even more interested to see Hellas' plan unfold. - I know that the setting is more futuristic than pearly gates, but sometimes I want to see how this plays out. Namely, that there's a media in the Middle Kingdom. It could be Weekly Reader Syndrome, but I was left how media looks in this world. Is there TV? - The hellspawn's appearance seemed a little out of place - like they came out of nowhere during the training exercise, all five hundred o them. It feels really hard to picture. - Overall, I liked this chapter building up Hellas' capability. I'd like to see what happens in the next chapter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuthorityHellas16 he/him Posted January 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Thanks for the feedback guys. Hope you've all had a safe and happy new years as well. First, I think chapter 5 does have use, especially if you tweak it to help us understand the magic system, which is my biggest complaint below. Thanks for calling me out on this Mandamon. I think the poorly explained magic system is a relic of it being largely one massive retcon. Previously I had very little idea of how it worked, as I wrote this story by the seat of my pants. As I revised it, I sort-of bolted on rules and details without seeing if it made sense to the reader. What I've done to remedy this is being much more explicit early on with what my magic system is, largely in the Prologue and in Hellas' training session with Scrios in Chapter 3. To ensure you're not confused going forward, I'll summarise the magic system here. 1. Magic (Forging in this universe) uses Aspect energy, which can be thought of in similar ways to the Force from Star Wars: it's an omnipresent energy source that is present in, and exuded by everything, both living and inert. Even the smallest speck of dust contains Aspect energy 2. In order for Forging to work, Aspect energy must be absorbed through an angel's (or Okhar's) Mark, a unique tattoo-like marking somewhere on their bodies. This is done because otherwise the energy would be drained from their bodies, rendering them unconscious or dead (this is what happens to Hellas at the end of Chapter 6) 3. The absorbed Aspect energy is used to Forge a connection with the Aspect energy in the target, for example an area of ground or a metal object. "Pushing" refers to how much energy must be released by the Forger to Forge the connection; larger, heavier objects require more energy to connect to. The connection is heralded by the appearance of identical runes on the Forger's body and on the target. 4. Once the connection has been Forged, the Forger is able to manipulate the target like a puppeteer, using movements of their body to gain the desired effect. This lends it a bit of martial arts "bending" (from Avatar the Last Airbender) feel. 5. Certain techniques, like lightning or fire, involve simply Pushing the energy without Forging a connection. In the case of using fire, the energy combusts (it's highly volatile) allowing the Forger to Forge a connection with the flames. This makes it quite difficult to control fire with Forging, while lightning is the easiest technique to master. 6. Eclipse energy refers to a reflection of Aspect energy in the Void. It can be found in shadows, given that shadows are a reflection of the Void in realspace. However, Eclipse energy is difficult to use, mainly because a user's body normally rejects it as foreign, in the same way that a child with an allergy reacts to peanuts. Hellas is the only one who is able to use Eclipse energy, and the reason for this is a PLOT POINT! Again, I've tried to lay this all out organically in the text, but I wanted to explain it here so you're not confused going forward. I've also gotten rid of the word "Wraithfire," since it was confusing. Now it's just Forging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuthorityHellas16 he/him Posted January 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Now for the rest of the comments: Interesting, but wasn't Thomas a human? You haven't covered where/how/why humans can become saints or (angels). I'm coming from popular religion here, but that's the only thing I have to go on so far. I do have a system for how humans become angels. Problem is I don't think it's relevant to the story just yet. I do plan on explaining it, but later. Is it too much of a nagging problem? I'm not sure what Hellas is doing here with the White Faces. Why does he want to give them sentience? I'm still iffy on the magic as well, so your description of him Pushing, Touching, and using Eclipse energy doesn't give me more information about what that magic controls. The creation of the White Faces also doesn't seem to tire Hellas in any way or make his use anything. Could he just stand around all day and do this? Hellas' rationale for this was accidentally deleted during my edits. Basically, he uses the White Faces to change the course of battle when the Host can't win by itself. However, because of the pain of using Eclipse energy he can only create a hundred or so, which isn't enough to fight against hellspawn in their thousands (I have added a comment in earlier chapters explicitly saying this, so thanks ). However, he has to concentrate on controlling them, because of the rules stated above; once he Forges a connection he has to maintain that connection for the White Faces to do anything. Otherwise they're just statues. He wants to give them sentience so he doesn't have to control them a hundred percent of the time. "They called me…Raziel." Given Raziel's historical importance, I gave him a statue at the start of Chapter 1 (along with Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel and Elohim), which provides some foreshadowing. "Hellas fell to his knees. His heart pounded against his chest. Sweat streamed from his forehead. He felt every last iota of energy evaporate from his body. " This comes back to Point 2 above; Hellas uses all the Aspect energy stored in his Mark, but he has to keep pounding the hellspawn. So his body uses energy contained in his cells, which keeps his organs working. As he drains energy away from his cells, his body tries to stop it by rendering him unconscious. I have explained this better after you pointed it out, so thanks "Hellas was about to start the exercise when..." no impact here. Soldiers are in a classroom environment, but that is canceled in favor of practical training. But enemy shows up and training is canceled.Frustrating turn, since nothing has happened yet. I'd like to see something engaging, get a little confidence going and see how these people fight before the enemy drops in to spoil things. Consider writing some of the training, and showing the level of competence the soldiers have. Opportunity to provide context to these characters and their abilities. Thanks for pointing this out smgorden. I did actually have a short battle sequence between Hellas' White Faces and the students, but found that it rendered the fight with the hellspawn repetitive and a little boring. So I cut it. I agree that the segue into the hellspawn's arrival is clumsy, so I tried to make it more dramatic, with more focus on Hellas' visceral reaction. Also, thanks for your tips on general writing, they're awesome! Not sure if I like that addition of the Doubting Thomas. At best, it feels like an over obvious wink to the Bible story, but at worse, it feels like a cliche. I think there needs to be another character, even if he is just a small character. A fair assessment rdpulfer. I guess I wanted to have someone who was a little familiar to the reader, after throwing Mor'kai and Demon Gods and everything else at them. I've made it a little less ;) by removing the "Doubter" sobriquet, though. I know that the setting is more futuristic than pearly gates, but sometimes I want to see how this plays out. Namely, that there's a media in the Middle Kingdom. It could be Weekly Reader Syndrome, but I was left how media looks in this world. Is there TV? There is, but once again I try to avoid exposition on every last detail. I try to wait until it becomes relevant to the plot, or the characters are in a position to interact with these little details. Is this decreasing your enjoyment of the story though? The hellspawn's appearance seemed a little out of place - like they came out of nowhere during the training exercise, all five hundred o them. It feels really hard to picture. I guess that's the point. After being told explicitly that the hellspawn wouldn't show up, they do and Hellas and his students pay the price. If you're asking how they got from the mainland to the island, I added in a note that showed them clambering of crappy rafts, which is how they traversed the water. Thanks again, guys. Keep the comments coming! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski he/him Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 Detailed comments below. Another submission full of progress and action (not just battle), but there were several things that did not add up for me. Hellas dismissive attitude to any kind of activity such as administration and teaching (of theory), or even any kind of lowly activity (as he perceives it), that is not glorious and worthy, is very demeaning to many good and noble people. I still don't like Hellas. I'm feeling him less tortured and more petulant and self-absorbed. The guards of heaven having the day off is a big issue for me too. Final major point, there is no cost to Hellas' magic, which makes it feel unremarkable. Still, there are many nice ideas and I continue to enjoy your style, which is very readable and pulls me through the submission with almost no difficultly at all, grammar-wise. Looking forward to the next instalment. ------------------------- "furthest thing on from his mind" "Hellas considered their job description as boring as their clothes were ridiculous" - this is a very dismissive thought. Their goals are worthy ones, are they not? Collecting garbage may be boring (actually, it may well not be!), but would Hellas dismiss all garbage collectors in this way? That's a nasty thought right there. "Michael had promoted him to Field Marshal" - How is it Michael promoted Hellas to a position that is level with his own? Something seemed off with this, to me. I struggle a bit with Hellas' attitude in this Council meeting. Councils are a very necessary part of society. Someone has to administrate, or all would be chaos. As a professional engineer heavily involved in development, I work with many Council officers. Their job may be boring, but it's necessary. I would make sure you stay on the right side of dismissing all pen-pushers just because their job is not glamourous or action-packed. For one thing, your audience will include a substantial proportion of pen-pushers!! Not sure how Elohim is being fraudulent if he's openly avoiding paying attention, at least he's not pretending, although it could be a sign that he is perpetrating fraud by saying on other occasions that he is deeply committed to council meetings. "Here, the shouting drill officers were thankfully very far away" - this phrase seems weird, rather illogical. I'm thinking on the lines of 'There were no drill officers here.' Do cloaks flicker? I know lights / candles do, but cloaks? Also, the line about marionettes, is it supposed to imply that Hellas' efforts at summoning a clone have improved a lot? I didn't think that was entirely clear. Further, you refer to it as an apparition. I think it's implicit that an apparition is insubstantial - but this appears to be solid which, to me, says it's something other than an apparition. I'm troubled by how easily Hellas conceptualises a solid, sensing summoning. Someone must have considered this before, surely. There's nothing to prompt him to try this (it seems to me). Why has he not done it before, because it's too difficult? It's certainly not a complex idea. If it's too difficult then how can he do it so easily? And there is no visible cost or effort involved in this, making it rather boring and unconvincing, I think. I like the description of the void, but I don't really understand the difference between Eclipse and Aspect energies, which I feel as if I should. Have I not been paying attention, I wonder. The capitalisation gets a bit much sometimes. I'm not sure it's necessary to have all these important terms capitalised, you don't lose any meaning from leaving them natural, but it makes the text more legible, I think. "did our time a long time ago" - I didn't understand the sense of this phrase, what idea it's trying to convey. Interesting chapter, some issues though, but I like the introduction of Raziel, which feels uncertain to me, as if this could backfire on Hellas badly. So what happened with the time difference in the void? It seems to have been glossed over. How long was he away and what time does he return? Does anyone miss him? "this approach is largely useless" Again, I think Hellas is brash and short-sighted here. This kind of dismissiveness, I think, shows a weakness in seeing that there is wisdom in the teachings of history and the wise people who populated it. Would he dismiss the writings of Sun Tzu or Machiavelli, or the experiences of Napoleon or Rommel, Alexander the Great? Surely the mistakes of past wars are worth studying. Some of the comments later in this discussion seem to indicate that Hellas does value the lessons of the past, in other words theory based on experience. I don't agree with his comments about the benefits of practical experience, but I do disagree with his initial attitude to theory. One of the students says an army needs conviction that it 'has to win'. This is not the same as conviction that it 'will win', which is what Hellas is talking about. Why is there no way to close Heaven's gates? I don't get that. Another thing troubles me here. Why do they need to rely at all on predictions, why not just keep a permanent guard? How hard can that be? Surely just common sense given all the unrest at the moment, and yet the Host (or the guards) seems to have taken the day off? Makes no sense to me. Hellas goes from fighting furiously to passing out, what happened? I don't see any cause and effect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski he/him Posted January 1, 2016 Report Share Posted January 1, 2016 I'm glad Mandamon mentioned the White Faces, that bothered me to, but I forgot. What also occurs now is that you mention Hellas being in excrutiating pain when he summons a (one) White Face. How does that pan out when he summons 500 of them? I also don't see how he can control more than about 2 or 3 in one battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuthorityHellas16 he/him Posted January 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2016 Thanks as always for the comments, Robinski. Hellas dismissive attitude to any kind of activity such as administration and teaching (of theory), or even any kind of lowly activity (as he perceives it), that is not glorious and worthy, is very demeaning to many good and noble people. I still don't like Hellas. I'm feeling him less tortured and more petulant and self-absorbed. Thanks for pointing this out; I never even thought about it this way. Fortunately it can be easily changed, as it was not my intention for Hellas to come across as dismissive. Why is there no way to close Heaven's gates? I don't get that. Another thing troubles me here. Why do they need to rely at all on predictions, why not just keep a permanent guard? How hard can that be? Surely just common sense given all the unrest at the moment, and yet the Host (or the guards) seems to have taken the day off? Makes no sense to me. This was done deliberately to showcase the incompetence of the Council. They have become so reliant on the Inquisition giving them notice of hellspawn movements that when the Inquisition says there won't be anyone there (rightly or wrongly) they're confident enough to stand down the Host. It's also the reason why there's only a token permanent guard behind the Gates, since the hellspawn have never come close to breaching them. However, I can understand your confusion. There are better ways for me to get my point across, so I'll have to nut that out. Final major point, there is no cost to Hellas' magic, which makes it feel unremarkable. I have changed this, to give more explanation on the costs of Hellas' magic, but I'll go over it again just to make sure. Thanks I struggle a bit with Hellas' attitude in this Council meeting. Councils are a very necessary part of society. Someone has to administrate, or all would be chaos. As a professional engineer heavily involved in development, I work with many Council officers. Their job may be boring, but it's necessary. I would make sure you stay on the right side of dismissing all pen-pushers just because their job is not glamourous or action-packed. For one thing, your audience will include a substantial proportion of pen-pushers!! Haha, I'll make sure not to diss the admin people too much. However, my inspiration for the Council was more governmental bodies rather than local councils or administrative bodies. When I was writing the book, meetings of Australia's Parliament often degenerated into name-calling and childish arguments. I know from watching the news that American or British politics is often no different. That's what I was trying to get across here, that while the civil servants and administration staff keep Heaven ticking over, the selfish, ineffective Council has robbed the city of its ability to progress as a society and as a people. It also mismanages the hell out of the war with Lucifer, which is Hellas' main beef with it. However, I agree that Hellas' dismissal of the Principalities is no less churlish, so that will have to change. Again, I think Hellas is brash and short-sighted here. This kind of dismissiveness, I think, shows a weakness in seeing that there is wisdom in the teachings of history and the wise people who populated it. Would he dismiss the writings of Sun Tzu or Machiavelli, or the experiences of Napoleon or Rommel, Alexander the Great? Surely the mistakes of past wars are worth studying. Some of the comments later in this discussion seem to indicate that Hellas does value the lessons of the past, in other words theory based on experience. I don't agree with his comments about the benefits of practical experience, but I do disagree with his initial attitude to theory. This is the curse of the writer, where I knew in my head what I wanted to say, but didn't communicate it to the reader. Hellas and the rest of Heaven aren't really aware of human strategists, especially when many of those human strategies don't account for magic. When he said it's "largely useless," he was talking about the angel and Okhar strategies of old. With this he was trying to break the students away from the staid old tactics of HIS world's history, because with the hellspawn coming at them more frequently and with new monsters and tactics, the old ways weren't going to cut it anymore. Again, however, none of this was actually SAID, so that's something I'll have to add. Thanks for pointing it out. I'm glad Mandamon mentioned the White Faces, that bothered me to, but I forgot. What also occurs now is that you mention Hellas being in excrutiating pain when he summons a (one) White Face. How does that pan out when he summons 500 of them? I also don't see how he can control more than about 2 or 3 in one battle. This is something I plan on making far more explicit every time he summons a White Face; he is in excruciating pain when he has to summon hundreds of them. But, like I said to Mandamon, I hadn't really figured out the magic system until recently, because it was just one big retcon. Thanks again, Robinski! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrike76 he/him Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 On Chapter Five: I'm going to start by saying that I strongly disliked this chapter, but I think you should keep it. It does need to be expounded upon, however. My biggest problem with the chapter is that I have no idea why Hellas is doing any of what he's doing. He doesn't do anything with a purpose and he seems to be wandering through your story triggering cutscenes and looking for random encounters. - The thing with making the White Face is cool, to a point, but was it just to make a sparring partner or is there more to it than that? I get that the council thing was boring, but it's not like he left with any specific intent, he just disappeared and started making these White Faces appear. - Then he starts wandering about the void, but again without any sort of purpose, and so he bumps into Raziel's spirit, and then he tells him that he wanted a way to bring the dead back to life (not something you telegraphed, this is a big problem), and then saying that he went there looking for people to help him (except that he didn't, he just ambled there). - Raziel saying he'll help is okay, but saying Hellas opened his eyes to what needed to be done is a stretch. Hellas said maybe one sentence, then Raziel info-dumped some Lucifer stuff. It didn't seem like it was too difficult to convince him (he basically convinced himself), and it doesn't seem like bringing a dead Angel back is a difficult thing to do, but I'd have thought it should be. So I'll say that the things that show up in Chapter 5 have a lot of potential, but they're not interesting to me because they don't appear to have any meaning or purpose within the story so far. Chapter 6: P8 - "Hellas had volunteered to take a lesson in combat theory" - I wondered what he had left to learn, but he's the one giving the lesson. This should be cleared up. At this point I think the reader needs more information on your magic system, specifically it's potency, its limits, and its costs. I had a hard time believing that Hellas could go from struggling to make one good White Face to making 100 of them. Is there a cost to his working this kind of magic because there doesn't seem to be a difference to him between making just one and making an army. And once summoned, why not send them against the hellspawn, instead he banishes them and then makes 150 more. If it's so easy why not make 15,000 against the hellspawn? The only thing that really seemed to tire him out was splitting the ground, but I couldn't say I have any idea why that would be the case. I enjoyed the first couple of submissions, but this one started to fall apart on me because of the reasons mentioned above. I don't think this submission had the same sense of direction that the previous ones had, and I don't really have any sense of where the story's going from here. I will keep reading because I am curious to see where you do take it. I definitely like your writing voice, I just think it's unfocused here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski he/him Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Can I change my answer to 'What Shirke said'? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrike76 he/him Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Can I change my answer to 'What Shirke said'? Nope! Copyrighted, trademarked, and patented! At any rate, I'd like to amend my comments above. Robinski is well aware that I have a failing as a critiquer. When I'm reading, and I enjoy it, I keep reading (sounds normal), but when something takes me out of the story (a typo, a badly-worded sentence, a logic or contunuity error) I note it down because I'm already out of the story anyways. The result is that I often have a lot of negative comments and very few positive ones at the end, and it feels to me, upon re-reading my response above, that I came down harder than I would have liked on this particular submission. So I'd like to add: Things I like about this story so far. - Hellas is interesting as a conflicted character. He has a past and an attitude, he's extremely competent in some things (military tactics), somewhat competent in others (his casting) and less so in others (following rules, not being an chull to people). His motivations are cloudy, which I think needs to be addressed, but I think the character himself is fine. - The setting. I like the Heaven besieged by hellspawn and with many technological advances that we see here. I'd like to see more of how it actually works. - The White Faces: All things aside about the how and the why, whether it's a sparring partner or an army, pulling a being out of thin air and giving it a measure of sentience is a neat trick. - The Angels: I've always been a fan. From myths and stories to my well-worn Dictionary of Angels, I like seeing them represented here. If anything, I'd like to see more of their individual strengths, characteristics, and abilities played up as defining elements. Raziel, in this submission, is especially intriguing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinski he/him Posted January 6, 2016 Report Share Posted January 6, 2016 Hmm, I feel no need to change my second answer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandamon he/him Posted January 7, 2016 Report Share Posted January 7, 2016 To follow up with what Shrike said, I'm really enjoying the story, and I try to note that somewhere in my list of negatives. I might actually come across as more negative because I want the story to be even better. I think a revision on the magic system will clear up most of the problems. Going forward, I'll try to pretend I've read your magic explanation and only focus on the new things that pull me out of the story. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuthorityHellas16 he/him Posted January 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2016 Thanks for the feedback, Shrike, both positive and constructive. None of you need to apologise for coming across as "negative" - while it's gratifying to hear you enjoying the story so far, I want to make it the best it can be. Feedback like yours helps me get there because it provides a perspective that isn't clouded by working on the damnation thing for six years! As Mandamon hinted at, the difficulty I have is fixing the problems. Most can be tweaked without affecting the overall plot, but some major changes (e.g. the magic system and the Trinity, which you can see in chapters 7 and 8), require a lot of rewriting and reworking. That's why I occasionally post theses-length responses so I can explain the changes I've made which means you guys won't be confused when you come across them again. Happily, Shrike, many of the issues you've raised are easily (or have already) been fixed: - I agree Hellas needed more explicit purpose with his actions. He improved his White Faces so he wouldn't always have to be controlling him (which removes his ability to fight or issue commands to his other soldiers), and he entered the Void to see if he could bring a spirit back to life to fight for him. This is more explicitly stated now - The issue with the pain has also been remedied. I've toned down the pain when he summoned the first White Face (using words like "twinge") and ramped up the pain when he summons the hundred. This is the limiting factor in his summoning. Thanks again for all your help 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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