Nahel Spren

[ccstat he/him]

In the new Shallan chapter for WoR, Jasnah strongly implies that each order does in fact have a corresponding spren-type.

“I had originally hoped that we would have the same type of spren.... But of course, that would be too easy. I have suspected since Kharbranth that we would be of different orders.”

This idea has been suggested by many, but this is the first thing from the text that comes so close to confirmation.

 

As an honorspren, Syl "binds things", which is a good descriptor for the abilities granted by the dual surges of the Windrunners. Similarly, the cryptics or "liespren" make sense for the dual surges of the Lightweavers, specifically transformation (turning a thing into something it wasn't) and illumination (disguising a thing as something it isn't). 

 

Incidentally, these two orders are directly opposite each other on the chart, as you might expect from the implied polarization between their spren types. A thought on this: If we take these as the "centers" of the Honor/Cultivation divide, then rather than splitting the double-eye left and right it makes Honor's orders include #9 (Stonewarden) through #3 (Dustbringer) and gives Cultivation #4 (Edgedancer) through #8 (unknown). This matches what we know of Wyndle from the Lift interlude.

 

So, the question is, can we infer spren types for the other orders from their respective surges? Here is the latest chart for reference. Also remember Jasnah's division of Honor's spren = emotions, Cultivation's spren = natural forces.

 

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It's late here and I need to get to some other tasks, so I'll save my own speculations for a later post. What are your thoughts?

Edited January 15, 2014 by ccstat

[Swimmingly he/him]

Ccstat, this post really belongs in the Words of Radience subforum. If you have a moment, please move it. Thanks.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

First thought is that WoR posts should be in the WoR subforum. You can get there by clicking "Words of Radiance Discussion" inside of the Stormlight Archive board. But the mods will move it soon...

Anyway, I think some of these will be really hard to guess at considering the word choice makes all the difference. Additionally, I think the spren names that the characters give are their best guesses. So no real guarantee they are the true names. Cryptics and Honorspren are a given I guess. 

I say guess away anyhow! 

Nin-ja'd.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Bloodfalcon

[ccstat he/him]

Sorry. Is there a way to move it myself? I don't see that option.

[Kurkistan he/him]

That's an interesting point on the two orders being diametrically opposed. I'm not 100% behind the need to divide the orders up between Honor and Cultivation, but I can see doing it the way you do if that ends up being the case.

[Swimmingly he/him]

No sweat, you warned all two non-spoiler-craving 17thSharders away well enough - just put spoilery stuff in the right damp corner of our forum in the future. Also, a belated welcome to the community!

[hoser he/him]

Welcome!  Your concern about doing things right is appreciated.

Sorry. Is there a way to move it myself? I don't see that option.

One thing you can do is add the word spoilers to the title.  If you edit the post, then go to "full editor" you can change the title.

Edited January 15, 2014 by hoser

[Chaos he/him]

Moved it for you

[marianmi]

I agree that windrunner spren is the center of honorspren, but I think edgedancer spren is the center of cultivationspren.

But lightweavers spren (cryptics) are also special (maybe center of adonalsium spren?) -- which makes me think there are 4 important spren types -- can't wait to see a stonewarden.

 

I believe Jasnah's spren (elsecallers) has some elements of Honor, although it makes no sense with the surge chart.

Edited January 15, 2014 by marianmi

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I agree that windrunner spren is the center of honorspren, but I think edgedancer spren is the center of cultivationspren.

But lightweavers spren (cryptics) are also special (maybe center of adonalsium spren?) -- which makes me think there are 4 important spren types -- can't wait to see a stonewarden.

 

I believe Jasnah's spren (elsecallers) has some elements of Honor, although it makes no sense with the surge chart.

This is where I think some of those linking lines will come into play. I think they are going to explain quite a bit. 

[Jaconis]

Also remember Jasnah's division of Honor's spren = emotions, Cultivation's spren = natural forces.

Does anyone else feel like Jasnah isn't quite right? Let's look at the order and spren we know the most about.

I think, no matter how else that chart gets categorized, if at all, it's safe to say that Honorspren are nearly entirely of Honor. Assuming one spren type per knight order, we know Honorspren make Windrunners. Windrunners' surges are gravity and air pressure, which are both quintessential natural phenomenon that have nothing to do with emotions.

I think these potentially incorrect categories are the result of lack of knowledge of the spren's true nature. In other words, Honorspren were thought to be windspren until Syl "woke up". I've long thought that flamespren are actually something like Couragespren and world be the binding spren for Order 3.

[marianmi]

Does anyone else feel like Jasnah isn't quite right? Let's look at the order and spren we know the most about.

I think, no matter how else that chart gets categorized, if at all, it's safe to say that Honorspren are nearly entirely of Honor. Assuming one spren type per knight order, we know Honorspren make Windrunners. Windrunners' surges are gravity and air pressure, which are both quintessential natural phenomenon that have nothing to do with emotions.

I think these potentially incorrect categories are the result of lack of knowledge of the spren's true nature. In other words, Honorspren were thought to be windspren until Syl "woke up". I've long thought that flamespren are actually something like Couragespren and world be the binding spren for Order 3.

 

yeah, i think jasnah is definitely wrong. 

plus, where would you put voidspren? emotion or natural forces? what about cryptics (adonalsium spren)?

[hoser he/him]

yeah, i think jasnah is definitely wrong. 

plus, where would you put voidspren? emotion or natural forces? what about cryptics (adonalsium spren)?

I agree that Jasnah is likely partially wrong.

 

I don't know of anything definitively linking cryptics w/Adonalsium. 

 

The following quote suggests otherwise.  We definitely ran into cryptics in tWoK. 

 

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation.

I, personally put Cryptics w/Cultivation and Cognitive. 

Edited January 16, 2014 by hoser

[marianmi]

I agree that Jasnah is likely partially wrong.

 

I don't know of anything definitively linking cryptics w/Adonalsium. 

 

The following quote suggests otherwise.  We definitely ran into cryptics in tWoK. 

 

I, personally put Cryptics w/Cultivation and Cognitive. 

 

"plus, where would you put voidspren? emotion or natural forces? what about cryptics and adonalsium spren?"

 

better?

we know that there are adonalsium spren, so there might be some of them bonding humans...

[hoser he/him]

"plus, where would you put voidspren? emotion or natural forces? what about cryptics and adonalsium spren?"

 

better?

we know that there are adonalsium spren, so there might be some of them bonding humans...

Works for me if it works for you . 

 

I think of the chart as describing an honor-cultivation magic system, so even if Adonalsium spren bond humans, I could see them not being part of the chart and providing different powers.  Likewise, I don't see that voidspren would be on the Radiant surgebinding chart. 

 

I see the left side of the chart being cognitive-related and the right side being spirit-related  I see the top of the chart being more honory and the bottom being more cultivationy.  I could try to set it up as quadrants (Honor-spirit, Cultivation-spirit, Cultivation-cognitive, Honor-cognitive clockwise from the top), but, the only thing I'm sure of at this point is that I'm wrong. 

[ccstat he/him]

 the only thing I'm sure of at this point is that I'm wrong. 

I think you are in good company here. I strongly suspect most of my speculations are wrong.

Speaking of which, here is another one:

Even though I'm not convinced of the need to divide up the chart between Honor and Cultivation, I still look for patterns that might work. One that occurred to me today was to give Honor all the odd #s and Cultivation all the evens, so that they alternate around the ring. I don't think I've heard this version before, though I doubt it's really new here. A couple things this does that other divisions don't:

• Both sets of 5 have access to all the surges
• Every connecting line between orders is now a bond between Honor and Cultivation, making the whole magic system a link between the two of them (or at least their spren). Note: bold means I really like this part. I'm not sold on the division, but this is an element I approve of.

...and you know it's a good discussion when the topic originator gets totally distracted from what he meant to write about. Maybe I'll eventually get back to actually doing the spren-type speculation I intended to do in the OP 

[marianmi]

I think of the chart as describing an honor-cultivation magic system, so even if Adonalsium spren bond humans, I could see them not being part of the chart and providing different powers.  Likewise, I don't see that voidspren would be on the Radiant surgebinding chart. 

 

I see the left side of the chart being cognitive-related and the right side being spirit-related  I see the top of the chart being more honory and the bottom being more cultivationy.  I could try to set it up as quadrants (Honor-spirit, Cultivation-spirit, Cultivation-cognitive, Honor-cognitive clockwise from the top), but, the only thing I'm sure of at this point is that I'm wrong. 

 

Maybe you're wrong, maybe not... but this is not a bad theory.

The only problem I have is that you have "honorspren", "cultivationspren" and "cryptics". Since there are discussions between spren who gets to be called "honorspren" -- there must be more than 1 type of honorspren (so not only windrunner spren, like syl, is calling itself honorspren) -- then I don't see why liespren call themselves "cryptics" and not "cultivationspren".

 

And why are they the lighteyes of spren? With windrunners having the Stormfather as the patron herald, and honorspren being more ... discerning... than other types of spren, I would have thought that, at least in KR times, honorspren were in charge. Maybe cryptics started ruling after the recreance, maybe they were the ones to warn spren that humans would betray spren -- so they were proven right and gained the upper hand -- this would explain also the dissensions between cryptics and honorspren.

Edited January 16, 2014 by marianmi

[11thorderknight]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but we don't know that "Cultivationspren" will be an in-world name. For all we know, the Cryptics are actually mostly of Cultivation.

[hoser he/him]

Maybe you're wrong, maybe not... but this is not a bad theory.

The only problem I have is that you have "honorspren", "cultivationspren" and "cryptics". Since there are discussions between spren who gets to be called "honorspren" -- there must be more than 1 type of honorspren (so not only windrunner spren, like syl, is calling itself honorspren) -- then I don't see why liespren call themselves "cryptics" and not "cultivationspren".

 

And why are they the lighteyes of spren? With windrunners having the Stormfather as the patron herald, and honorspren being more ... discerning... than other types of spren, I would have thought that, at least in KR times, honorspren were in charge. Maybe cryptics started ruling after the recreance, maybe they were the ones to warn spren that humans would betray spren -- so they were proven right and gained the upper hand -- this would explain also the dissensions between cryptics and honorspren.

I now (this has changed w/Jasnah's reveal) think that honorspren and Cryptics are both noble classes of Nahel bond spren.  They compete and dominate in different spren cities.  Apparently several classes of spren that are more H than C think of themselves as honorspren (hence Brandon's comment), although maybe some of the classes that think of themselves as honorspren don't agree that the others are honorspren. 

Cryptics are hidden, encrypted, complex, as are the powers they provide and the name fits for me.  Seemingly no other order of spren claims it.  The honorspren are more straightforward, providing more obvious powers and so is the name.  We will get more about how these spren orders compete and distinguish themselves.  I don't think we know enough to understand the logic of how they name themselves.  Cryptics may well be more of Cultivation than Honor. 

Wyndle's comment about Cryptics and honorspren coming to see his gardens singles those classes out because they are the highest status classes and their attendance conveys the most distinction on his gardens. 

All wild speculation, much of it certainly incorrect. 

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but we don't know that "Cultivationspren" will be an in-world name. For all we know, the Cryptics are actually mostly of Cultivation.

I will probably rage quit the book for a solid hour if I see anything named a Cultivationspren. It's such a yucky sounding term and I hate it. 

[18th Shard he/him]

I believe Syl is a bindspren, which is a subset of honorspren, IIRC.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I believe Syl is a bindspren, which is a subset of honorspren, IIRC.

 

I don't think so.  Bindspren are an "ordinary" variety of spren that appear around objects bound with a Full Lashing.