Amaram: Redemption or Revenge

[lummi]

I understand tha argument about Amaram doing what was necessary, and that he aren't evil, and he only did something evil on need, but this is enough to justify what he did ?

 

I mean there is a highway with 6 fast track to hell paved only with good intetions, it's is easy to justify everthing if you put a "great need" or the "colective good" as ultimate goal, but history is full of "good intentions" with very hard consequences.

 

To me is simple he must aswer for what he did, that is that, after that he could prove all his good intention doing what is right in the right way, not liying, killing and make of the life of others miserable. 

 

=)

 

It's like mr. T said : “It is better for one man to sin than for a people to be destroyed, wouldn’t you say, Szeth-son-son-Vallano?”

[Natans]

It's like mr. T said : “It is better for one man to sin than for a people to be destroyed, wouldn’t you say, Szeth-son-son-Vallano?”

 

Yeah...... the "greatttttt good" it's so convenient  =)

[lummi]

Well read crime and punishment Raskolnikov had some nice thoughts about the greater good. He said some interesting stuff about the duty of some men to sacrifice some people to make the world a better place. But he also ended up in jail later on xd

[blackmagic3]

Amaram is going to be the next high prince after Sadeas dies.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 Most dark eyes carry at least a slight resentment to the brighteyes, but they all believe that it is possible for them to rise in standing. On of the fundamentals of this, that if a dark eye defeats and takes a shard, they become a lighteye. So all dark eyes have a chance to rise. Amaram brole this covenant, he took away the shard and killed and enslaved the dark eyes there. The dream/hope of ever dark eyed warrior, the dreams of child hood of becoming a hero. And this guy took it all away. If this became widely known, then it could potentially fuel a rebellion unless amaran is properly punished.

 I bet Kaladin meets him at one of those soldier party, how will this guy react, a man he sent in to slavery, now the commander of the king's body guard. As a slave no might have believed him, but while officially people would doubt the story, it will cause a lot of rumors and whispers.

[hoser]

A significant number of Amaram's retinue were present when Amaram admitted to Kaladin that he stole the Shards.  There was the stormwarden and Restares that he discussed it with.  There could easily be whispered rumors that Amaram was not entitled to the Shards to build on.

[Tyson]

My oppinions:-

I think Brandon will try and get the reader to warm to/love Amaram throughout the book.

He will come a long way to redemption and provide a powerful emotional battle for Kaladin. Doesn't look like Kaladin uderstans the concept of forgiving (the flashback where his father forgives the townsfolk trying to rob the spheres, Kaladin holds onto the resentment/ he worries his parents will not forgive him for letting Tein die).

But for the story to develop, I think someone has to die.

Kaladin - to important character to kill off in book 2, provides a viewpoint of the journey to radianthood

Dalinar - a possibility though if he dies, so does a united Alethekar, I don't think the series is ready for such a break down in society yet, maybe next book

Shallan - same as Kaladin

Jasnah - Strong possibility, she's a main target of assination, but is the series ready to lose its main source of knowledge on Shadesmar. Plus the introduction of Ivory makes me think he in particular will have a larger role to play

Elohkar/Navani/Renarin/Adolin - character development not totally complete, killing them off now won't have a strong enough effect on the reader or story (E.g. GRRM gets you to really warm to a character then BAM there dead. It cuts you deep, if Adolin died, I'd be like man, that dude was cool but oh well.)

Szeth - too good an opportunity to create a journey to redemption storyline. Though if he switches sides I don't think Taravangians evil mastermind identity if ready to be revealed to Dalinar and co. and it would be a disappointed reveal if Szeth just tells them, lack of drama. Plus he has hidden Gavilars super secret stone. that will need to be brought back into the story. So I survive, but his journey will take him away from the shattered plains.

Sadeas - everyone would love him to die myself included. I think Brandon will have a more imaginative way to deal with Sadeas story

Heralds (Nalan, Taln) - only just met them so surely they can't die yet. Can't wait to see their roles in this book

Amaram - looks like a lot of effort is being put into

developing his background/story/motives. I think Brandon is setting us up for a George R R Martin style kill off.

So my speculation is Amaram and Kaladin will reluctantly team up to protect Dalinar from Szeths attack. Amaram is beaten to the brink of death, Kaladin discovers another ideal in Amarams dying moments (something to do with forgiveness) and unlocks a new surge. Too powerful for Szeth. Szeth discovers he is not ready to die and flees, realising he can choose to disobey the oathstone. He could have chose not to kill all those people. Psychologically unstable Shin Shardbarer seeking redemption.

[Aether]

My oppinions:-

I think Brandon will try and get the reader to warm to/love Amaram throughout the book.

He will come a long way to redemption and provide a powerful emotional battle for Kaladin. Doesn't look like Kaladin uderstans the concept of forgiving (the flashback where his father forgives the townsfolk trying to rob the spheres, Kaladin holds onto the resentment/ he worries his parents will not forgive him for letting Tein die).

But for the story to develop, I think someone has to die.

Kaladin - to important character to kill off in book 2, provides a viewpoint of the journey to radianthood

Dalinar - a possibility though if he dies, so does a united Alethekar, I don't think the series is ready for such a break down in society yet, maybe next book

Shallan - same as Kaladin

Jasnah - Strong possibility, she's a main target of assination, but is the series ready to lose its main source of knowledge on Shadesmar. Plus the introduction of Ivory makes me think he in particular will have a larger role to play

Elohkar/Navani/Renarin/Adolin - character development not totally complete, killing them off now won't have a strong enough effect on the reader or story (E.g. GRRM gets you to really warm to a character then BAM there dead. It cuts you deep, if Adolin died, I'd be like man, that dude was cool but oh well.)

Szeth - too good an opportunity to create a journey to redemption storyline. Though if he switches sides I don't think Taravangians evil mastermind identity if ready to be revealed to Dalinar and co. and it would be a disappointed reveal if Szeth just tells them, lack of drama. Plus he has hidden Gavilars super secret stone. that will need to be brought back into the story. So I survive, but his journey will take him away from the shattered plains.

Sadeas - everyone would love him to die myself included. I think Brandon will have a more imaginative way to deal with Sadeas story

Heralds (Nalan, Taln) - only just met them so surely they can't die yet. Can't wait to see their roles in this book

Amaram - looks like a lot of effort is being put into

developing his background/story/motives. I think Brandon is setting us up for a George R R Martin style kill off.

So my speculation is Amaram and Kaladin will reluctantly team up to protect Dalinar from Szeths attack. Amaram is beaten to the brink of death, Kaladin discovers another ideal in Amarams dying moments (something to do with forgiveness) and unlocks a new surge. Too powerful for Szeth. Szeth discovers he is not ready to die and flees, realising he can choose to disobey the oathstone. He could have chose not to kill all those people. Psychologically unstable Shin Shardbarer seeking redemption.

If Brandon ever pulls a Jordan on us, I think we've found our Sanderson!

[Yalb]

Kaladin cannot forgive him period. Im confused why people would even consider this. Maybe if all he did was steal the shards. And then I could see forgiveness for what done to him. But the man slaughtered his entire squad in cold blood and they were helpless. Isnt one of the ideals kind of big on protecting those that cant protect themselves. I think somthing will happen there. But it will be bad for Amaram. Not death or execution, but more like banishment and humiliation. But forgiveness is rather impossible at this point.

[Chlehrma]

I really don't care if Kaladin kills amaram or not. Really I just want to see the "oh my god I am going to die " look on Amarams face when he sees Kaladin standing with a spear in his hands and anger in his eyes. Plus I want to see what happens when everyone finds out that Kaladin has made a habit of taking down shard bearers--the unnamed Veden and Eshonai.

[vikorr]

What I would like to see is : 

 

Amaram arrives on the Shattered Plains dressed in his shardplate, without the helmet - because he wants everyone to see he is a shardbearer, and to know who he is.

 

He arrives at Dalinars pavilion, and Kaladin attacks him...he goes to summon his sword, but Kaladin has already spear butt ended his head, knocking him out cold (no visible stormlight needed)....Amaram's guard remember who Kaladin is...Kaladin has the urge to kill him, but Dalinar stops him.

[Lorna]

I agree with Yalb on the issue of forgiveness. Amram murdered good men who had faithfully served in his army and had just risked their own lives to save him - men under Kaladin's command.

 

Kaladin doesn't need to forgive him IMHO, but he may be forced to work with him.

 

Seriousness aside, as anyone considered...

 

Kaladin broodily stands guard, while Amram - finally able to breathe again now that he realizes Kakadin isn't going to kill him... yet - discusses important matters with the Kholin men.

Then who does the storm blow in but Jasna, eager to inroduce the betrothed.

 

*Shallan*  So this is Adolin Kholin, famous duelist, heir to a princedom. My future husband. Handsome too. Wow.

After a few apropriately clever and funny comments, "Um, can you hang on a sec? I just noticed I need to kill the dude behind you... the one wearing my brother's shardplate."

[Oudeis]

He's done what he feels was for the best (maybe?), he feels guilty (maybe?), and that's all there really is to it. Amaram's not perfect, but he's not appreciably worse than many of the other people in the world,

 

I mean, sure, he slaughtered a group of men who risked their own lives and watched their brothers get slaughtered, all to save Amaram's own life, then told all and sundry that they were traitors, sold Kaladin into years of slavery, all to punish Kaladin for something Amaram assumed he'd do, just so Amaram could have a lot of glory and honor and fame. I mean, really, who among us can say they haven't ordered the deaths of their own most loyal followers for personal greed? Anyone?

 

And sure, he eats the occasional puppy while it's still alive and crying for it's mother. A man's gotta eat.

 

Amaram did a terrible, terrible thing for terrible, terrible reasons. There's not enough "I'm sorry" in the world. There's not enough guilt. Amaram is an awful person.

 

I'm throwing my voice in here with the people who support the idea that Kaladin is unlikely to say, "Well, sure, I watched you kill my last remaining friends while the final man fell to his knees and begged you for his life... but hey, you seem like a nice enough chum, let's grab an ale!"

 

There's a sentiment I see expressed frequently that, "well as long as the person himself believes he's justified, then he's not really bad." Um... no? Please point me to which villains in really any story admit, "yes, I know what I'm doing is unjustified, I'm doing it anyway, because I admit that I'm evil." That's no one. Believing that what you do is justified doesn't mean it is justified and it doesn't mean you're deep down a good person, it just means you're better at finding excuses than at being a good person.

 

Amaram's awful, and no "redemption" could ever happen until he makes appropriate amends to fix what he did wrong, and that will require enormous sacrifice on his part. If he truly comes to accept, "I made a stupid choice, what I did was inexcusable, I'm a terrible man and the mistake I made that day literally haunts me every waking moment and keeps me awake at night terrified at the monster I've become, and I will spend the rest of my life trying to make up for it," and then does something like risk dying in order to save a group of his own soldiers, then yes. I'll agree that he deserves redemption.

 

What I find more likely is that Kaladin will be faced with the opportunity to administer justice. He truly does have the claim on it. He'll have the opportunity to let Amaram die, Dalinar will be there and will say, "You have every right. Let that man die." And at Syl's urging, Kaladin will instead choose to act with honor, and let justice go, and he will save Amaram's life. And, I suspect, Amaram will at the least be publicly shamed, perhaps will exile.

 

Kaladin is no more likely to take the Plate and Blade than he ever was.

[treblkickd]

It's really fascinating to read the wide range of (often very strong) opinions on Amaram, especially considering how little screen time he's had up to this point.

 

Like many of the character's we've met so far, Amaram has done some bad things. So far he's got a lot in common with Szeth and Taravangian in that he shows an awareness and/or remorse, but believes at some level that he's choosing the lesser of two evils. I think you have to construct an extremely contrived argument to place Amaram into a more extreme category of "badness" or "unforgivable-ness" than Szeth and Taravangian. In terms of sheer scale, both Szeth and Taravangian have probably been significantly "worse" than Amaram (though this kind of comparison is pretty silly given that "worse" here is wildly subjective and not well-defined, and not to mention the whole difference in screen time). Personally, I find Szeth to be the least sympathetic of the three, by far, just because it's not at all clear what would compel him to stick to this ridiculous "Follow orders, no free will." behavior.

 

It's also baffling to see some of the posts in various threads that have labeled Amaram as a psychopath. There has been no psychopathy in what little we've seen of Amaram - quite the opposite actually. He very clearly expressed remorse and empathy when he screws Kaladin over. I guess we can chalk this up to how strongly folks seem to identify with and want to "stick up for" Kaladin.

[Arondell]

 

It's also baffling to see some of the posts in various threads that have labeled Amaram as a psychopath. There has been no psychopathy in what little we've seen of Amaram - quite the opposite actually. He very clearly expressed remorse and empathy when he screws Kaladin over. I guess we can chalk this up to how strongly folks seem to identify with and want to "stick up for" Kaladin.

 

I don't find it baffling.  In and of itself the murder and enslavement of men who just saved your life because you want something one of them has is a loathsome act.  It should generate a strong emotional response.  Was it the act of a psychopath?  No.  On the other hand just because Amaram felt a little guilty about it doesn't make him any more or less deserving of disdain. 

[treblkickd]

Generating a strong emotion response is fine, but words have meanings and you shouldn't just go around throwing the word "psychopath" at things because you don't like them. It's just confusing.

[Loki27]

 

 

For Amaram, I think it will turn out that he has been doing things with the shards that have helped the cause of the 'good guys' a lot and so bring into play the question of whether the ends justify the means.

 

 

There is no scenario where the ends justify the means. He murder the men who actually sought to protect him out of greed. 

 

He wanted the shard blade and took it in cold blood. It sounds a lot more like Sadeus. Amaram is a fake and a phony. The true test of who you are he failed badly. 

[Loki27]

I mean, sure, he slaughtered a group of men who risked their own lives and watched their brothers get slaughtered, all to save Amaram's own life, then told all and sundry that they were traitors, sold Kaladin into years of slavery, all to punish Kaladin for something Amaram assumed he'd do, just so Amaram could have a lot of glory and honor and fame. I mean, really, who among us can say they haven't ordered the deaths of their own most loyal followers for personal greed? Anyone?

 

And sure, he eats the occasional puppy while it's still alive and crying for it's mother. A man's gotta eat.

 

Amaram did a terrible, terrible thing for terrible, terrible reasons. There's not enough "I'm sorry" in the world. There's not enough guilt. Amaram is an awful person.

 

I'm throwing my voice in here with the people who support the idea that Kaladin is unlikely to say, "Well, sure, I watched you kill my last remaining friends while the final man fell to his knees and begged you for his life... but hey, you seem like a nice enough chum, let's grab an ale!"

 

There's a sentiment I see expressed frequently that, "well as long as the person himself believes he's justified, then he's not really bad." Um... no? Please point me to which villains in really any story admit, "yes, I know what I'm doing is unjustified, I'm doing it anyway, because I admit that I'm evil." That's no one. Believing that what you do is justified doesn't mean it is justified and it doesn't mean you're deep down a good person, it just means you're better at finding excuses than at being a good person.

 

Amaram's awful, and no "redemption" could ever happen until he makes appropriate amends to fix what he did wrong, and that will require enormous sacrifice on his part. If he truly comes to accept, "I made a stupid choice, what I did was inexcusable, I'm a terrible man and the mistake I made that day literally haunts me every waking moment and keeps me awake at night terrified at the monster I've become, and I will spend the rest of my life trying to make up for it," and then does something like risk dying in order to save a group of his own soldiers, then yes. I'll agree that he deserves redemption.

 

What I find more likely is that Kaladin will be faced with the opportunity to administer justice. He truly does have the claim on it. He'll have the opportunity to let Amaram die, Dalinar will be there and will say, "You have every right. Let that man die." And at Syl's urging, Kaladin will instead choose to act with honor, and let justice go, and he will save Amaram's life. And, I suspect, Amaram will at the least be publicly shamed, perhaps will exile.

 

Kaladin is no more likely to take the Plate and Blade than he ever was.

Thankyou

[Meamzed]

Right, first post, time to verse a controversial opinion;please correct me if i've made a mistake or a misquote somewhere

 

Amaram, in greed, killed 4 innocent men, and condemned another to a life of slavery; to obtain the ultimate prize; shard blade and plate.

Amaram held council(might be wrong spelling, forgive my barbarism) to Gavilar, in some secret matter. Amaram knows of the void bringers. He said that he bears burdens that Kaladin cannot understand, and he appears to show real remorse and sadness.

 

It is a war. In war, hard choices must be made. Amaram is trained in the blade and plate. Empty rationalizing or not, I can understand why he killed the last of Kaladins squad. I don't condone what he did, be it in greed or a hidden motive we may not know. I really feel for Kaladin; I found Kaladins memories extremely painful to read (i still skip them when listening to the audiobook). 

 

Roshar isn't black and white… a good man can perform evil acts, and a evil man can be redeemed, to a level. I don't think writing Amaram off because some of his actions were evil. I think he still has a role to play.

 

Again, sorry if my post isn't great, I'm not feeling great atm, and can't seem to successfully proofread it >.<

[Tarion]

It's really fascinating to read the wide range of (often very strong) opinions on Amaram, especially considering how little screen time he's had up to this point.

 

Like many of the character's we've met so far, Amaram has done some bad things. So far he's got a lot in common with Szeth and Taravangian in that he shows an awareness and/or remorse, but believes at some level that he's choosing the lesser of two evils. I think you have to construct an extremely contrived argument to place Amaram into a more extreme category of "badness" or "unforgivable-ness" than Szeth and Taravangian. In terms of sheer scale, both Szeth and Taravangian have probably been significantly "worse" than Amaram (though this kind of comparison is pretty silly given that "worse" here is wildly subjective and not well-defined, and not to mention the whole difference in screen time).

I'm not sure I agree.

 

For Szeth, we just don't have enough information.  It's very hard to make a judgement without knowing more.  

 

But for Taravangian, I think the argument is relatively easy to make.  Yes, both are choosing the lesser of two evils, in their own mind, but the difference between the two greater evils is vast.

 

Taravangian genuinely thinks that he has some way insight into the Desolations and how to stop it, or how to best prepare the world for it.  And remember, when he came up with this plan, he was most likely at his best - a genius.  He's doing terrible things yes, but if Dalinar's flashbacks are to be believed, he stands to save as much as 90% of the population.  Of the world.

 

By contrast, Amaram kills a group of loyal soldiers so that next time he gets into a meaningless fight with a neighbour, he can be marginally more efficient at killing them.  It's just so... insignificant, which is what makes it so much worse.  It's very hard to see the gain as worth the cost.  Especially when the "gain" is only really time - A year or two's training in Shards would probably bring the new bearer up to Amaram's skill.  From the PoV chapters with actual Shardbearers, I don't see the skills being that transferable. 

Edited January 30, 2014 by Tarion

[treblkickd]

I'm not sure I agree.

 

For Szeth, we just don't have enough information.  It's very hard to make a judgement without knowing more.  

 

But for Taravangian, I think the argument is relatively easy to make.  Yes, both are choosing the lesser of two evils, in their own mind, but the difference between the two greater evils is vast.

 

Taravangian genuinely thinks that he has some way insight into the Desolations and how to stop it, or how to best prepare the world for it.  And remember, when he came up with this plan, he was most likely at his best - a genius.  He's doing terrible things yes, but if Dalinar's flashbacks are to be believed, he stands to save as much as 90% of the population.  Of the world.

 

By contrast, Amaram kills a group of loyal soldiers so that next time he gets into a meaningless fight with a neighbour, he can be marginally more efficient at killing them.  It's just so... insignificant, which is what makes it so much worse.  It's very hard to see the gain as worth the cost.  Especially when the "gain" is only really time - A year or two's training in Shards would probably bring the new bearer up to Amaram's skill.  From the PoV chapters with actual Shardbearers, I don't see the skills being that transferable. 

 

The "greed" thing that's getting thrown around is just as absurd as the psychopath label. There's nothing in the text to indicate that Amaram is driven by greed for shards - he very explicitly is guilty about betraying his men, and very clearly agonized over his choice. This also relates to all the talk of "the ends don't justify the means", which I think is a phrase that is being misapplied here. Intent matters. Meaning well matters, and no decision is truly made in a vacuum. Killing people is bad but there are obviously circumstances where most of us would consider it ok. Stealing is bad but there are obvious circumstances where most of us would consider it ok. Morality isn't about obeying a discrete list of rules - it's *far* more complex than that.

 

I think Amaram and Taravangian compare rather well, though the scales of what they do are quite different. What matters is that they've both made choices, and they both feel remorse and guilt regarding those choices despite having come to the conclusion that they're doing what's best. The point is that from all the evidence that we have, they are both weighing consequences and attempting to make a good choice. Taravangian is luring sick people to a hospital and then mass murdering a bunch of them. He thinks he can save the world by doing this. Whether he's right is irrelevant, just it's irrelevant whether Amaram is right about weighing the value of a few soldiers' lives against him wielding a shard in the process of doing whatever it is he's doing behind the scenes. People are wrong (ie., mistaken, misinformed, etc) all of the time and terrible things can happen as a result, but being wrong in and of itself doesn't make those people bad people. I don't think it requires too much imagination to at least understand the how and why of Amaram and Taravangian's decisions (where understanding them is not the same as condoning them). 

 

I'm not sure what is meant above about not having enough information about Szeth. He goes around murdering people en masse because a guy holding a rock tells him to. There are plenty of Szeth PoVs that make this pretty clear. He thinks to himself that it's bad to murder people, and he seems to be sad about it, but he keeps doing it. Why? Because the guy holding that rock says so. Szeth's apparent lesser-of-two-evils choice is between obeying the guy holding his oathstone, and, well, apparently anything else? That strikes me as delusional and/or insane, and I think makes Szeth one of the more unsympathetic characters in the book.

 

tl;dr - I think a lot of folks would be well-served to read The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas.

[Tarion]

I'm not sure what is meant above about not having enough information about Szeth. He goes around murdering people en masse because a guy holding a rock tells him to. There are plenty of Szeth PoVs that make this pretty clear. He thinks to himself that it's bad to murder people, and he seems to be sad about it, but he keeps doing it. Why? Because the guy holding that rock says so. Szeth's apparent lesser-of-two-evils choice is between obeying the guy holding his oathstone, and, well, apparently anything else? That strikes me as delusional and/or insane, and I think makes Szeth one of the more unsympathetic characters in the book.

I'm not quick to dismiss someone's religious beliefs in the Cosmere.  They've been proven right before.  There may well be a very good reason that Szeth behaves as he does.  Especially since Stone Shamanism seems to be relatively on the ball.  

 

Or, as you say, he could simply be insane.  At which point, it's very hard to hold it against him (especially as insanity has, in the Cosmere, been shown to open you up to influence from what are essentially Gods).  Insanity would, under most modern legal systems, make him literally no longer responsible for his actions.  

[Moogle]

The "greed" thing that's getting thrown around is just as absurd as the psychopath label. There's nothing in the text to indicate that Amaram is driven by greed for shards - he very explicitly is guilty about betraying his men, and very clearly agonized over his choice.

 

Thank you for making this point. I've argued the same thing before, though obviously not very well since people are still saying Amaram is greedy. Have an upvote!

 

Morality isn't about obeying a discrete list of rules - it's *far* more complex than that.

 

Some people on these forums are fans of Kant's categorical imperative (a surprising amount, actually), so not everyone is going to agree with your statement here. (I disagree with it for reasons relating to language, but I have absolutely no desire to write an essay post on the matter. If you're interested on the why, see if you can't snag a copy of Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. It's dull reading, but very insightful.)

 

I'm not sure what is meant above about not having enough information about Szeth. He goes around murdering people en masse because a guy holding a rock tells him to. There are plenty of Szeth PoVs that make this pretty clear. He thinks to himself that it's bad to murder people, and he seems to be sad about it, but he keeps doing it. Why? Because the guy holding that rock says so. Szeth's apparent lesser-of-two-evils choice is between obeying the guy holding his oathstone, and, well, apparently anything else? That strikes me as delusional and/or insane, and I think makes Szeth one of the more unsympathetic characters in the book.

 

First of all, on Amaram: we know he's fighting against the Voidbringers, just like Taravangian. There's a very good chance that they're a part of the same organization (which would make Taravangian Restares).

 

As to Szeth... yeah, I find myself having a hard time feeling sympathetic towards him. I feel like I should, though. He's been brainwashed (oh look at me being ethnocentric) by his culture, and he's holding an Honorblade, which may contribute to his order-following nature. Denth makes a point in Warbreaker (well, kinda-sorta makes it) that mercenaries are tools of the people wielding them and thus can't be blamed, though I think Szeth would disagree there (as do I).

Edited January 30, 2014 by Moogle

[Chlehrma]

I think Amaram will redeem himself by protecting Kaladin/Dalinar from Szeth and dying in the process. I think Kaladin will bury the secret of how Amaram got his plate and blade, then speak the words of the third ideal. Afterword, Szeth will make another attempt at Dalinar, Kaladin will beat him down and take his blade away from him and bond it. Szeth will cease to be truthless and wander the world bereft of hope, hating himself for the things he did in the name of honoring his oaths.

What I want to see is Amaram exposed to Dalinar and being shamed into giving up his shards.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Tarion]

 

Thank you for making this point. I've argued the same thing before, though obviously not very well since people are still saying Amaram is greedy. Have an upvote!

Whether you see Amaram as greedy comes down, in my opinion, to whether you believe he's sincere when he says that "It will serve Alethkar best if I bear the Shards".  Personally, I simply don't believe it.  It feels like a rationalisation so that he can do what he wants - Take the Shards.

 

As I said, the PoV chapters we get from actual Shardbearers show how little carries over between mundane plate and Shardplate.  If anything, I think that his training would hold him back, compared to someone without any - He's going to have to relearn a lot, and unlearn all of his reflexes.  

 

Also, could you provide a reference for Amaram fighting the Voidbringers?  And I find it hard to believe that Gavilar, while dying, would refer to Taravangian as anything other than "Taravangian", as that's what everyone else calls him.  It makes believing him to be Restares fairly difficult.  And, honestly, would feel like a really cheap misdirect from Sanderson.