13 jan 2014 - yankorro - manticore rose ch 10

[yankorro]

hi there. here's the thread for the latest chapter. have at it.

[jParker]

Well, I'm not really sure what to make of this chapter. There seem to be a ton of inconsistencies, even for a story with a supposedly insane protagonist. 

 

Content

 

First off, how is Rose unable to break the lock, but a peripubescent boy able to on his first try? If memory serves, "manly strength" doesn't come til later. And on a similar note, the tension between the two feels sprung-upon. Yes, there was the visit from the evangelist, but there haven't been a whole lot of exhibitions of conflict.

 

Then there's the Locust Army. They feel exceptionally trite to me--hypocritical Christian extremists? That's been done alot. Granted, I live a short drive away from Westboro Baptist Church, so I may be a mite sensitive, but still, it hardly seems original. And given the creative options with a literal interpretation of Revelations combined with an apocalypse...well, there are other ways.

 

Additionally, the Rose/Prince thing feels completely forced. They've had no hint of sexual attraction before and there's no sign of Rose being loose with sex. In fact, the only mentions you've made of sex are human trafficking; sex as a positive, or even neutral, event is unmentioned. 

 

Style

 

Maybe I'm just now noticing this, but God's body do you like adjectives. Two or three seem to exist in every other sentence. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but with the kind of literature that you seem to be leaning towards, economy of language is key. (If you were writing epic fantasy, on the other hand...Still key. It's always key.) Similarly, Rose seems to have a very objective analysis of her surroundings. If she truly has had mental health problems, she ought to be much more intuitive in her perception of the world (think River Tam). 

 

Furthermore, dialogue seems to be very...monotone? Characters from very different backgrounds have similar speech patterns (e.g. Rose and Prince). Now, I could be wrong--you know more about your world than I do--but it seems like they ought to have very different syntax. And that also helps make reading a lot smoother, being able to identify who is speaking simply by looking at the sentence. 

 

I know this seems like a lot of criticism, but after a long hiatus, I kind of expected something different. I fully expect the same when my turn comes round.

[The Goat he/him]

As in the other things of yours I have read, your descriptions are very well done. The little details you describe about the characters and setting really bring them to life and it is something I admire in your work. However I do feel that some of the character motivations are off at times. For example:

 

I thought the kiss between rose and prince seemed a bit forced, but then again maybe I don't know their history enough to judge. I was just thinking that if, to Prince, she is using the boy as a sex slave, why is he attracted to her? If it were me thinking that I'd be disgusted by the woman. I guess maybe he thought she was a freak or something, and she might let him get in on the action? I don't know but it felt off. Probably a foreshadowing issue for me. If I knew their history, it would make more sense. Later when I saw Prince with the prostitute I understood that he might be some kind of sexual deviant and so he was probably trying to take advantage of her some how, but stopped for some reason.

 

One other time I found the motivation strange, was when Rose was at Princes room and she decided to go with those guys anyway. At least that is where I think she is going. I don't understand why she would put herself in danger like that. Is she literally crazy. If these dudes are dangerous, I don't think any sane person would willingly go off on a trip alone with them without something huge making them go. If I felt like she had no choice, it would make more sense. Like maybe this is her only chance to find out about the manticore, or if she needed to see the army of locusts for some reason that couldn't be avoided.

 

The stuff about the locust army sounds pretty interesting and I want to see what happens with that. I'm sure the trip she is going on will be entertaining to read about, but I think it might help to pepper in a little more reason why she has to go.

 

One other little thing: 

 

in the same paragraph where Prince kisses her, you have two very strange and similar looking words, lugubrious, and languorous. Maybe look into spacing those out more or changing one. They stood out a lot to me.

[The Goat he/him]

Yeah. JParker is right about the adjectives. There are multiple places where you use two words or images to describe something where one would do.

 

For example in only the first paragraph:

 

Together they trudged through the vast dry emptiness. I think vast and empty are expressing similar things. You could probably lose on or the other and not lose meaning. They trudged through the vast dry landscape, or through the dry emptiness. Also, you probably don't need the word together because they is implying they are together unless you say otherwise. We don't think they are trudging through two different vast emptinesses that are miles apart. 

 

The dirt was marked by tracks of goats and their small brown turds. You don't need to say brown. Turds are generally brown. If they were a strange color like pink then you'd need to mention it, but when you say their small turds I immediately think brown.

 

The door was fixed with a slick and shiny new padlock. Shiny new is enough. You don't need slick, unless it is actually slippery.

 

Anyway, it is generally accepted that less is more, but it's a style thing so do what you want. Like I said before, I actually like your descriptions a lot. I feel like that is the weakest part in my writing, and I like the way you do it. Just look at economizing where you can.  

[andyk he/him]

I like the fact that the kid wants to go back to his family once things get tough. It's a good way of reinforcing his youth and vulnerability, the inequality between these characters, and it helped to change the dynamic. That said, might it have been more interesting if he was still there when Prince turned up all concerned about the rumours about Rose and the boy?

 

Milton's developing into an intriguing mystery - I think he's at just the right level of mysterious and hidden objectives, without tipping over into forced or annoying. And he seems to serve the purpose of moving the plot along.

 

That said, Milton's purposeful moving things along highlights just how much Rose isn't doing this. If she's obsessed with the manticore I'd at least have expected her to leap more decisively on the opportunity to maybe see a manticore's paw, especially after so much fruitless searching.

 

And I agree that the Rose/Prince thing feels a little forced. It's not completely out of left field, given earlier events, I'd just have liked a little more build up before he made his move.

[yankorro]

Wow, y'all are starting the new year off in fine fighting form, I see...  

 

As usual, here's me sussing out the fixes:

 

>"supposedly insane protagonist"  - Have I really given the impression that Rose is insane? When? A little off, maybe.

 

re: the lock - point taken. Will fix.

 

>"hypocritical Christian extremists? That's been done a lot."

 

>"And given the creative options with a literal interpretation of Revelations combined with an apocalypse...well, there are other ways."

 

The 'locust army' is actually inspired by the Book of Joel and the book of Revelations. I may play around with the exposition a bit in this scene, spruce it up. It does kind of just lay there on the page, which I think contributes maybe to the sensation of triteness.

 

Rose/Prince - I figured that would be the reaction. In a sense, it's supposed to come out of nowhere. Rose experiences it as coming out of nowhere, hence her shocked and mortified reaction. But yeah, could probably use a little judicious foreshadowing.

 

re: the adjectives - I huess I kind of see what you're getting at. Still, after a couple of run-throughs this morning I still only see two, three max, that I'd want to take out. (oh, and the 'lugubrious and languorous' thing was a good catch, thanks)

 

>"after a long hiatus, I kind of expected something different"

 

Oh, I wasn't referring to a hiatus from writing, I meant a hiatus from subjecting you guys to it   The story is finished, has been for a while now. Right around 40K, so a longish novella, like my previous one.

 

In fact, I was kind of thinking about posting the rest of it in the 'Alpha Readers' space and let anyone who's interested have a look at it there, rather than reading it all at fits and starts. Sound like a good idea?

[Robinski he/him]

Hey, I'm certainly a fan of the Alpha readers forum - although I'm almost caught up with the chapter submissions. Also, at the risk of jumping ahead (but I couldn't help noticing the 'insane' quote), as of the end of Chapter 8, I really don't get a sense of Rose being insane at all - maybe that's waiting for me in 9 and 10!

 

But if it's opinions your looking for, I don't mind the episodic nature of weekly submissions.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Robinski

[Mandamon he/him]

Some notes made before reading the comments:

 

At the beginning, Maxi seems very reluctant.  Not sure if it's because it's been a while since I read the last chapter or something else, but why is he suddenly so sullen?

 

Strange that the lock broke the first time a kid hit it, when a grown woman couldn't bash it with several hits.  Maybe she "loosened it?"

 

Also, she doesn't go after Maxi at all?  Shades of Prince.  Rose seems to have real trouble holding on to her friends.

 

pg 2: "Her bones ached and her stomach cramped, and at night"

--I guess she's sick now?  It seemed to happen suddenly, as if it was connected to Maxi leaving for "plot," so she couldn't go after him.  

 

pg 2: "Prince was standing with his top hat and monocle firmly in place."

--Aha!  It's like Superman: Maxi and Prince are played by the same actor and are never seen in the same place!

 

pg 3: Wait...what?

Prince is also wondering about the sex slave thing (which I still don't believe), then he kisses her, then there are palm lines involved, then Rose is a prophet?  I don't think any of these things have been mentioned before....

 

pg 4 and 5 seem to be more into the main plot of the book, and I'm on board with this part.

pg 7: "Those people are absolutely, one-hundred-percent certifiably insane."

--ah...they seem saner than the main characters and their random, rash actions.

 

 

Most of my thoughts are in line with what everyone else is saying.  I think the charge of insanity comes from one description somewhere that Rose was a little unstable.  Plus, she was in prison for some reason, plus, she makes absolutely spur-of-the-moment decisions with seemingly no thought to what might happen afterward.  Plus, she's chasing (not very well, imo) a mythical beast that no one else really believes in.  Insane?  If not, then signs point to at least partial bipolar disorder.

 

No real problem with the Locust army.  I think they'll generate some much needed action in the story.

 

As for Alpha Readers, I agree with Robinski.  If it's finished and you're looking for overall feedback on the rest of the arc, go for it (I'm guessing we're at least half done anyway).  If you want more specific comments how each chapter works, the weekly submission is better.  Although in my experience, having posted several chapters of several books, after a point, the chapter-wise feedback isn't as helpful because you start getting the same comments (good description, too little action, Rose is crazy, she made a strange decision...) and readers can't see the overall plot for the individual nitpicking in the chapters.

[Robinski he/him]

My comments on reading the chapter are below, but some observations on the other feedback. Firstly, I'm not sure I agree entirely about the adjective comment - I'm a big adjective guy, I accept you can have too much of a good thing, but it can be a style choice. E.g., '...small brown turds.' I think that sounds much better than 'small turds' because of the cadence you get at the end of the sentence from those three monosyllabic words in sequence.

 

Also, am I the only one who remembers the conversation between Prince and Rose where she took his hands and pointed out the love lines? As I commented then, I think it was unclear whether she was coming on to him, whether she was saying she was the second love of his life, I thought not, which made her behaviour then confusing to me and to him!!

 

I also agree that her (apparent) decision to run off with the journalists into the arms of these dangerously 'insane' locust chaps seems rather bizarre. I just don't see what she has to gain, some old manticore paw that may or may not exists? Maybe if the frustration of her fruitless searching over all those months had been played up (by examining her thoughts), it would feel more logical for her to reach out to that distant hope, no matter what the risk. But even at that, I'm not entirely convinced by Rose's pursuit of the manticore in the first place, although she does set out her reasons again in this chapter. I think that needs reinforcement at other points in the preceding chapters.

 

------------------

 

Rose certainly does have a talent for driving people away, but it’s not entirely surprising that Maxi left, she certainly didn’t treat him particularly well in terms of how she spoke to him, at least that’s what I took from some of their interaction. She actually has a very curt manner a lot of the time, and doesn’t really endear herself to people.

 

I think I'm as puzzled as Prince by Rose’s reaction when measuring against her (apparently) coming on to him a bit before, I must have misread that signal too, although I think I expressed some doubts in my comments on that chapter.

 

I am curious about Milton’s philanthropy, maybe it’s just my cynicism, but he seems a bit too avuncular to be true sometimes.

 

Using ‘the madam’ sounds clumsy, I don’t think it matters what name you use, the context of the sentence is probably good enough to convey that it’s a madam that he’s referring to. Also, I don’t quite understand ‘this one’s on me’ – sounds like he’s the lover-boy in the scenario – he isn’t is he?!! If in fact he’s only saying that he’ll pay, that seems redundant, as he’s the one who has called off the transaction and can probably presume he has to pay in that situation.

 

The exchange in which he says he’s been thinking about nothing in particular seems completely redundant.

 

I'm not really convinced by the sudden vault face in their relationship. He leaves her in the desert after a huge bust up. He comes to her in the cabin and tries to demonstrate the strength of his feelings and she reacts violently, they part again. Then it’s all put behind them with a couple of words exchanged. They are surely sweeping their true feelings under the carpet, why, for the sake of cordiality? I found that hard to believe.

 

There’s still a lot of good writing in these chapters, I'm just not entirely convinced by some of the behaviour. I'm not sure if you’ve had a chance to look back at the comments I’ve left on the earlier chapters in the last week or so. Sorry I'm just catching up now, but hopefully there’s something useful in there. I'm still keen to read on, whether weekly or in the Alpha thread.