Jimmy moon Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 There seems to be an incncistency in the way I understand Allomantic Pushes and Pulls. Maybe someone can clear it up for me. In Mistborn: The Final Empire when Kelsier is teaching Vin about Allomancy, he says that "the force of your Push or Pull is directly away from or toward you". So for example, an Allomancer couldn't lift a coin up off a table unless s/he was directly above or below the table. This seems at odds with a scene we see later in training, on page 153. Vin and Kelsier have a coin between them and are each pushing on it, trying to force it at the other person. "The coin quivered in the air, trapped between the amplified strength of two Allomancers." How can this be so? If the coin is directly between the two's centers of mass , the coin should be falling down due to gravity. Each Allomancer is pushing the coin in a horizontal direction. Their two Pushes are cancelling each other, which is why the coin isn't moving toward either person. But their pushes have no effect on the coins movement in a vertical plane. With no upward force acting on the coin, it should fall to the ground. If the coin is above the two of them, the vertical components of their Pushes should send the coin flying into the sky. If the coin is below the two's centers of mass, their Pushes would send the coin into the ground. The only way the coin should be motionless in the air is if the coin was slightly above the two's centers of mass, so that the slight upward vertical components of their pushes held the coin up. There would only be one point in space where this case would happen, and any flaring of metals would send the coin into the air. I think similar situations to this occur throughout the MB books. Brandon is usually really good about meshing his magic systems with physics, so I'm wondering if there's not something I'm missing here. I'd appreciate anyone's insight on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 The only thing I can think of is that it's like holding a coin between two fingers. The force of the two Pushes act like fingers. And with the center of mass issue, I think that Brandon was bending the rules a bit to make it more awesome. Yes, I'm pulling the Suspension of Disbelief card on a Sanderson book, but they're swallowing metals and getting superpowers from them, though, so the card was first played by Sanderson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy moon Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I don't think the coin between two fingers fits with what we know about Allomancy. A coin between two fingers is held up because the fingers exert a friction force on the coin. The air around a coin can't exert friction, because the air isn't being pushed against the coin, the coin itself is being pushed. By Suspension of Disbelief do you just mean that the magic and physics don't fit together well in this instance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 By Suspension of Disbelief I mean that that's why the coin doesn't go flying upwards. And yes, magic and physics don't do well together in this instance. Also with your gravity thing, there are a number of places where we learn, basically, that gravity in the Cosmere is not constant, even on a particular planet. Iron Feruchemy, for example, decreases your weight but nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) This question has been asked (of Brandon) before, and I believe that the general consensus is that steel and iron do exert friction on the objects they affect. bwahahaha! I edited so quickly you'll never know what I misspelled! Edited December 12, 2015 by Kaymyth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 We had a massive discussion on this a while ago, I was of the opinion that it was simply a matter of the coin coincidentally being at a position where the vertical components of both pushes cancelled out but others thought there was some kind of friction.Brandon was asked and did say that allomantic pushes do exert friction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy moon Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 That makes total sense then! Thanks a bunch guys. WoB's save the day once again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Well, in fact the friction is about surfaces moving against each other. So if you held a coin between two frictionless objects, no matter the forces you exert on them, the coin will fall. So since allomantic external physical forces are basically telekinesis and there is no touch... There cannot be friction. But I'm willing to ignore that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Well, in fact the friction is about surfaces moving against each other. So if you held a coin between two frictionless objects, no matter the forces you exert on them, the coin will fall. So since allomantic external physical forces are basically telekinesis and there is no touch... There cannot be friction. But I'm willing to ignore that I think someone had a theory that it kind of projects force outwards from the surface of your body so it'd be unevenly distributed and produce some friction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) I think someone had a theory that it kind of projects force outwards from the surface of your body so it'd be unevenly distributed and produce some friction. Distribution of forces is irrelevant. Friction is about surfaces going against each other and how smooth they are, force you use is just a factor. If you have a infinitely smooth surface, then friction factor drop to zero and there is no friction, no matter the force. With Pushing there is nothing touching the coin, so no friction. Edited December 12, 2015 by Oversleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 Distribution of forces is irrelevant. Friction is about surfaces going against each other and how smooth they are, force you use is just a factor. If you have a infinitely smooth surface, then friction factor drop to zero and there is no friction, no matter the force. With Pushing there is nothing touching the coin, so no friction. Distribution of force is why the surface matters, it creates opposing forces that restrict movement. The idea is that the projected force would act exactly as though your body were pressed up against the surface of the coin, rather than the single line of force between your center of mass and its'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) So what, the theory is that Allomancer's body somehow touches the coin? Weird. Edited December 12, 2015 by Oversleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ninja Yodeler Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 (edited) Considering bothe eras of Mistborn take place before the knowledge of atoms and quantum forces, its no wonder the explanation isnt in the books. I'll go ahead and assume they will figure all this out in depth in eras 3 & 4. Edited December 12, 2015 by The Ninja Yodeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy moon Posted December 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 There's also the possibility that "friction" simply isn't the correct word for the Pushing force that stops the coin from falling. Friction comes from two surfaces rubbing together. This clearly isn't happening with the coin. Brandon said that Allomantic forces exert friction; it seems to me that this was a misuse of the word friction. Perhaps Brandon meant to say that there is a Allomantic force analoguous to the physical force we call frictoin that holds the coin up 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaeggs Posted December 13, 2015 Report Share Posted December 13, 2015 It could also be some Instinctive Allomantic Thingawhatchamacallit that lets them push the coin in such a way that it does stay up in the air, maybe by pushing more on the bottom of the coin than the top, or vice versa. I don't know how this would work, but I think it's possible. After all, remember how Kelsier windmilled metal bars just before his death to protect the skaa from arrows. Also, only one of them would need to have the Instinctive Allomantic Thingawatchamacallit needed to push the coin in such a way as to keep it up. Also, another possibility is that the two forces of their pushes made the coin slightly concave on both sides. After all, the coin was flattened. This would, I believe, give them purchase to keep it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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