hoser Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) The following sections seem interesting together. Jasnah seems to have had an interesting history about which we get only glimpses. When Jasnah kills the four thieves (tWoK chapter 36): "...Besides, men like those ..." There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before. What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it? Chapter 1, WoR “It doesn’t bother you at all?” Jasnah said. “The idea of being beholden to another, particularly a man?” “It’s not like I’m being sold into slavery,” Shallan said with a laugh. “No. I suppose not.” Jasnah shook herself, her poise returning. Jasnah loses her poise at the thought of being beholden to a man? Does it seem like being sold into slavery to her? Prologue, WoR She took it as the rebuke it was, and found herself blushing. Even her mother Navani could not do that to her. “Perhaps if you found pleasant associations,” Gavilar said, “you would enjoy the feasts.” His eyes swung toward Amaram, whom he’d long fancied as a potential match for her. It would never happen. Amaram met her eyes, then murmured words of parting to her father and hastened away down the corridor. Is Amaram one of the men she has a negative history with? Maybe Kaladin is not the only one who has seen his dark side. Edited January 24, 2014 by hoser 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I'm not so sure it was Amaram in particular. It seems more like Jasnah has just sworn off all men. Still not sure what happened to her. Potential suitor gone horribly wrong with near-rape or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) Amaram's quick departure may indicate that they have had unpleasant interactions in the past. Either that or he's just sensing her ire at men in general. Edit: This is a joke. She's probably dressing up to maintain the image of a powerful person, as her later discussion with Shallan indicates... Edited January 10, 2014 by Shardbearer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I think his quick departure was because of Gavilar's orders. I think Amaram has more pressing things than chasing Jasnah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Kaladin revenge will be make Jasnah fall for him, so Amaram will know that Kaladin is better man that him. (Just joking) =) Serious, Jasnah have deep issues with relationships, see they way that she talked with Shallan about Adolin. Another thing is that Navani looks like to match couples. Also Jasnah have some issues with the mother. My guess is that Navani tried to make some match for her daughter with very bad results, and Jasnah could be inside of the shell a romantic wainting for someone tha would complete her. Or the classic she was abused in some away. My guess a little of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) I'm not so sure it was Amaram in particular. It seems more like Jasnah has just sworn off all men. Still not sure what happened to her. Potential suitor gone horribly wrong with near-rape or something? However Jasnahs love life unravels (whether it's Kaladin, Amaram, Shallan or Unnamed Extra), I hope rape is not involved. It's an overused trope, and I can see how it might be used for her character- her reaction to the criminals in the alley, for instance- but I'd rather if it wasn't the answer. People can just be uninterested. It might be nice if Jasnah was just completely uninterested in romantic relationships. Edited January 9, 2014 by Quiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I don't think she's uninterested, I think she's actively rejecting marriage, at least for herself. It's pretty clear in the way she brings up her plan to marry Shallan off to Adolin. Shallan remarks that it's the first time she sees Jasnah unsure of herself, almost as if she's bracing for Shallan to be deeply offended, despite it being a great idea (from a practical aspect, and in the context of Vorin culture). I think Sanderson is writing Jasnah as a person born in the wrong place at the wrong time. A free thinker in a society of strict conformism. And for what it's worth, her thoughts on marriage aren't unique to a woman with some dark secret in her past. IRL, feminists have often pointed out that marriage was historically an institution that objectified and commoditized women, often in a very explicit way, and many campaigned quite strongly against it. And they definitely had a point. Shallan, on the other hand, is still very much a product of her culture, and sees nothing wrong with an arranged marriage, provided that the guy is a good catch. Sanderson's juxtaposing their very different worldviews to great effect here, much the same way he juxtaposed their religious beliefs in Way of Kings. On a side note, did anyone else get a very strong sense that the Jasnah of the full prologue was a completely different character than the Jasnah of the snippet released earlier? The first version seemed like the present-day Jasnah: confident, in control of herself and her surroundings, always 5 steps ahead of everyone else with at least 2 contingency plans for any situation. The Jasnah of the full prologue, on the other hand, is much less self-assured, rolling with events as they happen. We see the strong person she can be, but we know she's not there yet. It was almost like reading the childish, bratty Moiraine sections of New Spring and comparing her to the poised Aes Sedai of The Eye of the World. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 @11th Order: "We all are many people" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) On a side note, did anyone else get a very strong sense that the Jasnah of the full prologue was a completely different character than the Jasnah of the snippet released earlier? The first version seemed like the present-day Jasnah: confident, in control of herself and her surroundings, always 5 steps ahead of everyone else with at least 2 contingency plans for any situation. The Jasnah of the full prologue, on the other hand, is much less self-assured, rolling with events as they happen. I found your post insightful. Many upvotes for you! I agree. It sounds like she might have just learned to fake it more effectively since the Prologue, though. I wouldn't be surprised if she felt much the same 6 years later, but had just learned to plan more. Plus, she has the spren to point out things she's missed... not that they seem very forthcoming, given how angry they are with humans. It was also just a bad night for her - admitting her heresy, accidentally getting the daylights scared out of her by spren, then seeing her father die in front of her would ruin anyone's plans. Jasnah doesn't deal all that well with surprises. She has contingency plans, sure, but Shallan revealing she knew Jasnah could Soulcast caused a very visible reaction iirc. Edited January 9, 2014 by Moogle 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) accidentally getting the daylights scared out of her by spren don't you mean "getting the stormlight scared out of her"? Pardon me. I am horrible! EDIT: Permit me to say: "lulz". I cannot believe this terrible pun gave me my most up-voted post ever. xD Edited January 10, 2014 by Aether 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Looter Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 @ 11th order, I am not sure I can really agree on your take on feminists, I think brandon might though, which would be interesting considering thepower structure of Alethi society is so heavily geared towards women holding the reins of actual power. But having all responsibility fall on men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknowingly Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Do you guys think the problem might not be her past with men, bad or good, that is creating this aversion to the thought of being with men. Perhaps Jasnah is just not attracted to men in general Perhaps Jasnah is a Lesbian? I'm probably completely wrong but I think it would be quite interesting to see how a woman that is lesbian would fit into a society like Alethkar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 However Jasnahs love life unravels (whether it's Kaladin, Amaram, Shallan or Unnamed Extra), I hope rape is not involved. It's an overused trope, and I can see how it might be used for her character- her reaction to the criminals in the alley, for instance- but I'd rather if it wasn't the answer. People can just be uninterested. It might be nice if Jasnah was just completely uninterested in romantic relationships. I do think her reaction to the criminals in the alley indicates something bad happened to her and/or a friend or relative. I would guess that it was not done by any current characters, because her relatives would not react well. Possibly she got captured during the unification wars at some point. Overall, though, I think she's mostly just not interested. She gets on well with all the male characters who are not trying to murder her, but mostly just seems interested in her studies. And since men who are permitted to marry aren't allowed to read, she probably doesn't see all that much point. Though I would suggest she probably does have some specific grievance against Amaram, although quite possibly just that he was annoying, or she wouldn't have objected to a political marriage. Or it could be that if she married someone she'd be obligated to support them, which would include not being a legendarily outspoken heretic and doing their paperwork instead of researching. She might like Kaladin; he's scholarly as Vorin men go, so she could actually have a conversation on things she's interested in, and because he's a darkeyes he wouldn't be in a position to order her around and doesn't have authority to undermine. I am not sure I can really agree on your take on feminists, I think brandon might though, which would be interesting considering thepower structure of Alethi society is so heavily geared towards women holding the reins of actual power. But having all responsibility fall on men. I would not say that women hold the reins of actual power. While women do perform much of the critical work to keep the society functioning, that is very much not the same as being in charge. I mean, historically Charlemange couldn't read or write with any ability, but he was most definitely in charge, and he was hardly the only illiterate ruler. In the warcamps, Dalinar decides what needs to be done and then his subordinates, male and female, do it. Ultimately, he's the one who decides where the army goes and who it fights. That's the highest form of actual power; if the person nominally in charge doesn't command the loyalty of the military they tend to get replaced. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Do you guys think the problem might not be her past with men, bad or good, that is creating this aversion to the thought of being with men. Perhaps Jasnah is just not attracted to men in general Perhaps Jasnah is a Lesbian? I'm probably completely wrong but I think it would be quite interesting to see how a woman that is lesbian would fit into a society like Alethkar. Don't know, in particular I don't like this kind of reasoning, "If she don't have a man she like women" very much. Indeed is a valid possibility but I'm more inclined to think the reason that she didn't married someone is the same reason that she don't believein Vonirism. She didn't find the "reason" to do so, or put in a more "romantic" way she didn't find her match. Gavilar stinged her in this exatcly same way,"You are so smart that nobody are good enough to you". If i'm reading her correctly,(and must assured I'm not =)) She is just to strong mind to accept less then the "ideal" match. Edited January 9, 2014 by Natans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted January 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 I have thought that Jasnah was more interested in women than men before. The strength of her reactions as highlighted in the OP is actually the best evidence I see for her being interested in men. The "It would never happen." and her not saying a word to Amaram, who she had apparently known for a long time, seemed to indicate a history and maybe even an emphatic rejection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 She could always dislike the idea of being forced into traditional gender roles; she rejects the "feminine arts" as useless. She may have not really liked Amaram, knew her father would not press the issue and thought that being married would inhibit her travels and scholarship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bremen Posted January 9, 2014 Report Share Posted January 9, 2014 Perhaps Jasnah is a Lesbian? This was my thought as well. Given the way Jasnah was surprised by Shallan's reaction to an engagement to a 'man'; I think Jasnah assumed that since Shallan used the same powers as her that Shallan was like her in other ways as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlehrma Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Do you guys think the problem might not be her past with men, bad or good, that is creating this aversion to the thought of being with men. Perhaps Jasnah is just not attracted to men in general Perhaps Jasnah is a Lesbian? I'm probably completely wrong but I think it would be quite interesting to see how a woman that is lesbian would fit into a society like Alethkar. This was my thought as well. She might even be a "heretic" just to distract observers from other truths. It could also be that she is just dramatically inept regarding sexuality and so focuses her entire life upon the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 It is also perfectly possible that she's asexual. There are people around who just aren't that attracted to other people. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Just who is Jasnah dressing up to impress? Maybe Shallan? Maybe that's why she's so uncomfortable in mentioning the prospect of marriage to Shallan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoibheann Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 @hoser - I'm with you. Jasnah has had some negative history with someone. My first thought on reading the WoR prologue was possibly Amaram. Perhaps it was even as simple as the two of them talking about what a potential relationship would look like. He wanted a really smart clerk, she wanted to research the world. This may have made her feel like the relationship would/could be akin to slavery. @Shardbearer - Jasnah could be dressing to uphold the image she wants others to perceive. Alethi culture does not seem to react well to those who dress beneath their station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Just who is Jasnah dressing up to impress? Maybe Shallan? Maybe that's why she's so uncomfortable in mentioning the prospect of marriage to Shallan... I'll be honest, the entire time I was reading about Shallan thinking of Jasnah as 'divine', I was thinking that. I think it's unworkable, though, and would second the idea of Jasnah being asexual. She dresses the way she does to promote the idea of her being royalty and having power, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'll be honest, the entire time I was reading about Shallan thinking of Jasnah as 'divine', I was thinking that. I think it's unworkable, though, and would second the idea of Jasnah being asexual. She dresses the way she does to promote the idea of her being royalty and having power, I think. Yeah, I'm mostly just joking. Shallan really doesn't seem to swing that way, so even if Jasnah does, nothing is likely to come of it. As for Shallan's thinking about how Jasnah looks, I think it is common for women to compare themselves to other women? Or maybe that's the common percepction, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aether Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 It might just be a power game for her. She said herself that power is mostly an illusion. The way she dresses would help maintaining that illusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natans Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 Doing the math about this matter. Jasnah talked fondle about someone (ardent) that gived her the Book of Eendless pages, gender unknow. +She only have "sisters" in the Veristilian sect. +She point to Shallan that she would lose "freedom" if she married a "man". +She was cleary worried about Shallanm more then even the would be bride, about her engament it Adolin +She dress to kill even when she didn't need. +She respect inteligence above all. +She thinked that she would NEVER marry Amaram +She talked about the robbers with extreme prejudice = I'm without a clue about this matter =) My best guess is that to her marry would be lose freedom, and debase herself to be limited for a "inferior mind", alas, almost none Alenthi man have enough knowlegde to hold a candle to her. She simplely don't have in her whole society a match to her life style, so she kind don't believe that she should marry a man, because she wouldn't have a intelectual match and potentialy she would be limited for her would be husband. It kind remember me the feminist ideal in the 60's 70's. She just don't take part in something that she don't believe, Vorin gender segregation. Power to the women =) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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