Dec 7 2015 - Rohyu - Lucifer Chp 2&3 (L,V)

[rohyu he/him]

Any and all feedback is appreciated .

[Mandamon he/him]

pg 8: "Yes. No need to look so confused. I need to take care of some people, and you love killing. After all the years the act of killing has become mundane, but watching others fight to the death...” 

--I think you said last time that the recent one was the second person he killed, so the act couldn't have become mundane.

 

I like that we find out what's up with Daryl.  I didn't get that he had Down's syndrome from the prologue.

 

Honestly I have a hard time with any sympathy for the character, which made reading this hard.  I'm guessing I'm not really the target audience for this.  He's basically a horrible person in every way, except for his brother.  However, he's led Daryl to believe that killing is fine, which isn't really a good message.

 

So far, each person the MC kills has barely any description, and then is killed horribly.  Evidently the person he killed in the last chapter was a girl that was breaking into houses.  By the descriptions, I don't think we could even know it was female.  Yes, she broke the law, but I'm having a hard time justifying her brutal murder. The gunman in this chapter I have less of a problem with, but there's still no effort to see them as anything but a body to be killed.

[rohyu he/him]

Thanks Mand .

 

pg8: I meant Lucifer felt that killing had become mundane. I'll have to clarify.

 

I changed the intruder from a male to a female after submitting chapter 1 last week. I'll have to go back and make sure it is clear though. I should have mentioned that, sorry.

 

I think I'll give the MC and Daryl a dog and have the intruder kill the dog when she breaks in. Would that make the unnecessarily violent murder seem a little less crazy in your opinion? 

 

I never go into much detail about who the MC kills other than their crimes; it's more about the MC's reaction to everything. I'll have to decide if this is a good idea or not though.

 

Thanks for reading something in a genre you normally wouldn't read .

[rdpulfer he/him]

Sorry for the delay! 

 

- The opening of the chapter feels a little too expository. It seems like you could make it cover more ground through dialogue, and that way establish that the Detective remembers the MC through dialogue rather than telling.

 

- Do make-up have fumes powerful enough to disorient someone like this?

 

- I feel like Lucifer needs to sweeten the pot. At this point, he's not making a deal with the MC. He's just involving him in a mutual interest. Plus, from what Lucifer says, the MC will be destined to join him in hell, so maybe if he helps Lucifer, that won't happen (or so the devil says.)

 

- I like the MC and Daryl's conversation while playing Streets of Rage. 

 

- Now I'm really curious how the MC's turn as a "hero" affects the story. 

[rohyu he/him]

Thanks RD. I think adding more dialogue between Anthon and the MC to show their relationship is a great idea. 

 

Do make-up have fumes powerful enough to disorient someone like this?

The disorientation came from the concussion caused by the cops, and the fake seizure. It seems that may not be clear though.

 

- I feel like Lucifer needs to sweeten the pot. At this point, he's not making a deal with the MC. He's just involving him in a mutual interest. Plus, from what Lucifer says, the MC will be destined to join him in hell, so maybe if he helps Lucifer, that won't happen (or so the devil says.)

My idea is that the MC is so crazy that he doesn't need Lucifer to sweeten the pot. Murdering people is its own reward. I am not sure how to convey that more clearly though. I'll have to think about that, and whether the MC being that homicidal will drive readers away.

Edited December 19, 2015 by rohyu

[Robinski he/him]

Another challenging couple of chapters. The conclusion of Chapter 2 seems very convenient. No doubt there will be more to it, but I feel like I'm being asked to accept that justified killing is good and that I can play along with the main character being allowed to indulge his love of bludgeoning people to death, which is hardly humane, regardless of how one feels about the death penalty.

I feel increasingly uncomfortable with where the story is going at this point. Nobody should want to do this job and the targets of his murderous violence are completely dehumanised.

 

Protagonist deals with the subject of abuse in a very offhand way. I can see how that might be a part of his make-up, perhaps trying to deny or suppress it. I can’t help feeling it’s another convenient justification / excuse for the reader to accept his right to kill people. I'm still not comfortable with that.

 

Regardless of whether I buy in to Protagonist’s horrible background justifying his actions, there’s just no way I can like him, or be comfortable with accepting his right to kill people. I don’t want to read a story that is just full of him killing people and being absolved for it by Lucifer. Where’s the light, where’s the enjoyment for the reader?

 

In the last section, I think I’ve put my finger on the thing that troubles me the most. Almost everyone around him supports what he is doing, encourages it. “People began to cheer” as he knifes the mall shooter; his mother being proud of him and his brother supporting him. It’s a horrible vision of a society that accepts murder and retribution as commonplace. No one seems to be shocked by any of this.

 

I asked myself how it was different from my current story, in which there is killing aplenty. I think it’s because there are two sides at war, or certainly a conflict between an occupying army and the residents of a town. There is some casual killing, and I’ve been called on it by at least one critic, but reading your submissions has underlined why I need to change that scene at least.

 

I'm sort of morbidly curious to see where your story is going, but I'm concerned that no-one is going to challenge what the protagonist is doing, and I find it hard to accept that.

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

“wanted to know more than everything about what happened” - ??

 

“he kept shooting me and the makeup kit on my coffee table doubtful, yet polite, looks” – strange phrasing – awkward.

 

“though everyone but Anthon believed it was, in fact, 100% an accident” – I have a big issue with including numbers in prose. There was a mention in the previous submission of someone saying something ‘3 times’ or something like that. This is not a text book or technical paper. I don’t recall ever seeing numbers in prose fiction.

 

“I now realized I overestimated my ability to control my facial expressions” –

 

“but the detective raised an eyebrow” – you’re not referring to him by name, this is just any detective, not Detective Anthon.

 

“I shook my head again, trying to look confused” – I don’t need to try, I'm completely confused – who is this girl breaking into places?

 

I find it strange that they would leave him to see a neurologist under his own steam. I'm not convinced that this would happen.

 

“Ten 10 minutes later”

 

“textile evidence” – tactile?

 

“I decided to assume I wasn't hallucinating for now” – but he has proof he’s not hallucinating, the cops didn’t see any of it.

 

“all the people I'd killed” – isn’t it still two people at this point?

 

Should I know what a Genesis is?

 

“about 5 five million dollars in our bank account” – life insurance, presumably?

 

“the service I provided for the world” – which the world does not want, because we have ways of dealing with those people

 

“Daryl had Down syndrome” – I think this is the first specific mention of DS. You mentioned his disability, of course, but I think this detail should come earlier.

 

Who is Michael?

 

I like the juxtaposition of their characters dying in the videogame with their discussion about the protagonist killing people in real life.

 

“Most Dad's dads would get tired”

 

“I think Mom would tell me to do it” – I'm continuing to sway between being intrigued by the internal debate going on and how hard Protagonist tries to convince himself, and thinking that it’s all terribly convenient that these bad things happened to him.

 

I'm confused. I thought he shot the cop who killed his mom, wasn’t that Arnold?

[Robinski he/him]

Honestly I have a hard time with any sympathy for the character, which made reading this hard.  I'm guessing I'm not really the target audience for this.  He's basically a horrible person in every way, except for his brother.  However, he's led Daryl to believe that killing is fine, which isn't really a good message.

 

So far, each person the MC kills has barely any description, and then is killed horribly...  ...there's still no effort to see them as anything but a body to be killed.

 

I must agree with Mandamon entirely. I have to ask what the message of this story is. It seems to be that killing is fine as long as the killer believes it's justified - which is a shockingly dangerous message in the world that we live in, and a terribly sad indication of what our society is becoming. If that is not the message, and I really hope it isn't, then I think you need to show that very early on or many readers will put the book down.

 

Breaking Bad

After writing this post, in the same way I began to question my own approach to violence and killing in my story Waifs and Strays, I started to think about Breaking Bad. How is it I loved that story so much, even though Walter White kills or is complicit in killing many people during the show? I think it's because it is hard for him, he knows it's wrong and he is doomed to die because of his actions. Whereas I find it impossible to separate your protagonist's love of killing from the message of the book - which maybe it is.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Robinski

[rohyu he/him]

Thanks Rob . I think I made the character too evil  .

If that is not the message, and I really hope it isn't, then I think you need to show that very early on or many readers will put the book down.

 

 

No, that's not the message. It is about what horrible things happen to someone when they go so far over the edge of evil, even if they think what they are doing is good. We know someone shouldn't decide themselves who deserves to live and who deserves to die, but the character thinks he can decide.  But the consequences don't start for a couple of chapters. Spoilers sorta, but in the end I tried to make his punishment worse than going to hell. 

 

 

My intention for the beginning was to make the character believe he is a big hero who can do no wrong, but I seem have to have gone too far with that idea. 

 

I'll definitely have to tone down the craziness and add some guilty feelings or some punishment.

Edited December 20, 2015 by rohyu

[Robinski he/him]

Thanks Rob . I think I made the character too evil  .

 

My intention for the beginning was to make the character believe he is a big hero who can do no wrong, but I seem have to have gone too far with that idea. 

 

I'll definitely have to tone down the craziness and add some guilty feelings or some punishment.

 

Arrgghh, I don't know. My wife and I had an argument about it. I don't know if he is too evil. I go back to my point about peoples' reaction to him, the cops, etc. and the anonymity of the people he kills. I don't think you necessarily need to compromise your idea by making him guilty at this early stage. If he's psychopathic, maybe he never becomes guilty - although I guess Lucifer might just decide the remove all his protective neuroses... I'm still interested, just skeptical    :-)

[rohyu he/him]

I'm having a hard time deciding how crazy the MC should be. I think in the end I may end up writing two separate rough drafts and then seeing which one works better. One version where the character is basically a pyschopath, and one where he fights with himself to try to stay 'good'.

 

I already have the rough draft of the pyscho version done, and I know which events need to happen and how they need to happen, so I don't think you are "comprising my idea", rather you are trying to offer ways to make the story more appealing. I think I'll keep submitting the pyscho version to you guys to see if the character's downfall works. 

Edited December 20, 2015 by rohyu

[Mandamon he/him]

I agree with Robinski on this.  A character can be as evil as you want, but you have to show other's reactions to make sure this is not the "author's voice" talking, i.e. that you don't condone this sort of thing.

 

It still is hard to sympathize, so you may want to study what Dan Wells did with John Cleaver and give him something to endear him to us.  

 

Now I'm sort of intrigued by the challenge of making the POV of a book the evil villain and still having people stick around to read it.  You may have your work cut out for you!

[rohyu he/him]

Now I'm sort of intrigued by the challenge of making the POV of a book the evil villain and still having people stick around to read it.

 

I think I know what might help. Dexter and John Cleaver each had someone close to them who was outraged or horrified by the killing. 

The people meant to admonish the murderous behavior in my story are Daryl and later Detective Anthon. This just happens a few chapters into the book. I think the problem is that someone isn't horrified from the start, so the idea that the MC's actions are horrible doesn't get relayed to the reader for a while. I think I can fix this problem by adding in a mall-goer who looks terrified or disgusted after the MC kills the shooter. And possibly showing that Anthon is upset about the MC killing the intruder in the prologue. Another problem might be that Daryl isn't upset right away.

 

Also, Dexter and John Cleaver both had caveats about who they killed that I think were meant to make the murders seem more acceptable. My MC has a caveat, he only kills murderers, but he is planning on trusting Lucifer that the people are in fact killers. By default, I think most people don't trust a character named Lucifer in my stories context. I don't know if my caveat to make the murders more stomachable is enough, or if perhaps it isn't played up enough.

 

 

I'd love to have your thoughts on these ideas.

[Kammererite]

Page 3 black opal stone: go with gemstone or drop the word "stone" all together. 

 

Page 6. I doubt the main character thinks of himself as homicidal

 

The Lowens: Contradictory. in chapter 1 the MC says he has only 2 kills under his belt, now he has more.

 

Daryl's attack: How did Daryl get there so fast. I thought he couldn't run.

 

Knife: Where did the knife come from?

Knife Wound: I might have this mistaken but i don't think blood gushes from the wound until you remove the blade.

 

Wow. I'm officially scared for this family. Like the others there is no way i can like the MC. 

I think his crazy/evil level is fine, but i believe Daryl is way to accepting of his brothers murderous ways which i think is more disturbing.

I think Robinski and Madnamon hit  the idea on the nose that his evilness is irrelevent, its how the other react to him is that is the key. 

I like the Lucifer aspect and hope he keeps appearing in the story. 

[Kammererite]

Sorry It double posted

Edited December 21, 2015 by Kammererite

[rohyu he/him]

Thanks Kam .

How did Daryl get there so fast. I thought he couldn't run.

 

 

It was just his mom who said he couldn't run, she was just coddling him.

 

I added in the Lowens between submitting chapter 1 and 2. I also made the intruder a girl. I forgot to mention the changes, sorry. RD gave me the idea to make the adoptive parents bad people to help explain why the MC is so crazy.

 

Knife Wound: I might have this mistaken but i don't think blood gushes from the wound until you remove the blade.

 

You are correct. I need to change that part.