Knights radiant and spren

[Daishi5]

Syl says she feels drawn to follow the other "something" spren that follow the wind of the storms to the west.  Uthiru(however its spelled) was to be placed in the west nearest to honor (or something like that).  

 

I think that the modern windspren are following the storms toward honor.  The storm has the face and it renews stormlight.  I wonder if they are following the storm, or just heading west.  If they are following the storm, than it might have a lot of honor or honor's power bound up into the storms.  If they are just heading west, what happens when they get there?  If were still seeing them heading west, are they not arriving, or are they arriving and then starting again for some reason?

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

An honorspren Honorspren that, when having its mind lost, floats around and is easily confused with a windpspren.

 

You keep ignoring the appearance part of it. She looks just like a windspren. There is definitely a wind aspect to her. I don't know why everyone is trying to skirt around it because they want her to be 100% honorspren. That's just not enough to explain what she is. Windrunner. Windspren. Wind powers. It's ok guys... she has a wind element to her.

[Chlehrma]

Honorspren look similar to Windspren before they secure a bondmate. It is also conceivable that what everyone refers to as Windspren are actually unbonded Honorspren.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Honorspren look similar to Windspren before they secure a bondmate. It is also conceivable that what everyone refers to as Windspren are actually unbonded Honorspren.

streeeeeetching. honorspren follow the wind, look like the wind, flyin' around with the wind, ------ just honorspren without a bond. Syl's appearance didn't change over time - and there is evidence that the bond was formed before the first time we even saw Syl "on screen".

[Windrunner he/him]

Honorspren and windspren are confirmed to be cousins, not identical.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Honorspren and windspren are confirmed to be cousins, not identical.

Right, that quote was referenced on the first page. Point being that if an honorspren is cousins with windspren, painspren, and gloryspren, there could be several variations of them. It is a very open ended WoB in the sense that "cousin" is a very loose term. I don't think the parent of windspren and the parent of honorspren were siblings. It's a word to show they are related in some ways, but aren't classified as the same thing. Everyone wants to say that Syl is an Honorspren honorspren HoNoRsPrEn, but the point is that there is no confirmation that an honorspren could not also look like a little rock spirit when drawn to a Stoneward. It could be the honor of the KR in question that attracted the spren while the form is different. Then Brandon could just as easily say "honorspren are cousins to stonespren." I'm saying we are over-classifying without real confirmation (which I'm a big fan of when it is kept in the realm of theorizing, but as you can see, it is taken for fact).

[Gloom he/him]

Kaladins Honorspren makes him a Windrunner. I think that pretty much establishes that Sylphrena and any other Honorspren that can create a Windrunner is closely related to Windspren.

 

It looks like what you're really asking is are Windrunner spren the only Honorspren, and I believe that the answer is no. I'm pretty sure that several orders of the Knights Radiant have Honorspren. If this wasn't the case, then their wouldn't be a debate about which spren are considered Honorspren. If Windrunner spren were the only Honorspren, then their would be nothing to debate.

[hoser he/him]

Right, that quote was referenced on the first page. Point being that if an honorspren is cousins with windspren, painspren, and gloryspren, there could be several variations of them. It is a very open ended WoB in the sense that "cousin" is a very loose term. I don't think the parent of windspren and the parent of honorspren were siblings. It's a word to show they are related in some ways, but aren't classified as the same thing. Everyone wants to say that Syl is an Honorspren honorspren HoNoRsPrEn, but the point is that there is no confirmation that an honorspren could not also look like a little rock spirit when drawn to a Stoneward. It could be the honor of the KR in question that attracted the spren while the form is different. Then Brandon could just as easily say "honorspren are cousins to stonespren." I'm saying we are over-classifying without real confirmation (which I'm a big fan of when it is kept in the realm of theorizing, but as you can see, it is taken for fact).

I see two models here:

1. Honorspren are amorphous, taking on form depending on the Surgebinding attributes of the person they are attracted to.
2. Multiple forms of honorspren, each of which is attracted to certain Surgebinding attributes and, when bonded, creates a surgebinder of a particular order (in this case, Syl would be attracted to people who protect and lead and her bond can only create Surgebinders with the windrunner powerset).  I believe this to be a restatement of what Gloom is claiming above. 

Support in the text for Syl fitting the second model follows.

 

At the end of Chapter 14:

"... But, if I were to lose these memories ..." She glanced into the air, and Kaladin traced her movements, noting a pair of windspren darting through the sky on a gusting breeze ...

 

Syl's evolution is that she starts out as an apparent windspren and grows more different from windspren.  If she was originally amorphous, becoming more defined as a windspren, then her behavior should grow more windspren-like as Kaladin becomes more of a windrunner. 

Edited January 5, 2014 by hoser

[Aether he/him]

I see two models here:

1. Honorspren are amorphous, taking on form depending on the Surgebinding attributes of the person they are attracted to.
2. Multiple forms of honorspren, each of which is attracted to certain Surgebinding attributes and, when bonded, creates a surgebinder of a particular order (in this case, Syl would be attracted to people who protect and lead and her bond can only create Surgebinders with the windrunner powerset).  I believe this to be a restatement of what Gloom is proposing above. 

I believe there is support in the text for Syl fitting the second model, which I hope to edit in later.

I personally make the distinction between honourspren and Honourspren (capital "H"). There is a WoB were Brandon states that Nahel are made up of different quantities and combinations of Honour and Cultivation's Investiture.

 

Spren made mostly of Cultivation (above 50%) would in my opinion be "cultivationspren", and the opposite (above 50% of Honour) would be honourspren. Syl would be an Honourspren, presumably a full splinter of Honour only (or at least as close as it gets).

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

I see two models here:

1. Honorspren are amorphous, taking on form depending on the Surgebinding attributes of the person they are attracted to.
2. Multiple forms of honorspren, each of which is attracted to certain Surgebinding attributes and, when bonded, creates a surgebinder of a particular order (in this case, Syl would be attracted to people who protect and lead and her bond can only create Surgebinders with the windrunner powerset).  I believe this to be a restatement of what Gloom is claiming above. 

Support in the text for Syl fitting the second model follows.

 

At the end of Chapter 14:

 

Syl's evolution is that she starts out as an apparent windspren and grows more different from windspren.  If she was originally amorphous, becoming more defined as a windspren, then her behavior should grow more windspren-like as Kaladin becomes more of a windrunner. 

I think that sums it up rather nicely. There definitely seems to be a wind aspect to Syl, and I don't see honor as a windy trait for any reason. Although, if there highstorms are a function of Honor, there might be a link there, but that's not the reason for the season right now if you know what I mean. Either way, I have sort of lost my theory lust now that Words of Radiance is so close to release - I'm just looking forward to having it all explained to me and having new questions on my plate for a while (If I was an Adem from a Patrick Rothfuss book, I'd signal intense understatement about now).

[The Rooster he/him]

I see two models here:

1. Honorspren are amorphous, taking on form depending on the Surgebinding attributes of the person they are attracted to.
2. Multiple forms of honorspren, each of which is attracted to certain Surgebinding attributes and, when bonded, creates a surgebinder of a particular order (in this case, Syl would be attracted to people who protect and lead and her bond can only create Surgebinders with the windrunner powerset).  I believe this to be a restatement of what Gloom is claiming above. 

There is another interesting part in Chapter 34 where Kaladin is strung up to be judged by the Stormfather. 

 

"I'll be right back Syl said, dropping off his chest, taking the form of a falling stone, then changing into windblown leaves near the ground anf luttering away, curving to the right"

 

 

I haven't seen any other reference to Wind Spren behaving in this nature, Syl has a plasticity that suggests looking like a wind spren is her preference, not a requirement.

 

 

I think that sums it up rather nicely. There definitely seems to be a wind aspect to Syl, and I don't see honor as a windy trait for any reason. Although, if there highstorms are a function of Honor, there might be a link there, but that's not the reason for the season right now if you know what I mean. Either way, I have sort of lost my theory lust now that Words of Radiance is so close to release - I'm just looking forward to having it all explained to me and having new questions on my plate for a while (If I was an Adem from a Patrick Rothfuss book, I'd signal intense understatement about now).

 

This Rothfuss reference made me choke on my coffee.  +1

[Kurkistan he/him]

I haven't seen any other reference to Wind Spren behaving in this nature, Syl has a plasticity that suggests looking like a wind spren is her preference, not a requirement.

 

I'd always interpreted Syl's changing appearances to just switching between various "windy things", and that switchery being normal, to some extent, for windspren; a blowing ribbon, tumbling leaves, a mischievous sprite. "Falling stone" is a bit out of that range, but I can see it being wind-related if you stretch your imagination a bit.

[Macen he/him]

Did I miss something? Did Brandon somewhere state that Honorspren are the only spren that can be bound to humans? Why can't there be a different type of Spren for each order?

From what we've seen in the Interludes and WoR each order has a different looking spren. We have not seen any other spren take on multiple forms. The easiest path from point A to point B is that each order has a different type of spren.

I feel like we are over complicating it based on Syl being an honorspren. We are giving too much value to the word honor in this situation.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Brandon has indicated that there are a range of spren who can be called "honorspren":

 

Source:

QUESTION

A question related to that. There’s an idea going around that all the spren that can Nahel Bond, all Knight Radiant spren are called honorspren, and then Nohadon talks specifically about honorspren. Is that the case? You know, is it just the Windrunner spren, or is it all the spren?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

I’m going to deal with this in the next book. So I’ll just go ahead and let it be a literal RAFO. It is coming.

 

(interruption, leading Brandon to lose his train of thought)

 

So what we are dealing with here is that all Spren are indeed all pieces of the one who has gone, so those spren are all- except the Windrunner spren, the spren like Syl, have certain umm.

 

ZAS

Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

 

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

 

Source:

RICK

1.Are there any other sentient spren like Syl, if not are there any Spren capable of becoming sentient or is she purposefully unique?

2.If so, what are the conditions that must be met for a spren to become sentient?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ok Cool.

 

1. There are other sentient spren.

 

2. There are many more who could become sentient, there were choices that were made that we will get into that were made by some spren that, that involved-

 

There were certain choices that were made that influenced this, so yes, that was a very detailed and specific question, you did a good job and so I will give you your answer that there are others like Syl that could become and there are some that are sentient already

 

RICK

Would that also mean that certain spren had an alignment or would some spren be catered toward good or evil or not?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

They're creatures of nature and so good and evil aren't as, as big a deal to them. There are some that may be put in that sort of alignments, certainly honorspren are going to be of a certain type, but there are many spren of many different temperaments and they are kind of aligned to their temperament, having to do with who they are and what they are.

[marianmi]

Honorspren with his mind lost reverts to a "basic form", similar to a windspren.

When they are able to function (like Syl now) they can change their appearance according to personality - so you might have a guy honorspren.

So I don't think there are different "families". Plus, they give access to the same set of surges - and this is a bit tied to their "ancestry" and "basic form" - gravity, pressure => wind.

Then you have cultivationspren => when they have their consciousness they can choose how to look - Wyndle wanna look like a vine with a face because his "basic form" probably is a vine - growth => plants (Cultivation). Plus, he was a gardener.

[The Rooster he/him]

In the newly released Shallan chapter there's an example of wind spren changing formsin  a manner that disproves my previous observation.  I prostrate myself on the floor and beg the forgiveness of ya'll.