comparative feruchemical power

[vertigo 1]

in the first mist born trilogy, it mentions that Rashek is a very powerful feruchemist, which has caused a lot of speculation on how feruchemical power is measured, as by its nature, a feruchemists power is determined by how full their metalminds are. my theory is that the relative power of a feruchemist is measured in how good they are at conserving power. 

in the end of TFE Sazed states that when a feruchemist taps large amounts from their metal minds that a certain amount of power is wasted. I think that the more powerful a feruchemist is the less power is wasted when tapping large amount of power. 

lets say X is the amount of strength required to make a given feruchemist twice as powerful as before, Y is the amount of strength required to make a given feruchemist four times as powerful as before, and Z is the amount of strength required to make a given feruchemist eight times as powerful as before. according to mathematics, 2X = Y and 2Y = Z. In reality, it would be 3X = Y and 5Y =Z. a weaker feruchemist would have 5X = Y while a very powerful feruchemist would have 2.00001X =Y.

[baby he/him]

Isn't the whole point of feruchemy that whatever you put in is the same amount coming out? I don't recall Sazed ever saying that, any quotes?

[Voidus]

Isn't the whole point of feruchemy that whatever you put in is the same amount coming out? I don't recall Sazed ever saying that, any quotes?

You get 1 back for 1 but if you increase the rate you draw the power back at you need to spend some of the power to compress it.

 

 

 

SPORKIFY (18 OCTOBER 2008)

And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

(Brandon's not referring to the Allomancy + Feruchemy type of compounding here btw, he's just referring to the process of tapping faster than you store, which for some confusing reason he also decided to call compounding )

[hoidhunter he/him]

(I actually don't recall Rashek ever being referred to as a powerful feruchimest...but there is an excellent chance that I am mistaken)

 

Anyway...

 

This may be slightly off topic...but I've always been curious about how your natural potential impacts your ability to store a given quality and then tap it later.

 

 For example, it's easy to assume that someone who can easily bench press 300lbs will have an easier time storing strength.  Even while storing 50% they can still easily put up 150lbs...which is better than a lot of people I know.  

 

Or...someone who is 5 years old can store youth much more efficiently than a 40 year old...because, obviously...they're younger...just like our first example is stronger.  

 

But does this apply to all feruchimal abilities?  There are several other examples where the answer is an obvious yes...but what about the weird ones like speed.  I know that some people are "faster" than others but that has to do with muscle strength, cardiovascular health, etc...and storing feruchimal speed dosen't seem to have anything to do with muscles, oxygen, or blood flow.

 

Or luck...are some people luckier than others?  Does is depend on just how lucky you are when start storing.

 

Or even weight for that matter.  If a really, really fat person stores a lot of weight for a long time and then loses a bunch of weight...is the quantity of weight in their iron mind based off of how much they weighed when they stored it?  Or a converted ratio of percentages that corresponds to their current weight?  i.e. I stored 50% of my weight for an hour when I weighed 300lbs and could then have tapped it to weigh 450% for an hour...instead...I kept it in a metal mind until I finished my diet...I now weigh 200lbs...can I tap it to become 350lbs for an hour or is it only good for 300lbs for an hour?

 

I guess what I'm saying (in a very round about way) is that maybe all you need in order to be "a powerful feruchimest", is to be in great physical shape, with a really healthy immune system, always eat right, keep your mind razor sharp, have a great strength to weight ratio, have naturally great vision and hearing, be super charismatic, be really determined, and have a firm unflappable sense of identity...(I know there are others but you get the point) 

 

by the way...redsword gets an upvote for have math in the opening post...it's brave...

Edited November 4, 2015 by hoidhunter

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that strength in Feruchemy determines how fast you can store an attribute.

So a regular Feruchemist could store x units of eyesight in an hour and TLR could store x units in 15 minutes.

 

Which makes little sense, come to think of it, because that would mean the lower limits of the percentage you can store are variable, but there are attributes which any (full) Feruchemist can store at (near) 100% (weight), and other attributes which are stored instantaneously (memory).

 

Another possible way for levels of Feruchemic power to express themselves is the density at which a Feruchemist can pack an attribute in his metalmind. So TLR could store 1000 years of age in a pair of thin atium bracelets, while an average Feruchemist might have needed a dozen pounds of metal to achieve the same (ignoring how he managed to store so much age in the first place).

[Guest]

(I actually don't recall Rashek ever being referred to as a powerful feruchimest...but there is an excellent chance that I am mistaken)

Anyway...

This may be slightly off topic...but I've always been curious about how your natural potential impacts your ability to store a given quality and then tap it later.

For example, it's easy to assume that someone who can easily bench press 300lbs will have an easier time storing strength. Even while storing 50% they can still easily put up 150lbs...which is better than a lot of people I know.

Storing Strength isn't just in your external muscles. Even if you can bench 700lbs, if you're heart muscle is pumping at only 80% strength you're in very serious danger of deadness.

The absolute Strength a very buff person could Store might be greater, but is still limited to around the 80% number given.

Certain traits (like Weight) can be Stored at a higher rate with few side effects, but I suspect that extended high-Weight storage does strange things to a person's circulation.

[Voidus]

Storing Strength isn't just in your external muscles. Even if you can bench 700lbs, if you're heart muscle is pumping at only 80% strength you're in very serious danger of deadness.

The absolute Strength a very buff person could Store might be greater, but is still limited to around the 80% number given.

Certain traits (like Weight) can be Stored at a higher rate with few side effects, but I suspect that extended high-Weight storage does strange things to a person's circulation.

Yeah being strong is more likely to benefit you from tapping rather than storing (Assuming feruchemy works on percentage multipliers), since being twice as strong is more useful if you're already twice as strong as most people.

[Moogle]

It is noted that Hemalurgic decay causes losses when storing somewhere. I can't seem to find where, but there's a WoB on it somewhere. Maybe in the annotations...

[Voidus]

It is noted that Hemalurgic decay causes losses when storing somewhere. I can't seem to find where, but there's a WoB on it somewhere. Maybe in the annotations...

Yeah I remember the same quote though I don't think it was from the Annotations, probably a WoB that hasn't been added to the database.

[killersquirrel59 he/him]

I'm in the process of writing a gaming system for Mistborn (wasn't that big a fan of MAG system) and I rated Feruchemy on a scale of 1-5 for each metal, determining how long it took to store an attribute. It isn't an even trade, clearly, as Sazed talks about taking months to store up attributes that he burns away in hours or minutes. So I said that the benefit of tapping a single "charge" is enough to increase the relevant attribute by 1 for 1 minute. Storing a charge takes time based on your metal rating as per the following scale:

 

1 - 8 hours

2 - 1 hour

3 - 30 minutes

4 - 5 minutes

5 - 1 minute

 

A true master at 5, does have an even rate of storage and tapping, but it has been noted quite frequently that Sazed isn't actually very good at what he does, with the notable exception of Copper.

[An evil 545lighteyes he/him]

Storing Strength isn't just in your external muscles. Even if you can bench 700lbs, if you're heart muscle is pumping at only 80% strength you're in very serious danger of deadness.

The absolute Strength a very buff person could Store might be greater, but is still limited to around the 80% number given.

Certain traits (like Weight) can be Stored at a higher rate with few side effects, but I suspect that extended high-Weight storage does strange things to a person's circulation.

I am pretty sure that there is WoB that you cannot kill yourself through feruchemy and it will keep you alive even if you pull a Wax and weigh more than a small building for a few seconds or something silly like it.

[Voidus]

I am pretty sure that there is WoB that you cannot kill yourself through feruchemy and it will keep you alive even if you pull a Wax and weigh more than a small building for a few seconds or something silly like it.

It generally protects against the direct side effects of tapping it but there will still be limits, pretty sure WoB is that if a Steelrunner tried to punch someone while speeding they'd probably break their arm.

[natc]

It generally protects against the direct side effects of tapping it but there will still be limits, pretty sure WoB is that if a Steelrunner tried to punch someone while speeding they'd probably break their arm.

Well that's one more reason a steelrunner with a gun is a tad too deadly.

[Voidus]

Well that's one more reason a steelrunner with a gun is a tad too deadly.

Or a crossbow, or a coin and Allomantic steel.

Or come to that a coin and Allomantic iron, drop a coin and then speed up while it's falling to behind someone and pull it through them.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Voidus

[Kaymyth she/her]

Well that's one more reason a steelrunner with a gun is a tad too deadly.

 

Until you try pulling the trigger on the gun too many times too fast and jam the thing...

[baby he/him]

So I was rereading the first mistborn series and when Sazed was fighting Kandra, he very distinctly says that he stops tapping weight, but then uses speed to smash a hammer into the Kandra. I can't quote it right now, but it went along the lines of 'He wasn't tapping weight anymore, but he had speed.' So I don't really know right now if it would hurt you or not, but that's probably the best example we have considering the only attribute he was tapping was speed.