Unknown Surge Theory

[Romek]

So after reading the Lift excerpt I took a closer look at the KR and the surges like I assume most people did. Now we all know how Brandon likes his magic ordered.  And taking a closer look at the surges i tried to make a little more sense out of them and here were my thoughts (sorry if this has been shared before).
 

Like allomantic metals, i think each surge has a companion that it is opposite to in intent.

Growth-Division
Pretty straightforward, one controls creation the other is most likely more destructive

Illumination-Transformation
One deals with changing something entirely versus changing appearances
 
Friction-Pressure
One makes someone (possibly objects they invest into as well?) very slick whereas the other can make things stick together
 
Travel-Gravity
This one might be more of a reach, hard to tell as how travel works is pretty unknown, but I think the correlation is a safe bet.  Really all depends on how Travel is performed.
 
So this leaves us Surface Tension or whatever he decides to call it.  My understanding of what this would do is strengthening a material, making it more rigid (possibly used in the creation of blades and shards?).  The opposite of this would be a surge which I am going to call Vibration (credit to Count for the better name).
 

I think this would work one of two ways.

1) Vibrating a materials or one's own atoms so that someone could pass through an object.
2) Making a material more brittle, which could be used to destroy armor, or quickly create tunnels or escape routes (even though transformation could do this as well in a different way) .

Now correct me if I'm wrong but dissipation would be used by Stonewarders and possibly Explorers if that is an Order.  Explorers this would make sense, as they would have Travel and Vibration, allowing them to go practically anywhere with relative ease. Stonewarders fits pretty well also.  Tension to strengthen one's own items and themselves, and either destroy an enemy's armor or the ability to ignore it (pass through them) with Vibration.  Pretty good combo for a guardian.

Thoughts? Am I crazy? spoiler - probably
 
Argument against - Coupled surges above don't make any discernible pattern in the Knights Radiant symbol from what i can see.  Some are even shared by an order while other's are far apart.  Maybe one is from cultivation while the other is Honor? Growth and what Wyndle says about his mother make me think that he is of Cultivation at least. Syl is pretty clearly of Honor.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Romek

[hoser]

This seems very thoughtful and creative to me.  Upvote! 

 

Some have long pegged Dalinar as order 8 based on the Resolute/Builder attributes.  They seem to be both strengths, where he is resolving conflicts about being Resolute in tWoK.  There is also WoB that the Radiant orders are human.  These together with some character-building from the Eshonai reading and the synopsis point to Dalinar as a Bondsmith (order 8) and Eshonai as the Explorer (not a radiant order).  These are unproven details and not central to your theory. 

 

While your idea seems interesting, I struggle with your premise that the radiant abilities come in opposing pairs.  The oppositions you propose seem somewhat forced to me.  You call Travel-Gravity a reach, then somehow decide the correlation is a safe bet.  I don't follow.  Is this fitting data to the theory?  You connect Growth and Division, but it seems that Division (splitting things apart, presumably (done by Skybreakers)) could just as easily be opposed to Pressure (used to stick things together).  There is some support for the idea that the some of the abilities (such as Pressure) can be reversed by the Radiants who use them. 

 

I like the ability, and it seems like a possibility, but there are two steps in the justification that I don't follow.  I don't see any support for the opposing pairs of abilities theory.  The specific oppositions also seem unclear or somewhat forced to me.  This leaves the ability as a perfectly fine possibility, but without any textual support. 

 

Regrowth, for example, was used in the Starfall vision before the Lift interlude was released.  If you could cite an example of someone using the ability in the text, it would strengthen your case. 

 

Another way to support it would be to show how it exists in other magic systems.  Brandon has gone on record as saying that certain abilities will be achieved in different ways across magic systems as we have seen with flying and illusions.  This ability does not seem to be shared with any Cosmere magic systems.  You could maybe make that argument using Steelheart (which is non-Cosmere), if you are familiar with that.  If you do, please hide Steelheart references with spoiler tags. 

Edited December 11, 2013 by hoser

[Pinpoint]

Friction-Pressure

One makes someone (possibly objects they invest into as well?) very slick whereas the other can make things stick together

 Surgbinding

[Romek]

Surgebinding is just the act of using any surge right? The sticking together of two objects is a Full Lashing.

 

Hoser as far as the relations I am thinking of how the surges are used, rather than the outcome which it appears you are comparing.

As far as reaching on a few couples, travel-gravity remains to be seen and very well could not fit at all. It really depends on how the travel is performed. Is it a quick trip through Shadesmar? Is it some high speed flying? Are they spinning the world and staying still!?!? (no, they are not)

As far as pressure and friction being related rather than division, think of how the surges are performed, not the outcome.  You aren't really combining two things with atmospheric pressure, but making a forceful bond that makes moving them in relation to each other very difficult, whereas friction is making movement between two objects much easier.

Division used by Skybreakers and Dustbringers we have only seen the affects of in the prologue and it seems to really be tearing things apart and breaking them down (smoldering rocks) where growth used by Lift with the seeds is controlling (possibly very intricately) how something grows and forms.

Obviously if one couple doesn't work the whole theory is bust, so i think it depends on how travel works, which hopefully we will discover with the information to come in WoR on Elsecallers.

Also thank you for the responses!

Lastly I realize Explorer's are an unlikely KR order, but do we have evidence that Explorer isn't one of the last unknown Radiant orders? Can parshendi be KR? One order that is unknown has Travel and the spot I am throwing dissipation in, so I thought Explorer would fit well. The name seems off though obviously compared to the compound names of all the others. Spiritmovers? Phaseshifters? Moverdudes?

[hoser]

This is the best table I am aware of.  Peter has more or less vetted it.

There are two unknown orders in it, one of which is presumably Bondsmiths.  Most people seem to put that in position 8, where many people see Dalinar fitting, but I don't know that it has been answered definitively.  The updated synopsis thread seems to have the latest that I am aware of. 

[Moogle]

Most people seem to put that in position 8, where many people see Dalinar fitting, but I don't know that it has been answered definitively.

This is your daily Moogle reminder that Bondsmiths are Order 10, hats will be eaten, etc.

 

Also, Dalinar fits Orders 1, 8, 9 and 10.

[hoser]

This is your daily Moogle reminder that Bondsmiths are Order 10, hats will be eaten, etc.

So many choices: bowler, stetson, ten gallon, but I think something with lots of feathers would be best.  What condiments go best with a feather hat? Will you post a video?

[The Count]

Obviously if one couple doesn't work the whole theory is bust, so i think it depends on how travel works, which hopefully we will discover with the information to come in WoR on Elsecallers.

Don't give up so easily young grasshopper!

There are many ways that the surges could be paired other than that you give above. I seem to remember, back in the long long ago that someone suggested a cognitive / physical and internal / external split for the surges similar to that seen in Allomancy.

I think the premise of opposing surges / forces is kind of inherent in surgebinding since it is based around fundamental natural forces. I think your basic premise has great merit.

There is also the Honor / Cultivation split to consider so that may also complicate matters.

As for the final surge, I think you may be bang on the money. I have argued elsewhere for Vibration or Resonance as the final surge and I think this fits nicely with your own idea.

Edited December 12, 2013 by The Count

[Bloodfalcon]

I agree with The Count. The idea is a good one and a mismatch shouldn't discourage it. Mistborn introduced new metals over time. Could be done here and totally drop everything into place.

[Natans]

So many choices: bowler, stetson, ten gallon, but I think something with lots of feathers would be best.  What condiments go best with a feather hat? Will you post a video?

 

There is still hope =)

 

 

 

 

[Bloodfalcon]

 

 

Here is a person who is clearly thrilled with their job. 

[treblkickd]

Like allomantic metals, i think each surge has a companion that it is opposite to in intent.

Growth-Division

Pretty straightforward, one controls creation the other is most likely more destructive

Illumination-Transformation

One deals with changing something entirely (heavily cognitive) versus changing appearances (heavily physical)

 

Friction-Pressure

One makes someone (possibly objects they invest into as well?) very slick whereas the other can make things stick together

 

Travel-Gravity

This one might be more of a reach, hard to tell as how travel works is pretty unknown, but I think the correlation is a safe bet.  Really all depends on how Travel is performed.

 

So this leaves us Surface Tension or whatever he decides to call it.  My understanding of what this would do is strengthening a material, making it more rigid (possibly used in the creation of blades and shards?).  The opposite of this would be a surge which I am going to call Dissipation.

 

 

Oooo, interesting idiea. It's true that it's not at all obviuos how the Transportation-Gravity pairing would make sense, but we don't know enough about them to really say anything definitive.

 

That said, I think a better pairing with Surface Tension would be Division, which leaves Growth as the one missing it's pair. Surface Tension and Division make sense to me, as one holds things together and the other separates them. In this scenario, Growth needs an opposite, and I could imagine it being something like Entropy, oh or maybe going in another direction something like Stasis.

[Bloodfalcon]

Oooo, interesting idiea. It's true that it's not at all obviuos how the Transportation-Gravity pairing would make sense, but we don't know enough about them to really say anything definitive.

 

That said, I think a better pairing with Surface Tension would be Division, which leaves Growth as the one missing it's pair. Surface Tension and Division make sense to me, as one holds things together and the other separates them. In this scenario, Growth needs an opposite, and I could imagine it being something like Entropy, oh or maybe going in another direction something like Stasis.

Stasis sounds very close to a Time surge. 

[Romek]

Thanks for everyone's replies, gives me a lot more ideas and I'll write up something longer later today.

Stasis is a very interesting idea, also maybe growth is a kind of temporal affect? One surge speeds up time around an object...the other slows time? Not sure how that fits into growths healing.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Romek

[treblkickd]

Yeah, Stasis sort of works, sort of doesn't, and you're right that it could lead to a road where Growth/Stasis are both related to time (de-/ac-)celeration. The other I threw out there was Entropy, and the use of that could actually also be thought about in terms of (de-/ac-)celerating certain processes. The issue with Entropy is that is could overlap or conflict with the existing surge of Division (depending on exactly how you interpret the meaning of "Division").

 

The trouble with all of this is that while Brandon tries to ground his magical effects in science (or at least think about the physical implications and of possible mechanisms for various magics), it's very unlikely that he ever comes up with systems that are sufficiently straightforward to be reconstructed from sparse evidence.

[hoser]

A consideration about entropy would be to consider the basis of the surgebinding system.  I see it as an Honor+Cultivation or Honor based system.  Entropy doesn't seem very consistent with their intents to me.

[Bloodfalcon]

A consideration about entropy would be to consider the basis of the surgebinding system.  I see it as an Honor+Cultivation or Honor based system.  Entropy doesn't seem very consistent with their intents to me.

I don't understand this at all. Do you know somewhere I can go get an understanding of this? In Mistborn, I don't really consider all of the Allomantic skills to be particularly consistent with Preservation or preserving... I don't have a 100% grasp on that stuff though.

[marianmi]

My impression is that the intent of the shard matters only in how you get the powers, not how the power manifest or how the person uses the power. How the power manifest depends on the interactions between the 3 realms. The shard has only limited ways of changing how the powers manifest (Sazed "tweaked" allomancy a bit, but I don't think he can make fundamental changes).

[Romek]

I believe Marianmi is correct.  The power itself is not related to the shard's intent (Ironpulling, Lift's friction) but more how the basis of the investiture works.  I believe Sazed tweak was to make snapping easier, which has no affect on the powers themselves.

As far as other splits are concerned I took a closer look at the Radiant Chart.  First the chart is pretty clearly split between male (top) and female (bottom).  As far as i know every surgebinder we have seen so far falls into an Order with a leader of their respective gender.  Further, it would seem male order's dominate physical heavy surges (Pressure, Gravity, Division etc) whereas Female orders dominate more cognitive surges (Transformation, Illumination, Growth, Travel depending on how it works).  I thought this was a curious coincidence because of how Alethi gender roles play out.  Women are more focused on scholarly pursuits from philosophy to engineering compared to almost all the Men we meet are either warriors or physical tradesmen of some kind.  Maybe this is due to historical KR Order focuses?

In fact an argument could be made that as you go from upper right to lower left in either direction surges go from physical to cognitive  (this means there are some cognitive/physical overlaps with genders, which makes sense because I don't think Brandon would make that a clear cut distinction but rather that maybe one gender is more predisposed to perform surges relating to one realm versus the other).

Lastly, the growth division connection again depends on how division is performed as it could overlap with the idea of either Entropy or Vibration (stealing this! better term IMO)

 

[KiManiak]

As far as other splits are concerned I took a closer look at the Radiant Chart.  First the chart is pretty clearly split between male (top) and female (bottom).  As far as i know every surgebinder we have seen so far falls into an Order with a leader of their respective gender.  Further, it would seem male order's dominate physical heavy surges (Pressure, Gravity, Division etc) whereas Female orders dominate more cognitive surges (Transformation, Illumination, Growth, Travel depending on how it works).

 

I don't believe this is necessarily the case.  In the "Starfalls" Chapter, Dalinar sees a female Knight Radiant that appears to be a Stoneward.  That is Talenel's order.

 

In the Ym Interlude, Ym has access to the Growth Surge, and it is highly likely that he has the Illumination Surge as well.  This is therefore most likely to be Palah's order that he would be associated with.

 

As of now, we don't know if all (or even some) of the Orders are predominately the same gender as the Herald they are associated with, but we know that not every order has exclusively the same gender as their affiliated Herald.

Edited December 12, 2013 by KiManiak

[Romek]

Ah, i hadn't read the Ym interlude.  And i have heard that there is a stoneward in the Starfall chapter but rereading it i am not seeing any specific evidence? Am I missing something or is this from WoB?  Either way it could be a majority thing, or more likely nothing at all.

[cem]

The glow of the Radiants' Shardplate change depending on their orders. Amber, which is the color the lady Knight's Plate glows, corresponds to Stonewards.

[Bloodfalcon]

I don't believe this is necessarily the case.  In the "Starfalls" Chapter, Dalinar sees a female Knight Radiant that appears to be a Stoneward.  That is Talenel's order.

 

In the Ym Interlude, Ym has access to the Growth Surge, and it is highly likely that he has the Illumination Surge as well.  This is therefore most likely to be Palah's order that he would be associated with.

 

As of now, we don't know if all (or even some) of the Orders are predominately the same gender as the Herald they are associated with, but we know that not every order has exclusively the same gender as their affiliated Herald.

I have basically come to accept it as fact at one point or another, but are we positive that only the Growth surge allows for KR to heal? Lift physically grows or accelerates growth of things. I don't remember if Wyndle expressly said that was the purpose of the Growth surge. Either way, Ym seems like the only real mismatch if that is the case

[KiManiak]

I have basically come to accept it as fact at one point or another, but are we positive that only the Growth surge allows for KR to heal? Lift physically grows or accelerates growth of things. I don't remember if Wyndle expressly said that was the purpose of the Growth surge. Either way, Ym seems like the only real mismatch if that is the case

 

You're right, we're not that knowledgeable about how much of the magic works on Roshar.  Even what we think we know (3 Lashings for Windrunners for example) may be incomplete.

 

Having said that, based upon the Surges we've been exposed to and what Wyndle says (he does mention Regrowth in the context of explaining the more advanced aspects of Growth that Lift may not have been ready for) I think the safest assumption is that Regrowth is linked to Growth.

 

Ym is one mismatch to the theory, but don't forget about the female Stoneward; she also disputes the theory. Plus, when Dalinar has the vision of the day of Recreance, he mentions that there were both male and female Surgebinders who divest themselves of the Shardplate and Blades, and these would be from the Windrunner and Stoneward Orders.  So, there are other bits of evidence that refute the absolutism of gender aligned Order and Herald.

[Bloodfalcon]

You're right, we're not that knowledgeable about how much of the magic works on Roshar.  Even what we think we know (3 Lashings for Windrunners for example) may be incomplete.

 

Having said that, based upon the Surges we've been exposed to and what Wyndle says (he does mention Regrowth in the context of explaining the more advanced aspects of Growth that Lift may not have been ready for) I think the safest assumption is that Regrowth is linked to Growth.

 

Ym is one mismatch to the theory, but don't forget about the female Stoneward; she also disputes the theory. Plus, when Dalinar has the vision of the day of Recreance, he mentions that there were both male and female Surgebinders who divest themselves of the Shardplate and Blades, and these would be from the Windrunner and Stoneward Orders.  So, there are other bits of evidence that refute the absolutism of gender aligned Order and Herald.

Ok, good to know things aren't so set in stone then. I had kind of gotten comfortable with our own theories I think. 

But the Stoneward KR is only a mismatch in certain scenarios. If you believe the Heralds are being replaced by some of our main characters, then it makes sense that they (main characters) all correspond, but that doesn't mean ALL the KR in that Order will be the same gender. It might be a top level thing... this seems like a stretch, but there are one or two points that make it a valid option.