Did Harmony Do His Best?

[ChocolateRob he/him]

It seems to me that Harmony had put himself in a position where he had something that Wax needed to know but he knew the damage it would do, so he kept putting it off until it was too late. Harmony should have let Wax know that Lessie was a Kandra a long time ago but when is a good time to find that out? We don't know enough about the Bloody Tan incident to know who was manipulating whom at that point but by the time of this book things have suddenly snowballed in completely unpredictable ways. Harmony knows that the truth would utterly wreck Wax at this point, it is way beyond a reasonable time for Wax to find out how he has been manipulated. If Wax knows that the enemy is Lessie he would not be able to function enough to stop her so Harmony cannot risk telling him.

 

It is similar to Dumbledore, he always had information about Voldemort that Harry absolutely needed to know but he kept putting it off for a better time to tell him, too late does he realise that the time has already been and gone.

 

So in answer to the survey, Harmony does the best he could during the two day period that the book covers but only because he should have done more at the earlier end of the last seventeen years.

 

That's how I see it most likely being.

[Argent he/him]

Rather be able to save them. It's jarring to see a god restrained by something other than principle. Though Harmony does still have principles

 

I think much of the criticism against Harmony comes from the argument that he is a God, and therefore he should or shouldn't do certain things. I don't think this applies to the Cosmere "Gods" - Shardholders are not really Gods, they a very powerful practitioners of magic. There is no moral imperative, no expectations, no obligations; they do what they do because want to (or are forced to, by their Shards), not because This is How Things Are. 

[Zathoth]

Argent brings up something very interesting here. What if Harmony cant do the most logical thing? The best possible course of action would have been "Hey, Wax, I need you back in Elendel. Your uncle is up to some shady stuff. Oh... and your girlfriend is a kandra. I sent her to protect you."

 

What if that was impossible because his shards were in conflict? That puts everything in a completely different light to me. If he did all he could do, then yes, this was probably the best course of action, if he could have told Wax, but didnt, then no, then he screwed up.

[vineyarddawg]

I think much of the criticism against Harmony comes from the argument that he is a God, and therefore he should or shouldn't do certain things. I don't think this applies to the Cosmere "Gods" - Shardholders are not really Gods, they a very powerful practitioners of magic. There is no moral imperative, no expectations, no obligations; they do what they do because want to (or are forced to, by their Shards), not because This is How Things Are. 

 

This might sound overly pedantic, so I apologize in advance if that's the case... but I wouldn't say there's no moral imperative for shardholders.  Rather, each shardholder would have their own unique moral imperative based on the shard's intent.  That moral imperative might or might not align with the human moral imperative, and in fact, if a shardholder's personal code of morality differs significantly from that of the intent of the shard he/she receives, then the shard's intent will be the dominant force.  (Of course, this is dependent on how long the person holds the shard.  The longer you hold a shard, the more the shard bends you to its intent.)

 

EDIT: And this makes it even worse for Sazed, because the two shards he holds pretty much functionally have opposite intents.  So he's forced to maintain a state of "balance" to, in a sense, maintain the peace between the shards of Ruin and Preservation.

Edited October 9, 2015 by vineyarddawg

[Argent he/him]

I mean that there is no external imperative. You can't expect a Shardholder to behave in a way you consider moral because a) (s)he is under no obligation to adhere to your desires, and it may literally impossible for him or her to do so.

[Landis963 he/him]

Argent brings up something very interesting here. What if Harmony cant do the most logical thing? The best possible course of action would have been "Hey, Wax, I need you back in Elendel. Your uncle is up to some shady stuff. Oh... and your girlfriend is a kandra. I sent her to protect you."

 

What if that was impossible because his shards were in conflict? That puts everything in a completely different light to me. If he did all he could do, then yes, this was probably the best course of action, if he could have told Wax, but didnt, then no, then he screwed up.

 

It would make sense.  Preservation would align itself with the relationship, and push Sazed to keep them together.  Ruin would prefer the relationship broken up, and so would push Sazed to break them up.  That plus Sazed's guilt on the matter - "I have to get Wax back to Elendel, but to do so would be to cause him the pain I felt with Tindwyl."  And so we have the perfect storm of guilt and procrastination that allowed Paalm to throw it all in Harmony's face, in perhaps the worst way possible.  

[WardenGiggles]

I actually was thinking something like this when I was reading. In the original trilogy they Vin had to be very secretive because of Ruin's powers.  What if Harmony can't act in certain ways because it would alert the other Player to what he was trying to do?

 

Argent brings up something very interesting here. What if Harmony cant do the most logical thing? The best possible course of action would have been "Hey, Wax, I need you back in Elendel. Your uncle is up to some shady stuff. Oh... and your girlfriend is a kandra. I sent her to protect you."

 

What if that was impossible because his shards were in conflict? That puts everything in a completely different light to me. If he did all he could do, then yes, this was probably the best course of action, if he could have told Wax, but didnt, then no, then he screwed up.

[Zathoth]

I actually was thinking something like this when I was reading. In the original trilogy they Vin had to be very secretive because of Ruin's powers.  What if Harmony can't act in certain ways because it would alert the other Player to what he was trying to do?

Harmony doesnt know anything about the other shard though, from the sounds of it at least. I think it is more because his shards are opposites.

[TheOneKEA]

I voted no, because I feel that Harmony has been betrayed by his inexperience, and therefore acted poorly in the context of the story that we have experienced so far. However, I agree with Argent's argument, and I also feel that the missing portion of the Ruin Shard not invested in humanity is also playing a part in Hadmony's actions.

[Bucephalus]

I'd argue that is was a necessary evil. If he knew the possible outcomes, it's logical that he would take the best possible outcome. That required Wax doing what he did. It was unlikely that it would have turned out the same way if Harmony hadn't pulled those strings. Given the choice, I'd rather Wax be feeling heartbroken then having Bleeder tear the city apart.

[king of nowhere]

It seems to me that Harmony had put himself in a position where he had something that Wax needed to know but he knew the damage it would do, so he kept putting it off until it was too late. Harmony should have let Wax know that Lessie was a Kandra a long time ago but when is a good time to find that out?  If Wax knows that the enemy is Lessie he would not be able to function enough to stop her so Harmony cannot risk telling him.

 

I don't think that assumption is suppported by the story. Wax still found out bleeder was his wife, and he still shoot her. he would have done the right thing. especially since the plan was to spare her life anyway. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that if wax had known her motivations, he may have been able to talk her out of it.

 

Argent brings up something very interesting here. What if Harmony cant do the most logical thing? The best possible course of action would have been "Hey, Wax, I need you back in Elendel. Your uncle is up to some shady stuff. Oh... and your girlfriend is a kandra. I sent her to protect you."

 

What if that was impossible because his shards were in conflict? That puts everything in a completely different light to me. If he did all he could do, then yes, this was probably the best course of action, if he could have told Wax, but didnt, then no, then he screwed up.

while i can agree with the argument in principle, accepting it would make all the discussion moot. ok, so harmony did the best he could because he has future vision and saw that anything else would have been worse, or maybe he did not take the many better options because his constrains forced him to take exactly the path he took. and we have no way of knowing that. we can't make a debate over those premises.

Edited October 10, 2015 by king of nowhere

[Argent he/him]

I wasn't accounting for futuresight when I thought of the poll. I was curious whether people felt Harmony's reasoning (excluding the "I saw the future, it had to be this way" argument) was sound. 

[Douglas]

I don't think that assumption is suppported by the story. Wax still found out bleeder was his wife, and he still shoot her. he would have done the right thing. especially since the plan was to spare her life anyway. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that if wax had known her motivations, he may have been able to talk her out of it.

It's not a matter of Wax refusing to stop her, but of Wax being distracted and less strongly resolved, reducing his effective level of competence.

 

And what if she was beyond talking out of it? If Wax knew her identity from the beginning, he might have planned to talk her out of it and focused on that enough to neglect or even outright refuse devising alternative solutions. Wax warned in advance could well mean Wax with no Hemalurgy bullet, because he might not have accepted in advance that such a measure could be necessary.

[ArchonTremaine]

I don't know how you can really answer this poll because obviously we don't know what Harmony knows. We only know what's presented in the book. I think he's done the best we can, and if we disagree it's likely because we don't know what he does.

 

The other option would be that no he didn't do the best he could because he's being manipulated into somehow thinking he's doing what's best.

 

 

or that he did what the Ruin part of him enjoyed most, sadism and cruelty, and used Preservation to aim the result.  I cannot forgive him for that, as he unleashed the cruelty on people who had done nothing to deserve it, and destroyed their happiness with no reward.

[king of nowhere]

It's not a matter of Wax refusing to stop her, but of Wax being distracted and less strongly resolved, reducing his effective level of competence.

 

And what if she was beyond talking out of it? If Wax knew her identity from the beginning, he might have planned to talk her out of it and focused on that enough to neglect or even outright refuse devising alternative solutions. Wax warned in advance could well mean Wax with no Hemalurgy bullet, because he might not have accepted in advance that such a measure could be necessary.

yes, and the solution to that was to expose him to a revelation that distracted him even more, and in the middle fo a chase scene/gunfight, no less. that's exactly the very worst time at which he could have learned it. unless harmony hoped that wax would never learn of it, and would take bleeder's attempts to identify herself as lessie as just lies to distract him. which could have happened, or not. Personally, I'd have told wax and trusted him to get over it, rather than risking him finding out and getting distracted at the wrong moment.

not to mention permanently weakening wax's trust of harmony: the next time god will ask wax to do something, wax may as well tell him to get bent. in the long run, mistreating your underlings rarely work.

 

Anyway, harmony himself admits to not being infallible. shardic power expanded his intelligence, but he's by no mean omniscient or perfect. He can make mistakes, and I believe he made several. his shardic intent probably didn't help, either.

[hypatia she/her]

That's my problem - the result at the end of SoS is the alienation of Harmony and one of his chosen agents.

And because of the Thriller-Motives in this books I can't stop asking myself:

Cui bono?

Would Sazed want or even risk the trust of the man he was trying to protect?

Or is this whole affair the manipulation of another Shard influencing Scandrial/Paalm?

Who would want a break between Harmony and his agent, perhaps even his champion?

[AerionBFII he/him]

YES!!

 

Sazed was always a good guy but centuries have passed and bearing Harmony Shard would have effected him by slowly changing him, he would slowly find it harder and harder to act and be more harmonic but really not even Sazed can lead everybody by the nose moving them around so they could all fly high on a cloud of happy mushy love. He has given them an incredibly fertile land, with perfect natural resources he interferes now and again helping and nudging to get the best possible result...He hurt Wax but i believe he chose the best possible option or to speak more plainly the lesser of two evils..

 

I don't see what more he can do..There is no such thing as a perfect system. The best you can do is help as many people as possible and help shelter those who fall through the cracks.

[Vortaan he/him]

I wonder if at this point Harmony is caught in a trap. He has to either do nothing, or fulfill the function of both his Shards. He Preserved Elendel by manipulating Wax, but Ruined Wax's love with Lessie. He Preserves the kandra by helping Wax take down Bleeder, but Ruins Wax's faith in god... It seems to me that maybe Harmony is trapped in a cycle where he can't Preserve without Ruining, and needs to figure out the way to create the most amount of good for the largest amount of people by causing the smallest amount of harm. Poor Wax just ends up being the chew toy.

[DreamEternal]

I don't see what more he can do..There is no such thing as a perfect system. The best you can do is help as many people as possible and help shelter those who fall through the cracks.

What more he could do depends on whatever Bloody Tan killing Lessie was part of his plan to bring Wax to Elendel. If yes, then he instead could have been honest to Wax and simply used a kandra or the earring to ask him for help. No matter how much Wax hates the city, he would have listened and most likely complied.

If, however, the Bloody Tan incident was being influenced by whoever Trell is, then I suppose I could forgive Sazed.

[AerionBFII he/him]

It has already been stated that Harmony can't do whatever he wants, he finds it difficult to interfere as it is.

I doubt it is as simple as that, say Lessie did survive and Wax finds out she was a Kandra how would he react to that?

I believe Saze/Harmony foresaw the future and picked the best option available, Wax was hurt but nobody knows how things would play out if things had taken a different turn.

I personally agree with what you said about BloodyTan and him being controlled by 'Trell'. It seems to me though that to be 'Harmony' you would be more interested in seeing the whole picture running in Harmony than the life of one man.

* sorry I accidentally down voted you scrolling on my phone could some body up vote cognitivepulsepattern :|

[ArchonTremaine]

It has already been stated that Harmony can't do whatever he wants, he finds it difficult to interfere as it is.

I doubt it is as simple as that, say Lessie did survive and Wax finds out she was a Kandra how would he react to that?

I believe Saze/Harmony foresaw the future and picked the best option available, Wax was hurt but nobody knows how things would play out if things had taken a different turn.

I personally agree with what you said about BloodyTan and him being controlled by 'Trell'. It seems to me though that to be 'Harmony' you would be more interested in seeing the whole picture running in Harmony than the life of one man.

* sorry I accidentally down voted you scrolling on my phone could some body up vote cognitivepulsepattern :|

done.

[AerionBFII he/him]

done.

Thanks

[DreamEternal]

I believe Saze/Harmony foresaw the future and picked the best option available, Wax was hurt but nobody knows how things would play out if things had taken a different turn.

The problem with this argument is that it makes any discussion or criticism of Sazed's actions completely pointless. We must make our judgement of his actions based on what we know, and be willing to change it because we don't know everything.

How do we know that it would hurt Wax more, not less, to know his girlfriend was a Kandra? In this case, I believe it is best to be honest. If it was all part of Harmony's plan, then he thought it was better to withold information and outright decieve, something I don't see as necessary or good based on my current knowledge.

All in all, it is too soon to give my final judgement, but I disaprove slightly of Sazed's methods, even if I agree he has benefical intentions towards humanity.

[Ari he/him]

If Harmony hasn't been dramatically changed from Sazed, I definitely trust him at this point. He was one of the most caring characters in the Era 1 stories, and I can't see him using Wax like this unless his available actions were drastically curtailed by his conflicting Intents.

 

That said, that doesn't necessarily mean that Harmony noticed everything he should and might not have missed another way out of "Trell's" trap. But Sazed wouldn't manipulate someone like he seems to have manipulated Wax if he had a better choice. His methods were distasteful, but in extreme situations sometimes it's a choice of the least bad option, and Sazed doesn't seem to have violated any of his principles.

 

In fact, I take issue with the people who say that Harmony witholding information is in conflict with his desire to see Scadrial become more self-sufficient. In fact, if you were a God or other very powerful being interacting with people with a much more limited perception, giving them all relevant information whenever you talk to them would quickly make them less and less self-sufficient. Learning how to gather your own information and come to your own conclusions is an important part of "growing up", which might be a bit of a dreadful analogy in this case but it is the most ready one. If Sazed doesn't let people use their own initiative and senses to find out some things, then he might as well just be issuing commands to them and moving them around like puppets, exactly like Paalm accuses him of doing.

 

That said, was it a bad move not to tell Wax who Paalm was? At least to some degree, yes, of course. It's especially terrible if he actually did intend Paalm and Wax to form a relationship when he assigned Paalm to guard him, as was alleged in the book, or if he took any action to stop Wax from finding out, that's also incredibly bad form. But if he didn't intend the two to form a relationship in the first place, and decided Paalm should be the one to tell Wax who she was, and it coming from him would just hurt Wax even more, I can accept that as the least bad option in this situation. But we really don't know enough about what was going on for Harmony in this situation to really judge very well the ethics of it, and I expect we may not ever find out, either. Harmony has the luxury of acting on much more perfect information than we do, and given how kind his personality was in previous novels, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt for now. If a lot more things like this continually happen... well, then I'd be very worried about what's happened to Sazed.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Ari

[Angsos]

Sazed could also be playing Cosmere chess with Trell, and could potentially be more heavy-handed then he wants