Cultivation Lost Her Power

[Araris Valerian]

I theorize that the person of Cultivation has very little access to the shard of Cultivation. Here is my background information:

 

Honorspren are the reason that Honor being shattered didn't effect the cognitive realm as much as on Sel, where a specific comparison to Seons, splinters of Devotion, has been made. Also, Cultivationspren exist (and thus might be splinters).

 

Shards in all their power have rarely been able to appear to people lacking access to said shards power in some strength. Allomancers can see the mist spirit Everyone can see the mist spirit which is detached from its respective shard, and only spiked people could see Ruin's corporeal form. Additionally, Vin specifically appeared to Elend, an Allomancer in HoA. Honor has only appeared in human form so far to surgebinders like Dalinar and Kaladin. The Nightwatcher has some form approachable by humans. We know that cultivation was female, but the Rosharians recognize her as such, which implies some sort of being that may be in corporeal form. The base investiture by a shard is not enough to allow such interactions, as seen with Ruin, who very specifically could only appear to someone with a spike. Thus normal rosharians might not be able to see a shard that isn't more strongly invested in them (A possible exception to this argument involves feruchemists and whether or not they should have been able to see the spirit with Alendi at the Well)

 

A parallel has been drawn between the mists and highstorms. The mists served to counter Ruin's power passively until a new Preservation came around. Highstorms could serve the same purpose of countering Odium. This would leave a fully empowered Cultivation capable of clearing out Odium's various investitures from Roshar, which has not been done.

 

Leras was able to detach himself from his shardic power, so perhaps shards can do this to one another.

 

In short, the nightwatcher appears to be recognizable as female, has much less influence on her world opposed to other shards, has spren that may be her splinters, and can be seen by non-invested humans. These suggest to me that by some means she has been deprived of her powers.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Araris Valerian

[name_here]

Uh, Elend could see the mist spirit before he took Lerasium. I expect any Shard at liberty could just show up wherever and be perceived by whoever they want.

Edited November 19, 2013 by name_here

[Oudeis]

This... is all highly speculative. To avoid confusion, I wish you would indicate when you are giving your opinion or assumptions, rather than stating them as though they are fact. There are people who come to this forum who will get very confused, and think that you're saying things because they're true, not because you're trying to brainstorm one unlikely but possible interpretation of events. Just one man's opinion.

[Araris Valerian]

Uh, Elend could see the mist spirit before he took Lerasium. I expect any Shard at liberty could just show up wherever and be perceived by whoever they want.

I forgot about this. My explanation is that the mist spirit no longer had access to the power of preservation which had prevented its appearance. Also, Ruin very specifically could not appear to Spook or Vin when they were unspiked. This is my main example.

 

@Darnam I guess I feel like anyone who visits this form will see several theories like this one such as Moogle's interpretation of the Davar/Ghostblood thing. The fact that no shard holding its power has been able to appear to non-invested humans, along with the existence of Cultivationspren, seem enough evidence to give my theory potential merit. By this point not much else is left to theorize on and I wanted to have some discussions on what people though of my ideas. That being said, I did follow your earlier advice about posting speculative information and I specifically stated I theorize... I do understand where you are coming from given my topic title, and should have added a question mark at the end. Do you know of a way to change this?

Edited November 20, 2013 by Araris Valerian

[Oudeis]

But again... you just presented those two things as fact, when they are not. You don't KNOW that Shards cannot appear to the unInvested, and in fact someone else has provided proof that they can, as Preservation did. And unless you have a source I don't, you're simply assuming that Wyndle is a cultivationspren because it seems obvious. For that matter, you're assuming that honorspren are the reason Roshar isn't suffering Sel effects. Yes, you present one theory, and you do clearly say "this is only a theory," which is swell. But then you provide reams of supporting evidence as fact when they are at best guesses, and as has been shown at worst actually false.

 

I like talking a lot about the potential cosmeric uses of allomantic copper and bronze. When I do, I put up big banners at the start of each post warning people they are entering speculationland, and that nothing I say is supported. Obviously I think I go a bit overboard, but your policy seems to be to state your guesses as fact, and just trust that everyone else knows not to take you seriously. There must be some kind of middle ground that wouldn't take much effort on your part, but would let people know whether they are reading something you're speculating on (which again, I'm not against, speculation can be amazing fun) or whether they're reading something you think is actually supported by the source materials.

[Shardlet]

Everyone can see the mist spirit which is detached from its respective shard, and only spiked people could see Ruin's corporeal form.

 

A point and a nitpick, Preservation was not detached from the power of his shard.  He spent his mind in forming Ruin's prison.  This left his power intact, but left himself a shadow (if you'll pardon the analogy) of himself.  Also, Ruin manifested himself as an illusory presence not corporeally. 

 

The fact that no shard holding its power has been able to appear to non-invested humans, along with the existence of Cultivationspren, seem enough evidence to give my theory potential merit.

 

The rub with this statement is, the only fully complete (not meaning uninvested) Shard that we've met is Harmony.  We have not seen that such a limitation exists.  We have only not seen him do so.  As to Ruin, Ruin was without his body (a substantial portion of his power).  Preservation has been shown to appear to a non-allomancer.  Besides all of that, it is clear that different Shards have varying abilities.  Some Shards are better at seeing the future than others.  Ruin could speak into people's minds but not hear their thoughts.  Preservation could hear thoughts but not speak into people's minds.  We should not leap to assume a lack of ability in one Shard indicates a lack of that aility in all Shards.

[Araris Valerian]

@Darnam I agree with what you are saying and just assumed that the Cosmere Theories Section was accepted to have a lot of speculation in it, which would lead to people not assuming that I had 100% evidence for my suggestions. This theory appears to mostly be speculation now due to my misinterpretation of how Leras fit in the system of shards and slivers. The general attitude on this forum about spren is that there is a spectrum ranging from honor to cultivation. I reasoned that including that position in my theory would be fine. I simply found a possible explanation for several coinciding phenomena that fit said phenomena with some assumptions thrown in. Given that Cultivation is still a shard and has been one since the start, her sole purpose should be to cultivate at this point. Since our knowledge of her is mostly lacking this behavior, something is up. Splintering is a possible explanation.

[Scott]

I don't think this theory is very likely.  All of the Shards/Shardholders we've seen have either been alive or splintered.  No-one has "given up" the power of their Shard.  

 

I think Cultivation is alive and healthy, albeit pissed off and depressed about the death of her lover.  Nothing we've seen in the text suggest any differently.  There is a ton of information telling us Honor is gone, but Cultivation has only one or two references in the entire book.

 

The most info we have about her is from the Steelhunt and that strongly suggests she's still around.

[Isomere]

I won't be surprised if cultivation has lost some of her power. All we have are hints and shadows, but she was pretty tight with Honor. Since something bad happened to him it's possible the same or similar occurred to her. I've long suspected both shards were somewhat affected when Honor was splintered, but as of yet I don't see any strong evidence to refute or support the idea. Even though the holder of cultivation is alive, we have no WOB on the status of her shard, and have no idea what the splintering process involves or how it affects the holder.

As for the OP: we just don't know enough about shards to confirm they can't manifest physically. Its a reasonable theory, but even if true cultivation could be using other means to portray herself as a female to those who visit. do they actually touch her? is she mental projection, sensory illusion or fully corporeal? Do they need to enter her Shardpool to communicate? We dont know if the Nightmother is truly weak or just apathetic etc, and the splinters of cultivation may have been intentional. I like the theory that she is weakened and think it is plausible, but the evidence seems scant.

[Araris Valerian]

I feel afraid that Shallan is going to sneak up behind me after posting this theory. Also, it is quite possible that she mentally projects herself onto visitors since her curses are neurologically related. The strongest argument for Cultivation being weakened is that if she held the full power of her shard then its intent would influence her to cultivate Roshar. At least to me, life on Roshar seems more exotic but also more scarce when compared to the life on earth, or even in Shinovar. Wild tangent warning, perhaps part of Cultivation is trapped in Shinovar which is sheltering the land beyond what the mountains do.

[name_here]

Her Intent would make her try to cultivate Roshar.

[Vortaan]

I won't be surprised if cultivation has lost some of her power. All we have are hints and shadows, but she was pretty tight with Honor. Since something bad happened to him it's possible the same or similar occurred to her. I've long suspected both shards were somewhat affected when Honor was splintered, but as of yet I don't see any strong evidence to refute or support the idea. Even though the holder of cultivation is alive, we have no WOB on the status of her shard, and have no idea what the splintering process involves or how it affects the holder.

As for the OP: we just don't know enough about shards to confirm they can't manifest physically. Its a reasonable theory, but even if true cultivation could be using other means to portray herself as a female to those who visit. do they actually touch her? is she mental projection, sensory illusion or fully corporeal? Do they need to enter her Shardpool to communicate? We dont know if the Nightmother is truly weak or just apathetic etc, and the splinters of cultivation may have been intentional. I like the theory that she is weakened and think it is plausible, but the evidence seems scant.

 

If I could remember what thread I posted it in I'd link it, but there was a discussion about the fissures that Investiture seems to tear in people. It's more noticeable in Hemalurgy, where a lot of Investiture is put into one body, but another great example is Vin's transformation after absorbing the mists. Personally I think any Shard has so much Investiture that manifesting in a corporeal body on the Physical realm would instantly cause the fissures to tear that person apart. I also kind of think that the interesting thing Sazed could have learned from Ati and Leras' bodies was how to protect himself from this effect. Time will tell, however.

 

Note: The phrase I think is probably a really good one to use to avoid Shallan stabbing you for errogence.

[Shardlet]

If I could remember what thread I posted it in I'd link it, but there was a discussion about the fissures that Investiture seems to tear in people. It's more noticeable in Hemalurgy, where a lot of Investiture is put into one body, but another great example is Vin's transformation after absorbing the mists. Personally I think any Shard has so much Investiture that manifesting in a corporeal body on the Physical realm would instantly cause the fissures to tear that person apart. I also kind of think that the interesting thing Sazed could have learned from Ati and Leras' bodies was how to protect himself from this effect. Time will tell, however.

 

Note: The phrase I think is probably a really good one to use to avoid Shallan stabbing you for errogence.

 

I don't think that this is precisely true in terms of the physical.  As evidenced by the bodies of Ati and Leras dropping into the physical after their deaths.  If their physical bodies had literal fissures torn through them, they would have been much messier after their deaths.  I suspect that the fissures are more metaphorical.

[Vortaan]

I don't think that this is precisely true in terms of the physical.  As evidenced by the bodies of Ati and Leras dropping into the physical after their deaths.  If their physical bodies had literal fissures torn through them, they would have been much messier after their deaths.  I suspect that the fissures are more metaphorical.

 

It might be literally true in that when the Shardic power is removed, the body recoalses. Actually, considering how both Ati and Leras appeared, that doesn't seem to be out of the realm of possibility. 

[name_here]

Shards at full power are apparently capable of creating matter and life, so even if they can't physically manifest they could just manufacture and dispose of a mouthpiece as needed for basically the same effect.

[Vortaan]

Shards at full power are apparently capable of creating matter and life, so even if they can't physically manifest they could just manufacture and dispose of a mouthpiece as needed for basically the same effect.

 

I don't think this is true across the board. Creation of matter has to align with a Shard's Intent for it to happen. For example, I think Ruin was incapable of ever creating anything. I'd wager that most other Shards would have less of a problem, although some might kind of back door it by manipulating matter that is already there rather than creating new matter from nothing. In particular, I doubt Cultivation can make anything from nothing, she probably has to have some kind of starting point.