Hemalurgy in the cosmere

[Lord Ruler he/him]

So my friend told me Brandon Sanderson has gone on record saying how hemalurgy is the most important mist born metal art, and i didn't believe him. Honestly, the hemalurgy table is sort of bland except for stealing feruchimal and allomantic powers. even figuring out what spikes the Kandra have (blessing of potency-Steel, blessing of one ness, zinc, etc) got old. UNTIL he said that hemalurgy could steal more than just mist born magic. We could use it with breath and awakened metal, or one of the knight radiant surges essences, etc. etc. Ive heard that it is based on blood, as is one of the essences in WoR so if another splintered shard picked up ruins/harmonys hemalurgy tricks, that could explain the honor blades and such. The fact that brandon sanderson actually said this is really the only leg this has to stand on but i want to see what you guys think.

 

BTW what metal is in Waxilliums earing when he speaks to harmony? And who did he kill to get it through harmony? Can harmony change the laws of hemalurgy now that he is a double shard?

 

Btw also excuse my spelling 

[Voidus]

So my friend told me Brandon Sanderson has gone on record saying how hemalurgy is the most important mist born metal art, and i didn't believe him. Honestly, the hemalurgy table is sort of bland except for stealing feruchimal and allomantic powers. even figuring out what spikes the Kandra have (blessing of potency-Steel, blessing of one ness, zinc, etc) got old. UNTIL he said that hemalurgy could steal more than just mist born magic. We could use it with breath and awakened metal, or one of the knight radiant surges essences, etc. etc. Ive heard that it is based on blood, as is one of the essences in WoR so if another splintered shard picked up ruins/harmonys hemalurgy tricks, that could explain the honor blades and such. The fact that brandon sanderson actually said this is really the only leg this has to stand on but i want to see what you guys think.

 

BTW what metal is in Waxilliums earing when he speaks to harmony? And who did he kill to get it through harmony? Can harmony change the laws of hemalurgy now that he is a double shard?

 

Btw also excuse my spelling 

Wax's earing came from a dead inquisitor from the time of final empire, it probably wouldn't have a significant enough charge to do much. It's pretty widely speculated that it contains some allomantic pewter abilities that helped Wax out but that's just speculation as far as I know.

But yeah Hemalurgy's essentially one of the most interesting and useful abilities in the cosmere if you don't have any particular scruples about murdering people. Even with just the abilities from mistborn to steal you could turn yourself into another Lord Ruler.

[Landis963 he/him]

Yeah, the interactions with other forms of Investiture are where Hemalurgy really shines.  And Wax didn't kill anyone to get his earring - didn't even know it was anything other than a ceremonial prop until Harmony started actually talking to him (and even then, he was convinced it was confirmation bias until the fight with Miles).  MeLaan gave it to him (she's the "woman he'd met on that train ride" who converted him in the first place) and WoB says it was created from a melted-down Inquisitor spike.  Alloy of Law doesn't mention what type of metal it is, and the chart on the coppermind doesn't attribute any other metals to the earlobe bind point than Bronze.  (Although it could be extrapolated that the earlobe bind point grants the allomantic power of that metal, given that a bronze spike allowed Vin to double her bronze burning ability, and therefore Wax's Path earring grants him the pewter-burning ability he used in the warehouse fight, which Harmony capitalized on by sending him phantom pewter).   

 

EDIT: However, even if it did grant something, it wouldn't have enough charge to really do much, because it's been centuries since the Final Empire, and clearly the earring looked benign enough to accept from a stranger on a train.  

Edited October 4, 2015 by Landis963

[Yata he/him]

There are probably some "requirements" to use the Hemalurgy in other planets.

[Voidus]

There are probably some "requirements" to use the Hemalurgy in other planets.

Other than Atium to make spikes with I don't think there would be.

[Yata he/him]

Other than Atium to make spikes with I don't think there would be.

To be honest I thought about two possible ways to use Hemalurgy with someone not from Scadrial:

1) Use an Atium Spike (the more easy).

2) Give to the victim a little of Ruin's Investiture in someway before spiked him and you could use any right metal to make the Spike.

 

The second it's the "standard Hemalurgy", simply we "emulate" a "Standard people of Scadrial".

Edited October 4, 2015 by Yata

[DreamEternal]

Other than Atium to make spikes with I don't think there would be.

There is nothing atium can do that other metal can't if it is in the right position. The only problem is that you need intent(or ruin's mental influence) to be able to steal anything, and you need to know exactly where to spike. You can't just discover it in your own.

Still, it is infinitly easier to be used of-world than any other magic, simply by virtue of only needing especific knowledge.

Edited October 4, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Voidus]

There is nothing atium can do that other metal can't if it is in the right position. The only problem is that you need intent(or ruin's mental influence) to be able to steal anything, and you need to know exactly where to spike. You can't just discover it in your own.

Still, it is infinitly easier to be used of-world than any other magic, simply by virtue of only needing especific knowledge.

We know that Atium can be used to steal any trait, we don't know that any other metal can be used off-world, it might be that gem-spikes are needed to steal Rosharian Investiture normally but I'd bet that Atium would still work.

And you need intent and to hit the right area but you don't need to know it's the right area beforehand, TLR still conducted Hemalurgic research which should be impossible if you have to know ahead of time whether or not it will work.

[Yata he/him]

We know that Atium can be used to steal any trait, we don't know that any other metal can be used off-world, it might be that gem-spikes are needed to steal Rosharian Investiture normally but I'd bet that Atium would still work.

And you need intent and to hit the right area but you don't need to know it's the right area beforehand, TLR still conducted Hemalurgic research which should be impossible if you have to know ahead of time whether or not it will work.

I thought about the Hemalurgy in general.

For example if you want to stole the Strenght of a Selish guy, you could use an Iron Spike but without some Ruin's Investiture, there isn't any Hemalurgy. Therefore you must use Atium's Spike or give to the victim some Ruin's Investiture.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Yata

[Landis963 he/him]

The main problem with using Hemalurgy off-Scadrial is that 1) you don't know the right metal (there are a total of 56 metals unaccounted for - Cadmium/Bendalloy, Chromium/Nicrosil, and Electrum, plus atium, lerasium, harmonium, and their alloys) and 2) you don't know the right bind points to steal or bestow it in the first place.  Admittedly, straight atium obviates the first requirement by WoB (except people on Scadrial don't know that) and the coppermind says most attributes can be stolen through the heart, but that doesn't say where exactly the spike should be placed in order to bestow the power it nabbed, or what happens if the stealing bind point (either bind point, for that matter) is incorrect.  

 

EDIT: Sorry, auto-formatting, I'm not normally that smug.  

 

EDIT EDIT: I had Chromium twice.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Landis963

[Oudeis he/him]

Do you have somewhere this quote from Brandon that hemalurgy is the most important art? I know that one of the Ars Arcana, the writer comments that it is of the most interest to him/her. I've never heard it from the man himself.

[Voidus]

Do you have somewhere this quote from Brandon that hemalurgy is the most important art? I know that one of the Ars Arcana, the writer comments that it is of the most interest to him/her. I've never heard it from the man himself.

 

 

QUESTION

Would a Hemalurgic spike take surges?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hemalurgy can interact with every one of the magics. I designed it specifically in writing Mistborn for future use. Because some of the magics are so limited by their planet I wanted one that transcended all of them and Hemalurgy is very important to the entire cosmere Its invention is a thing of great power and great danger to the entire cosmere.

Is the closest I can find.

[Yata he/him]

To be honest I don't think that It's possible to steal "a surge", it's possible (for me) to steal a bond (also a Nahel Bond) and all its pros e contros (but the surgebinder are an oddly case with its Oaths).

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

It's hard to speculate on properly as with so little info but there are a few things to consider;

 

1) There isn't a gurantee that the spike/piercing material necessarily has to be metal (as we've only seen Haemalurgy on Scadrial as far as we know). It is possible that on other planets, it might require that specific planetary focus (any attempts at answers have been RAFO'd) but it is possible that Atium could be used as the Universal skeleton spike so to speak (or whatever form it could take on other planets)

 

2) We can't necessarily assume that the bind points will be the same between magic systems (perhaps physical traits maybe) as each magic system produces the same effects in different ways, or that the spike has to go through a specific bind point for you to access the power (I was under the impression that so long as a body part was pierced by the spike, you could access the trait as demonstrated by the other guy Spook was dealing with in HoA. Oudeis, any clarification on this?)

 

3) I can see Brandon's reasoning as it has a wide, if not universal application across the Cosmere as you can access magic system theoretically

 

Something just occurred to me; seeing as Wax's earring is part of a melted down spike, is it possible for a Haemalurgic spike to be melted down into something similar like TLR's bands and then have the pierce the skin like from TFE?

[Ari he/him]

To be honest I don't think that It's possible to steal "a surge", it's possible (for me) to steal a bond (also a Nahel Bond) and all its pros e contros (but the surgebinder are an oddly case with its Oaths).

 

We've seen that surgebinding is accessible through ways other than the Nahel bond already with Szeth's honourblade, so I wouldn't go around assuming that Nahel bonds are the only way (or even the only other way) to become a Surgebinder.

 

It's also entirely possible that hemalurgy can steal access to a Surge from a Knight Radiant without affecting the Nahel bond or the Radiant's access to the other Surge, if used in a non-lethal fashion. But as pointed out above, at this point, we don't know enough about Hemalurgy to speculate. It seems likely that as an Atium spike steals all metallic abilities, it should also steal non-scadrian investiture.

 

Also, this could be an additional reason Harmony is dangerous. It may be that being a Shard on Scadrial is what gave Preservation the knowledge of bind points that The Lord Ruler could use to create Kandra, Koloss, and Inquisitors when he gained access to the sliver of Preservation's power. And then there's also the possibility that stealing investiture through Hemalurgy might unbalance the relative power of the Shards depending on who you "staple" the stolen Spiritual DNA to by spiking them in the right bind point.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Ari

[Ascendant Warrior he/him]

Source:

Kurkistan

Can Hemalurgy be used to steal Shardblades directly, transferring ownership from the victim to the spike's recipient without a need for the recipient to physically take the Shardblade first?

Brandon Sanderson

A novel use of Hemalurgy which is not outside the sphere of its powers.

 

To my understanding, this WoB would indicate that the bond with the corresponding spren is being stolen. Granted, it doesn't specify a live or dead sprenblade, so there is some wiggle-room.

[Yata he/him]

Source:

 

To my understanding, this WoB would indicate that the bond with the corresponding spren is being stolen. Granted, it doesn't specify a live or dead sprenblade, so there is some wiggle-room.

With a Dead Spren is quite "easy" and you obtain the Shardblade.

With a living Spren is quite hard because the bond need the right "Ethics" from the Human and also the Spren could simply release the Bond (it's not pleasure to him but better then stay bonded with somebody hated by him.

[aon he/him]

Brandon Sanderson has gone on record saying how hemalurgy is the most important mist born metal art

 

I can't find the exact quote, but I believe that it was more in response to the question "What is the most important metalic art?" he responded that none are more 'important' but admitedly Hemalurgy is the most cosmere-relevant (Which we can presume is due to the fact he has gone on record stating that it is indeed possible to use Hemalurgy to steal different abilities in different shard worlds). 

 

In regards to using Hemalurgy on Roshar to steal Surges, I have a theory that it would instead use Gemstone (Someone has asked Brandon what would happen if you tried to use something other than Metal, listing wood and gems, for Hemalurgy which Brandon RAFO'd) Someone above stated that we wouldn't know the bind points Hemalurgy of the Surges, I would say that perhaps the Ten Essences would be a possible guide? 

Though I would say Hemalurgy to steal a Shardblade would be somewhat redundant... Hemalurgy requires killing someone (or something) to steal it's power - you would then have no need to transfer the bond to yourself, as the Shardblade would be yours for the taking.
 

[Fatebreaker he/him]

It's also noted that spikes don't necessarily have to be large, and that the inquisitor spikes had their size for intimidation purposes. It might be possible to have a number of long thin spikes going into the same bind point, thus making it easier to accommodate numerous abilities.

[Yata he/him]

It's also noted that spikes don't necessarily have to be large, and that the inquisitor spikes had their size for intimidation purposes. It might be possible to have a number of long thin spikes going into the same bind point, thus making it easier to accommodate numerous abilities.

Ok with "the size doesn't matter" thing but I am not sure that you can put more than a Spike in the same bind point. My logic says No but there isn't proof.

[Fatebreaker he/him]

I agree, it hasn't been confirmed and it's just speculation at this point, but it would open up vast potential for the art of Hemalurgy if multiple traits could be attached to one bind point.

[Oudeis he/him]

2) We can't necessarily assume that the bind points will be the same between magic systems (perhaps physical traits maybe) as each magic system produces the same effects in different ways, or that the spike has to go through a specific bind point for you to access the power (I was under the impression that so long as a body part was pierced by the spike, you could access the trait as demonstrated by the other guy Spook was dealing with in HoA. Oudeis, any clarification on this?)

 

I ... don't understand what you're saying here? Or what I'm supposed to clarify. Sorry? Could you rephrase?

 

Sorry for the late response, I left 17s entirely until I had finished the new book.

 

Source:

 

To my understanding, this WoB would indicate that the bond with the corresponding spren is being stolen. Granted, it doesn't specify a live or dead sprenblade, so there is some wiggle-room.

 

That quote was from 2012, before we knew live sprenblades were a thing, or had ever seen one. On balance, I'm gonna say since one of those two things were known at the time and the other was at best speculated, there's not really wiggle-room; the quote clearly meant dead Blades.

[Yata he/him]

That quote was from 2012, before we knew live sprenblades were a thing, or had ever seen one. On balance, I'm gonna say since one of those two things were known at the time and the other was at best speculated, there's not really wiggle-room; the quote clearly meant dead Blades.

I agree with Oudeis.

If The Spren dies during the Spiking you obtain a Dead Shardblade.

If the Sprem living quite well during the Spiking, probably dies by the Not-Oath-Affinity to the new Partner.

 

Anyway I think that the Spren doesn't survive to the Spiking, because for an X time (that could be just a moment) He will be without a "partner" resulting in a immediate Broken-Bond.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Yata

[Stormgate he/him]

It seems that the discussion has wandered away from the point (or one of them) about what makes Hemalurgy the most important Metallic Art. Both Feruchemistry and Allomancy focus on the physical realm, while touching on the other realms. From the wording that Sanderson gives in the Ars Arkenaum(pardon the spelling), he uses the term Spiritweb. I have little idea what the Spiritweb is, but it seems that that alone makes Hemalurgy the most important Art, since we know so little about the Spiritual Realm.

[Ari he/him]

Source:

 

To my understanding, this WoB would indicate that the bond with the corresponding spren is being stolen. Granted, it doesn't specify a live or dead sprenblade, so there is some wiggle-room.

 

Just because you can steal a dead-Spren bond that way, doesn't mean that Spren Bonds are the only thing that can be stolen. If you read my post very carefully, you'll see I was simply saying it may be possible to steal access to individual surges, not that this was the only way Hemalurgy on Roshar could be done. (Although I imagine that it's going to be either stealing an individual surge, or stealing the entire Spren bond. Given the supposed paralells between Twinborns and the Knights Radiant, pending further evidence my money is tentatively on "Hemulargy steals single surges on Roshar")