Possible way to compound allomancy

[Bugsy]

I would argue that you logically could store any allomantic power in a metalmind composed of the same metal as the the respective power. This is mainly because we already know that Preservation/Harmony has already invested the metal with the allomantic power it grants, which would mean the metal could in fact be invested with the given ability.

I would also argue that the reason Miles doesn't mention allomantic compounding is likely because he's unaware of its existence. He doesn't seem the type to enjoy introspection, so he's unlikely to ever voluntarily burn non-Feruchemicaly invested gold. Because of this, he's unlikely to ever have allomantic gold and a desire to store it at the same time.

I'm a bit busy rn, so I wasn't able to read the whole thread. Sorry if this has already been suggested

[Master_Moridin]

I would argue that you logically could store any allomantic power in a metalmind composed of the same metal as the the respective power. This is mainly because we already know that Preservation/Harmony has already invested the metal with the allomantic power it grants, which would mean the metal could in fact be invested with the given ability.

 

Metals are not Allomantically invested, as EagleOfTheForestPath talked about above your post.  The metal acts as a gateway and filter for Preservation's power.

[dvoraen]

The problem with your theory, dvoraen, is that when an allomancer burns a metal, the power for the effect that produces wasn't contained in the metal. The power (or fuel, if you prefer) comes directly from Preservation, with the type of metal only determining which effect is produced.

 

As I understand your theory, the twinborn is supposed to feruchemically tap uncharged metal he or she swallowed. But the metals an allomancer uses were never invested to begin with, so there would be nothing to tap. The reserves you speak of aren't actual investiture, they're a sense the allomancer gets of how much time a certain amount of metal will allow them to access the power of Preservation. It's purely a representation, not the actual thing.

 

Also, "Why not?" is not an argument anyone should be willing to accept. Just because one can't disprove something, doesn't grant it any legitimacy. I recommend you take a look at this.

RE: Bolded.  This isn't what I'm saying.  I'm saying that the metal is burned and thereby accesses the power provided by that particular metal, and the power itself - what the Allomancer is providing by burning the metal (and he or she has to be burning it) - is what is Feruchemically tapped, as if it were a metalmind. I use the term reserve because it's very clear, quantitatively, just how much potential Allomantic power is available, depending on what metal it is, flaring the metal during burning, and so forth.  Burning the metal opens the gate to the 'reserve' I speak of, which is then Feruchemically tapped as if it were an attribute stored in a metalmind.

 

As far as the 'Why not?' goes, I concede the point there as far as proof goes, but my intention behind saying that in the first place, is that until anyone on Team Brandon actually says 'this doesn't work', it's as much a possibility as anything else discussed that hasn't been proven.  We are discussing something completely fictional, after all.  I tend to shut up about real life matters.

Edited April 10, 2016 by dvoraen

[Oudeis]

Eeeeeehhh... I'm not quite as hard-line on refusing to accept "why not?" but you must concede, it's a rather weak supporting argument. I can sorta see what you're implying, but it feels weirdly recursive... so, you burn steel, and get "the ability to burn steel," but then you tap the ability to burn steel to get... more ability to burn steel? Or are you saying that you can use feruchemy to alter the rate at which you burn steel?

[dvoraen]

Eeeeeehhh... I'm not quite as hard-line on refusing to accept "why not?" but you must concede, it's a rather weak supporting argument. I can sorta see what you're implying, but it feels weirdly recursive... so, you burn steel, and get "the ability to burn steel," but then you tap the ability to burn steel to get... more ability to burn steel? Or are you saying that you can use feruchemy to alter the rate at which you burn steel?

The idea is more that using Feruchemical tapping to actively use the Allomantically-provided power is the catalytic reaction to increase its throughput.  The power is the cesium, the tapping is the water, so to speak.  The Allomantic burning rate is unchanged, much as you tapping a metalmind is up to you how fast you want to go through the power Invested in the metalmind -- in the end you still control the rate of depletion of the metalmind's power or the actively burning metal as normal.  The same applies to Compounding a metalmind's storage: you still have active control over how much and how quickly you go through it.

 

Burning steel by itself doesn't do anything (aside from the lines) unless you Intend* to Push on them.  It just gives you access to that power.  So I was thinking if you Feruchemically tap that power you're accessing by burning the metal, as you would Feruchemically tap the power in a normally Invested metalmind, would that be the reaction that causes the vast increase in output?

 

I'm thinking I'm doing a poor job of explaining this, and that's partly because I can't think of a proper term for what's in my head.  The general idea is that I think Allomancy and Feruchemy are both a two-step process.  For Feruchemy: debilitate one attribute in yourself by storing/Investing it into a metalmind; later, you can draw on that Investment by tapping said metalmind.  For Allomancy, you 'burn' the metal (Investing yourself with that power while you do and supplies last), and then you actively use it with Intent.  I'm kind of saying that people have been doing both almost at once this whole time; the Ars Arcanum does refer to Allomancy as an 'instinctive' art, so it would make sense (particularly in the case of pewter) that you'd want to use it as soon as you access its power by burning it.  So as far as what I'm proposing is concerned: for Compounding Allomancy, you still burn the metal to gain the power to do whatever, but you Feruchemically tap that power** as part of your Intent to use it, and thereby Compound it.  (It's weird, I know.  I think I need to just make a jpg of this or something, I think.)

 

* Capital intentional.

** To use steel some more.  You burn the metal, gaining access to the "attribute" of being able to Push metal and seeing metal sources.  You tap that "attribute" to see and Push steel, and this causes it to Compound its effect.

Edited April 12, 2016 by dvoraen

[Oudeis]

Eh... well, you seem willing to accept that the bar you've passed is "cannot be proven false" and I concur. I think this is unlikely in the extreme. It doesn't really make any sense and you seem to be assuming that allomancy fundamentally works differently than it always has, assuming that in hundreds of years and two or three astoundingly good allomancers, no one has once figured out that burning metal and then getting the power are distinct steps. Also, constructive criticism, I think I understand what you're saying but it's not at all clear. You might want to consider taking a step back and trying to find new ways to word you examples, because in the past couple of posts you've mostly just re-stated the same things. If someone didn't understand the first time you said it, they're unlikely to understand if you just use the same phrasing. Maybe try approaching it from another angle, or use an analogy or something.

 

My biggest... well, one of my biggest issues is, where is the power coming from? In normal feruchemy, you're storing and tapping equal amounts of power. In allomancy, power is being externally applied to you from Preservation itself. In compounding as we know it, you use the attributes of feruchemy, but charge them with the extra power provided by allomancy.

 

It sounds like you're saying in your model, you burn steel and... if you have steel feruchemy, you just decide that the same amount of steel will burn with more power. Where does the power come from?

[dvoraen]

Eh... well, you seem willing to accept that the bar you've passed is "cannot be proven false" and I concur. I think this is unlikely in the extreme. It doesn't really make any sense and you seem to be assuming that allomancy fundamentally works differently than it always has, assuming that in hundreds of years and two or three astoundingly good allomancers, no one has once figured out that burning metal and then getting the power are distinct steps. Also, constructive criticism, I think I understand what you're saying but it's not at all clear. You might want to consider taking a step back and trying to find new ways to word you examples, because in the past couple of posts you've mostly just re-stated the same things. If someone didn't understand the first time you said it, they're unlikely to understand if you just use the same phrasing. Maybe try approaching it from another angle, or use an analogy or something.

 

My biggest... well, one of my biggest issues is, where is the power coming from? In normal feruchemy, you're storing and tapping equal amounts of power. In allomancy, power is being externally applied to you from Preservation itself. In compounding as we know it, you use the attributes of feruchemy, but charge them with the extra power provided by allomancy.

 

It sounds like you're saying in your model, you burn steel and... if you have steel feruchemy, you just decide that the same amount of steel will burn with more power. Where does the power come from?

I'll work on that.  The more I think about it, the more I need to find a scanner and draw a few pictures, because that seems to be working better than words. >_>  Thank you for the advice; this is why I hated research papers so much.  It always took me three or four tries to achieve clarity.

 

RE: Second bolded.  Tapping the source of the power that is provided by burning steel, in a nutshell.

Edited April 13, 2016 by dvoraen