TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted October 17, 2015 Author Posted October 17, 2015 Can they heal (from) leathal wounds? Anyway, The Final Empire and the FSA at least have reasons why the evil dictators keep ruling. They are just that beyond conventional weaponary. There have been several rebellions in the Final Empire and not a single one could stand up to the Lord Ruler or his magaically enhanced armies (plus they didn't have guns and explosives), even in the end a rebellion had fairly little to do with his death, that was all Vin and her Deus ex nebula. With the FSA there are people fighting back and they even have a good amount of success given their position, given weakness the attacks on them just have to be to precise for armies to do the trick. This... seems to be one of the YA distopian settings that will collaps with the first rebellion that should have come years ago. No idea, though I assume they could heal a fatal injury, if they made it in time. Something quick like decapitation would probably kill a healing Silver, though. Exactly. Each of those empires (well, a bunch of smaller fiefdoms, in the case of the FSA) had some pretty scary firepower to back up their threats, and they made it clear that those threats would be carried out. In this book, it's not clear why the Reds allowed themselves to be used as cannon fodder for a freaking century before Mare showed up. They should've fought back eighty years ago—and in the real world, they would have, unless the Silvers wised up and figured out how to use their powers to actually maintain control over the populace. And come to think of it, that would've been a more interesting story. I agree with you wholeheartedly, but be careful what you say Edge. I don't think Twi has finished The Final Empire yet. Anyway, I can try to get a Portland post up later. We'll see how Revolution copes with being scolded by the Element of Subtle Lifesaving Intervention. Oh, I have. And I know quite a few spoilers from WoA and HoA. I still want to see exactly how it all pans out. And here I thought Nathan would bear the Element of Kindness. The Element of Subtle Lifesaving Intervention seems oddly specific.
Edgedancer he/him Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 No idea, though I assume they could heal a fatal injury, if they made it in time. Something quick like decapitation would probably kill a healing Silver, though. Exactly. Each of those empires (well, a bunch of smaller fiefdoms, in the case of the FSA) had some pretty scary firepower to back up their threats, and they made it clear that those threats would be carried out. In this book, it's not clear why the Reds allowed themselves to be used as cannon fodder for a freaking century before Mare showed up. They should've fought back eighty years ago—and in the real world, they would have, unless the Silvers wised up and figured out how to use their powers to actually maintain control over the populace. And come to think of it, that would've been a more interesting story. Oh, I have. And I know quite a few spoilers from WoA and HoA. I still want to see exactly how it all pans out. And here I thought Nathan would bear the Element of Kindness. The Element of Subtle Lifesaving Intervention seems oddly specific. Has it ever been mentioned how many of those Silvers there are? Don't worry, I know exactly which Sanderson books you have read. Does that make Voidgaze the Element of Adorabness or something more specific? Kobold, I wouldn't think to complain about a Revolution post but given how long nothing has come from you in the Dalles a post there might be of higher priority to be entirely honest.
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted October 17, 2015 Author Posted October 17, 2015 Has it ever been mentioned how many of those Silvers there are? Don't worry, I know exactly which Sanderson books you have read. Does that make Voidgaze the Element of Adorabness or something more specific? Kobold, I wouldn't think to complain about a Revolution post but given how long nothing has come from you in the Dalles a post there might be of higher priority to be entirely honest. No, but given that they feel perfectly comfortable using Reds as cannon fodder, and the Red population hasn't been depleted by the hundred years of war (seriously, how are Reds not an extinct species?) I think it's safe to assume the Reds outnumber the Silvers by quite a bit. Which ones? The Element of Cute Pudgy People Dressed All In White.
Edgedancer he/him Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 No, but given that they feel perfectly comfortable using Reds as cannon fodder, and the Red population hasn't been depleted by the hundred years of war (seriously, how are Reds not an extinct species?) I think it's safe to assume the Reds outnumber the Silvers by quite a bit. Which ones? The Element of Cute Pudgy People Dressed All In White. Huh. Not Elantris, waiting for the aniverary version for that one. Rereading first mistborn before reading the others. Both SA books and Warbreaker. Naturally the Reckoners. I'm not entirely sure on the other YA ones to be honest, although I think you at last read the first Alcatraz one. That really is very specific.
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted October 17, 2015 Author Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) Huh. Not Elantris, waiting for the aniverary version for that one. Rereading first mistborn before reading the others. Both SA books and Warbreaker. Naturally the Reckoners. I'm not entirely sure on the other YA ones to be honest, although I think you at last read the first Alcatraz one. That really is very specific. Yeah. Again, I don't get why they haven't rebelled before now. Everyone is conscripted at the age of eighteen unless they hold a job deemed "essential," so it's not like the benefits of not rebelling are all that great. At this point, it's either rebel and risk death by Silvers, or not rebel and be pretty much guaranteed a death at the front lines. I read the first three Alcatraz books, and I have plans to get into the last two, but yes. Not quite as much as "Element of Cute Pudgy People Dressed All In White Who Are Dating Men Named Al." (Note that although this clearly refers to Voidgaze, it could also theoretically describe her twin brother, if he happens to wear white, be pudgy, and be currently dating a man named Al. ) Edited October 17, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles
Voidus Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 Yeah. Again, I don't get why they haven't rebelled before now. Everyone is conscripted at the age of eighteen unless they hold a job deemed "essential," so it's not like the benefits of not rebelling are all that great. At this point, it's either rebel and risk death by Silvers, or not rebel and be pretty much guaranteed a death at the front lines. I read the first three Alcatraz books, and I have plans to get into the last two, but yes. Not quite as much as "Element of Cute Pudgy People Dressed All In White Who Are Dating Men Named Al." (Note that although this clearly refers to Voidgaze, it could also theoretically describe her twin brother, if he happens to wear white, be pudgy, and be currently dating a man named Al. ) Sounds like the Hunger Games all over again, I can maybe understand why the relatively rich and comfortable underclass don't rebel but coal miners are not exactly going to be happy and safe with their lot no matter what happens. Or in this case the soldiers who are going to die anyway, I mean seriously what do you have to lose?
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted October 17, 2015 Author Posted October 17, 2015 Sounds like the Hunger Games all over again, I can maybe understand why the relatively rich and comfortable underclass don't rebel but coal miners are not exactly going to be happy and safe with their lot no matter what happens. Or in this case the soldiers who are going to die anyway, I mean seriously what do you have to lose? Yeah, I enjoyed the Hunger Games books, but the Capitol wasn't good at being a government. They were good at being an evil government, but an effective one….not so much. And this one is the same way. Come to think of it, there are a lot of really evil governments in YA dystopias lately that aren't good at the whole government thing. I get that you have to give the people a reason to rebel, but you also have to have a reason why they've taken this long to get to the rebelling. Look at some of the real-life evil governments (and there are others beside Nazi Germany, YA writers ). North Korea isolates its people to the point where they believe the rest of the world is even worse off than they, deifies its leader, and makes anyone who even thinks about rebelling disappear. Cuba made children grow up believing Fidel Castro was awesome and made their parents too fearful to teach their kids otherwise, while demonizing the United States and countries like it. I could go on, but the point is that to run an effective dictatorship, you can't just cow your people into submission. You have to make them think the cost of rebellion is higher than the cost of staying silent, and you have to give them some means of uniting. National pride. An enemy without. Something. Fear is only part of the equation. 2
Voidus Posted October 17, 2015 Posted October 17, 2015 Yeah, I enjoyed the Hunger Games books, but the Capitol wasn't good at being a government. They were good at being an evil government, but an effective one….not so much. And this one is the same way. Come to think of it, there are a lot of really evil governments in YA dystopias lately that aren't good at the whole government thing. I get that you have to give the people a reason to rebel, but you also have to have a reason why they've taken this long to get to the rebelling. Look at some of the real-life evil governments (and there are others beside Nazi Germany, YA writers ). North Korea isolates its people to the point where they believe the rest of the world is even worse off than they, deifies its leader, and makes anyone who even thinks about rebelling disappear. Cuba made children grow up believing Fidel Castro was awesome and made their parents too fearful to teach their kids otherwise, while demonizing the United States and countries like it. I could go on, but the point is that to run an effective dictatorship, you can't just cow your people into submission. You have to make them think the cost of rebellion is higher than the cost of staying silent, and you have to give them some means of uniting. National pride. An enemy without. Something. Fear is only part of the equation. Or say destroy an entire state on the northwest coast of the US. 3
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted October 17, 2015 Author Posted October 17, 2015 Or say destroy an entire state on the northwest coast of the US. That works too. 1
Voidus Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Then again the Epics also have a Nighthound on their side so I don't care how scared, angry or repressed they make people feel, every sane moral person on the planet is going to rebel against them. 2
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted October 18, 2015 Author Posted October 18, 2015 Then again the Epics also have a Nighthound on their side so I don't care how scared, angry or repressed they make people feel, every sane moral person on the planet is going to rebel against them. And then….Moral Guardian rose up as the hero the Fractured States deserved, but not the one they needed? 1
Voidus Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 And then….Moral Guardian rose up as the hero the Fractured States deserved, but not the one they needed? Or.... We do know someone whose first name is Bruce... 3
Edgedancer he/him Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 He is the pug we need to be the hero we deserve. He shall be a symbol for the Pugtopia.
Blackhoof Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 If we're gonna be serious, I vote firmly against handing over the destruction of the state to Night's Sorrow. Obliteration's one thing, but an Epic explicitly described as having destroyed all of Oregon? That's not something we can work in without doing a disservice to our current plot lines and characters. As much as it pains me to disqualify our RP from canon, I tend to agree. :'( Although of course it depends how NS actually accomplishes this destruction. For instance, if NS used her (I keep picturing her as a her, is that right, or am I making things up? Do we know NS's gender?) power/s to literally blow up the entire state, in one blow or by systematically blowing up/wiping out every town and city in the state one by one. Or if she somehow poisoned or irradiated the entire state, forcing people to leave and rendering Oregon uninhabitable. Or if the turf wars destroyed the state, and NS simply manipulated events so as to continue them indefinitely and prevent any one winner. Because from Megan's description, it sounded like the Oregon turf wars were either still going on (which BS apparently ruled out by describing the state as uninhabitable or something, never read it directly myself) or were the reason that the state was destroyed. I sort of feel like if one single Epic blew up the state, and she knew about it, then she would blame that single Epic, instead of the general state of anarchy and chaos, you know? For instance, someone who had survived Hiroshima's destruction would not describe the horrible and deadly island-hopping campaign in the pacific between the US and Japan and state that that sort of fighting is what destroyed hiroshima and that is why tyrants are justified. Like say NS blew up Oregon, and David knew about it. Then replay the conversation they have: Megan: I'm from Portland, do you know what is left of Portland? David: Uh... nothing Megan: exactly, nothing! Warring Epics tore it apart, Portland has nothing left. People here have power, and utilities, and- David: Wasn't all of Oregon blown up by Night's Sorrow? Isn't that why Portland is just rubble? Megan: Well... yeah, but before that, there were lots of warring epics around, and- David: well yeah, but doesn't that undermine your argument? I mean, Night's Sorrow could do the same thing to Illinois on a whim, Steelheart can survive that, but he can't stop it. His presence makes no difference. Megan: hmmm... guess you're right. lets get back to bombing things! In addition to that, it also seems simply inconceivable that Night's Sorrow could have the power to single-handedly destroy an entire state, when an also top-tier Epic has to wait in the sun for a week to destroy a single city. Why does the entire country not gang up on this absurdly over-powered Epic? Why doesn't Steelheart, Nightwielder, and every other High Epic in the country (other than Obliteration, who would probably consider Sorrow his BFF) not immediately drop everything and try to kill this immense threat to the existence of the very country? So my bet is that while Night's Sorrow is responsible for the state's destruction, she did not personally destroy it, but (like Malevolence) manipulated other Epics into keeping the chaos going and the entire state was collateral damage. In many ways, that is almost worse- manufacturing a neverending war and watching for your own amusement. If it is that option, then I think it can be worked in with relative ease, if we want to. And of course, it also depends upon how much of NS we see in Calamity, if any at all. Yeah, I always wondered how a character almost literally being able to kill with a look was supposed to equate to skin color. Now of course mutants are still humans and should be treated as such but so are people wielding guns and in large parts of the world, those are regulated as well. Well, Wayne's narrative in the Wild West Mistborn books (not the offical name, sadly) is pretty entertaining. I've always thought the same thing. Yeah I know registering people based on an inherent and un-chosen quality is fundamentally crappy, but mutants have amazing and potentially incredibly destructive abilities. The government would be criminally negligent not to keep tabs on their wearabouts. Although this information shouldn't really be public-access, to prevent vigilantism or social exclusion. Aww. There are some stronger powers and ones more suited to combat—for instance, here in a few chapters you'll meet Evangeline, who is basically fem!Magneto. The princes all have the ability to manipulate and amplify fire. And none of them use their powers in a manner halfway suited to wartime or even maintaining control of a kingdom. It's all shock and awe. And the Reds just take it! I mean, c'mon, I know that the idea of a prince who can fry you where you stand is terrifying, but he's clearly not going to. Also, I am finding the idea of a prologue where Curveball and Refractionary sabotage one another during a bank robbery oddly amusing. That does seem very lazy on the part of the writer and the Silvers. Bold- omg yes. You know the bank robbing scene in the beginning of The Dark Knight? I'm picturing a gang of Epic bank-robbers who keep back-stabbing and sabotaging each other over the course of the heist XD I am greatly amused No idea, though I assume they could heal a fatal injury, if they made it in time. Something quick like decapitation would probably kill a healing Silver, though. Exactly. Each of those empires (well, a bunch of smaller fiefdoms, in the case of the FSA) had some pretty scary firepower to back up their threats, and they made it clear that those threats would be carried out. In this book, it's not clear why the Reds allowed themselves to be used as cannon fodder for a freaking century before Mare showed up. They should've fought back eighty years ago—and in the real world, they would have, unless the Silvers wised up and figured out how to use their powers to actually maintain control over the populace. And come to think of it, that would've been a more interesting story. Oh, I have. And I know quite a few spoilers from WoA and HoA. I still want to see exactly how it all pans out. And here I thought Nathan would bear the Element of Kindness. The Element of Subtle Lifesaving Intervention seems oddly specific. Indeed. The already annoyed and discontented populace of Imperial Russia tolerated about three years of World War 1 before finally kicking the Tsar out of power. And they tolerated 6 months of ineffective and corrupt interim government before having another revolution after that. Yeah. Again, I don't get why they haven't rebelled before now. Everyone is conscripted at the age of eighteen unless they hold a job deemed "essential," so it's not like the benefits of not rebelling are all that great. At this point, it's either rebel and risk death by Silvers, or not rebel and be pretty much guaranteed a death at the front lines. that sounds like it is getting towards cartoonish evil. I mean, how does the population even continue if EVERYONE is conscripted like that? Sounds like the Hunger Games all over again, I can maybe understand why the relatively rich and comfortable underclass don't rebel but coal miners are not exactly going to be happy and safe with their lot no matter what happens.Or in this case the soldiers who are going to die anyway, I mean seriously what do you have to lose? I actually disagree that the Hunger Games is an example of a badly done evil government. Yes, it is true that the lives of the people in the Districts are terrible, and that once people actually rose up, the revolution seemed relatively easy. However, the Capitol certainly utilized propaganda to convince people that the costs of another rebellion would have been too high, and ended in defeat for the districts just as the first one had. And on top of the hunger games, they would face an even worse permanent punishment if they failed. And as District 12 found out, the Capitol had the firepower and the will to completely wipe out entire Districts (as people thought had happened to District 13). A combination of "safer and stronger together", plus the isolation between the districts making an uprising of more than one at a time difficult and thus discouraging all of them, plus the fear tactics and intimidation in the form of the games, gives strong incentive not to rebel. Rebellion could mean death for you, your family, and your whole district. And while the Capitol seemed relatively easy to overthrow once the rebellion started, this is consistent with many real-world rebellions and despotic regimes. They tend to be pretty fragile and their power is often more illusion that reality. Going back to Russia, when the February revolution occurred, not a single shot was fired. People took to the streets, soldiers laid down their arms, and the government realised that they needed to force the Tsar to resign. And he did. Just like that. And the October Revolution was also really easy. The Bolsheviks stormed the winter palace, barely any fighting occurred, and only a little fighting occurred in Moscow when they took that. It is true that a civil war followed several months later, but for the time being the Bolsheviks were in control and it had been very, very easy. 1
Edgedancer he/him Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 As much as it pains me to disqualify our RP from canon, I tend to agree. :'( Although of course it depends how NS actually accomplishes this destruction....And while the Capitol seemed relatively easy to overthrow once the rebellion started, this is consistent with many real-world rebellions and despotic regimes. They tend to be pretty fragile and their power is often more illusion that reality. Going back to Russia, when the February revolution occurred, not a single shot was fired. People took to the streets, soldiers laid down their arms, and the government realised that they needed to force the Tsar to resign. And he did. Just like that. And the October Revolution was also really easy. The Bolsheviks stormed the winter palace, barely any fighting occurred, and only a little fighting occurred in Moscow when they took that. It is true that a civil war followed several months later, but for the time being the Bolsheviks were in control and it had been very, very easy. I don't think we know NS gender but I tend to think of NS as female as well, if simply because I dislike the idea of the three big Epics named in Steelheart all being male. Anyway, I guess we can wait a bit longer on making a decision for NS. Now that one vacation Steelheart took in Oregon that no one talks about anymore however I like to think if fair game. On that whole dictatorship bit, here's a cracked article. http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-movies-always-get-wrong-about-dictatorships/
Voidus Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 My opinion on NS would be that s/he's a powerful Epic but like Regalia not a High Epic and unlike Regalia she doesn't have a pseudo-defenssive power that at least keeps her hidden. So I think she'd be capable of levelling an entire state but not an actual war.I will almost certainly be proven wrong come Calamity but hey, that's the fun in theorizing.
Edgedancer he/him Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 My opinion on NS would be that s/he's a powerful Epic but like Regalia not a High Epic and unlike Regalia she doesn't have a pseudo-defenssive power that at least keeps her hidden. So I think she'd be capable of levelling an entire state but not an actual war. I will almost certainly be proven wrong come Calamity but hey, that's the fun in theorizing. Eh, I dunno. I doubt an Epic that can just be shoot would make it to the same level as Steely and Oblaten.
Voidus Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Eh, I dunno. I doubt an Epic that can just be shoot would make it to the same level as Steely and Oblaten. Steely? ... Do we need to send you to Autumn's counselling sessions along with Neverthere? Well if they have the destructive capability to level an entire state it would be a pretty big deal still. In fact the best defense would be to do exactly that then just live in the middle of Oregon and blow the state up again every now and then to make sure no one could ambush you or anything.
Edgedancer he/him Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Steely? ... Do we need to send you to Autumn's counselling sessions along with Neverthere? Well if they have the destructive capability to level an entire state it would be a pretty big deal still. In fact the best defense would be to do exactly that then just live in the middle of Oregon and blow the state up again every now and then to make sure no one could ambush you or anything. Yes, Steely and Oblaten. The famous singers of the band Holy Chicago Files, that fractured after a dreadful event involving their final rendition. Unless one of the random people she keeps around to make her food or something decides to stab her.
Voidus Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Yes, Steely and Oblaten. The famous singers of the band Holy Chicago Files, that fractured after a dreadful event involving their final rendition. Unless one of the random people she keeps around to make her food or something decides to stab her. Regalia managed ok and she was bedridden so I don't think it'd be completely impossible.
Blackhoof Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 Steely? ... Do we need to send you to Autumn's counselling sessions along with Neverthere? Well if they have the destructive capability to level an entire state it would be a pretty big deal still. In fact the best defense would be to do exactly that then just live in the middle of Oregon and blow the state up again every now and then to make sure no one could ambush you or anything. I feel like that would make her even more of a target. Why would any High Epic not take a few days out of their luxurious and care-free life to hunt down and destroy this state-levelling (and defenceless) Epic that could easily wipe out their kingdoms?
Blackhoof Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 At first I thought you meant communists The realization that you didn't is much, much worse
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted October 18, 2015 Author Posted October 18, 2015 I actually disagree that the Hunger Games is an example of a badly done evil government. Yes, it is true that the lives of the people in the Districts are terrible, and that once people actually rose up, the revolution seemed relatively easy. However, the Capitol certainly utilized propaganda to convince people that the costs of another rebellion would have been too high, and ended in defeat for the districts just as the first one had. And on top of the hunger games, they would face an even worse permanent punishment if they failed. And as District 12 found out, the Capitol had the firepower and the will to completely wipe out entire Districts (as people thought had happened to District 13). A combination of "safer and stronger together", plus the isolation between the districts making an uprising of more than one at a time difficult and thus discouraging all of them, plus the fear tactics and intimidation in the form of the games, gives strong incentive not to rebel. Rebellion could mean death for you, your family, and your whole district. And while the Capitol seemed relatively easy to overthrow once the rebellion started, this is consistent with many real-world rebellions and despotic regimes. They tend to be pretty fragile and their power is often more illusion that reality. Going back to Russia, when the February revolution occurred, not a single shot was fired. People took to the streets, soldiers laid down their arms, and the government realised that they needed to force the Tsar to resign. And he did. Just like that. And the October Revolution was also really easy. The Bolsheviks stormed the winter palace, barely any fighting occurred, and only a little fighting occurred in Moscow when they took that. It is true that a civil war followed several months later, but for the time being the Bolsheviks were in control and it had been very, very easy. True, but to run an effective dictatorship, you need a carrot AND a stick. Steelheart had murderous Epics, constant surveillance, and a pervasive atmosphere of terror, but he also gave his people relative stability, provided for their basic needs, and ensured they had entertainment. You could argue that every year the Capitol lavishes one district with food and medical supplies, but this lavishing guarantees, by design, that 23 children from across the nation will die on live TV for the Capitol's amusement. How did this keep going for 75 years? At this point, most parents would decide they had nothing to lose and go after the Capitol in one last crazy suicide run.
Edgedancer he/him Posted October 18, 2015 Posted October 18, 2015 True, but to run an effective dictatorship, you need a carrot AND a stick. Steelheart had murderous Epics, constant surveillance, and a pervasive atmosphere of terror, but he also gave his people relative stability, provided for their basic needs, and ensured they had entertainment. You could argue that every year the Capitol lavishes one district with food and medical supplies, but this lavishing guarantees, by design, that 23 children from across the nation will die on live TV for the Capitol's amusement. How did this keep going for 75 years? At this point, most parents would decide they had nothing to lose and go after the Capitol in one last crazy suicide run. And Regalia had that whole hippy paradise thing going.(I'm still holding open the option the Dawnslight drugged the populance, by the way.) So... who wants to see Lucentia being a hypocrite?
TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her Posted October 18, 2015 Author Posted October 18, 2015 And Regalia had that whole hippy paradise thing going.(I'm still holding open the option the Dawnslight drugged the populance, by the way.) So... who wants to see Lucentia being a hypocrite? Drugged or not, it was something to make her dictatorship desirable. Panem is just overall a sucky place to live. She's not one already?
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