Complementary Shardumvirates (Why these Shards together?)

[Oudeis]

At the start, Aticould have agreed with Leras's motives. They originally were in control of their intentions, so they might have collaborated to counter each others powers and then Leras betrayed Ati when he realized that eventually Ruin would become more powerful.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I think Ati realized he would eventually succumb to his Intent, and so chose to Invest alongside the only being who could, and would, always counter him. Leras, for his part, was handed his own Intent on a silver platter: utter statis. Everything preserved perfectly. But while Ati caved to his Intent so much he became obsessed with destroying the entire planet, Leras actually bucked his entire Intent in order to create something new, risk utter destruction and guarantee his own death, for the hope of eventual progress. I think it would literally take more comprehension than a human brain is capable of to understand how much willpower it took Leras to fight the Intent of Preservation so hard as to set these plans in motion.

[name_here]

I think Preservation and Ruin went around opposing each other everywhere and eventually made a deal, from what we get in HoA. They set things up so Preservation could sustain a world for a long period of time and Ruin could eventually destroy it because they got sick of stalemating on everything. Of the known Shards, they're the only two that are directly opposed such that anything in alignment with one of their Intents went directly against the other. Honor and Odium are close-ish, because Honor involves subjugating personal emotions to a higher code while Odium is an emotion overriding everything else, but it's entirely possible to hold to a code of honor while hating people who violate it. Devotion and Domination can coexist as opposite ends of the same relationship, and actually when I did a split into pairings I stuck them with other Shards for oppositions.

 

I'm not entirely convinced Leras was more successful in fighting the Intent of Preservation. One important phase of his whole plan was dying and being replaced by someone fresh enough to be unaffected by the Intent, after all. I think he was just early enough in the process to still arrange for his Intent to be violated when he set it up and let it run. Maybe he could still have killed Ruin himself back then, but couldn't set up a heir to both Shards.

[Vortaan]

I think Preservation and Ruin went around opposing each other everywhere and eventually made a deal, from what we get in HoA. They set things up so Preservation could sustain a world for a long period of time and Ruin could eventually destroy it because they got sick of stalemating on everything. Of the known Shards, they're the only two that are directly opposed such that anything in alignment with one of their Intents went directly against the other. Honor and Odium are close-ish, because Honor involves subjugating personal emotions to a higher code while Odium is an emotion overriding everything else, but it's entirely possible to hold to a code of honor while hating people who violate it. Devotion and Domination can coexist as opposite ends of the same relationship, and actually when I did a split into pairings I stuck them with other Shards for oppositions.

 

I'm not entirely convinced Leras was more successful in fighting the Intent of Preservation. One important phase of his whole plan was dying and being replaced by someone fresh enough to be unaffected by the Intent, after all. I think he was just early enough in the process to still arrange for his Intent to be violated when he set it up and let it run. Maybe he could still have killed Ruin himself back then, but couldn't set up a heir to both Shards.

 

I agree with the last part. I think that part of the bargain about making humanity was to create something that had direct ties to both Shards. I'm actually curious if someone from, for example Roshar, would have had as easy a time picking up both Shards as Sazed did.

[Oudeis]

I'm not entirely convinced Leras was more successful in fighting the Intent of Preservation. One important phase of his whole plan was dying and being replaced by someone fresh enough to be unaffected by the Intent, after all. I think he was just early enough in the process to still arrange for his Intent to be violated when he set it up and let it run. Maybe he could still have killed Ruin himself back then, but couldn't set up a heir to both Shards.

 

I think it's been confirmed that Intents affect you more the longer you hold them. When Vin was Preservation, she'd barely held it for a few hours, and was surrounded by a world collapsing into Ruin, the polar opposite of her Intent. It was not hard for her to defy Preservation's Intent and use the power to kill, especially considering it was no worse for her Intent than allowing the world to die. Leras had the power who knows how long, and had a fulfilled Intent. He not only had to take actions opposed to his Intent, he had to do it for the underlying purpose of change the world from statis (his ideal situation) to first near destruction and then progress.

 

I agree with the last part. I think that part of the bargain about making humanity was to create something that had direct ties to both Shards. I'm actually curious if someone from, for example Roshar, would have had as easy a time picking up both Shards as Sazed did.

 

I've long wondered that, myself. All humans of Scadrial, whether allomancers, feruchemists, hemalurgists or just Frank down the street have a bit of Ruin and Preservation in them. I wondered if that "primer" were required for a person to take up either (or in this case both) Shards. The only time we've seen two Shards meld is this case. If and I can't stress how big this "if" is but if someone is required to take up multiple Shards in order to meld them... and if you can only take up a Shard if you are somehow "of" it... then we'll either need to find someone from a race of people that predate the Shattering, or there will have to be many generations of worldhopping cross-breeders until we have someone with ancestry from every Shardworld to take up every Shard. Next season on the Bachelor: Cosmere...

[Aether]

I agree with the last part. I think that part of the bargain about making humanity was to create something that had direct ties to both Shards. I'm actually curious if someone from, for example Roshar, would have had as easy a time picking up both Shards as Sazed did.

I do not think so. WoB state that Leras and Ati couldn't have taken up each others powers because they were fully formed by their individual Shards intent at that point. Sazed could pick up and control them both because:

1. He wasn't formed by either intent (irrelevant of being part ruin and preservation), and
2. Because being of one mind, he could pick up both powers and keep them separate in his mind.
3. If it had to be Sazed for some reason, I think it has more to do with him as an individual and his personality than him being from Scadrial.

I do not see any reason why someone outside of Scadrial couldn't have picked up the powers, given they met some other hypothetical criteria than just "being part ruin and preservation". It should also be of note that Brandon has indicated that Hoid has no "interest" in picking up a Shard, sort of implying that he could have had he wanted to. (Though sure, he would be part Adonalsium, so he might meet the suggested prerequisite anyway)

[Swimmingly]

Yolen superdna, anyone?

[name_here]

I think it's been confirmed that Intents affect you more the longer you hold them. When Vin was Preservation, she'd barely held it for a few hours, and was surrounded by a world collapsing into Ruin, the polar opposite of her Intent. It was not hard for her to defy Preservation's Intent and use the power to kill, especially considering it was no worse for her Intent than allowing the world to die. Leras had the power who knows how long, and had a fulfilled Intent. He not only had to take actions opposed to his Intent, he had to do it for the underlying purpose of change the world from statis (his ideal situation) to first near destruction and then progress.

Actually, the very creation of Scadrial inherently implied its eventual near-destruction. Preservation put in more power in the original creation, so Ruin would inevitably be able to overpower and destroy him. Preservation managed to somehow rip away the Atium and then apparently turn most of his Cognitive aspect into a prison for Ruin's, but the situation was still inherently unstable because the prison cyclically weakened, so Ruin could act and Preservation could still barely think. The overall gambit was set up a very long time before the events of the trilogy, when Leras would have been less affected. And I think it's telling that it was an indirect gambit; it could be that Shards have less difficulty arranging for their Intent to be violated than directly violating it. Also, the Mist Spirit stabbed Elend in an apparent attempt to get Vin to use the power of the Well and keep the stalemate, so Leras might have succumbed over the long wait. All the pieces were in place, so there was no reason to delay to the next cycle.

 

As for creating Scadrial in the first place, I expect Preservation's Intent doesn't necessarily oppose creating. Ruin creates stuff in order to have things to destroy, so Preservation might create stuff in order to have things to keep in existence.

[Oudeis]

I think the atium was taken by Rashek, actually. I think that Ruin was able to access its power to manifest as the dark Mist Spirit and stab Fedik, but he couldn't do that even when freed by Vin because the atium was hidden from him.

[Vortaan]

As for creating Scadrial in the first place, I expect Preservation's Intent doesn't necessarily oppose creating. Ruin creates stuff in order to have things to destroy, so Preservation might create stuff in order to have things to keep in existence.

 

It's actually interesting that Ruin had to bend his Intent as well to achieve the bargain. Or did he, really? By creating something, which is definitely not Ruining it, he set in place a long-term plan to ruin everything. Hrm. I wonder how far Ruin could stretch his Intent considering his end game?

 

I think the atium was taken by Rashek, actually. I think that Ruin was able to access its power to manifest as the dark Mist Spirit and stab Fedik, but he couldn't do that even when freed by Vin because the atium was hidden from him.

 

Thought we had WoB that Leras made the Pits, not Rashek. Also, there was no "dark" Mist Spirit. It was all Leras, all the time. He stabbed Fedik for the same reason he stabbed Elend, with... pretty much the same lackluster results.

[Oudeis]

 Also, there was no "dark" Mist Spirit. It was all Leras, all the time. He stabbed Fedik for the same reason he stabbed Elend, with... pretty much the same lackluster results.

 

Do we have WoB on this?

 

Also, I'm not sure if you thought I was being allegorical or metaphorical. I didn't mean dark as in bad. I meant that Alendi very specifically and repeatedly said that the mist spirit of his day was colored black. As far as I've gotten in my re-read of the trilogy, Vin (the only person who has seen it yet) hasn't expressly said that the spirit she sees is white, but she does say that the mists are white and that the spirit is part of the mists, almost impossible to see because it is outlined by the substance of the mist. I feel it's a stretch that she wouldn't be able to see a figure made of black smoke amidst white mist.

 

I admit this is partially tangential to my theory that the classic mist spirit is Ati, not Leras, but I wanted to clarify that point if there was any confusion. There absolutely was a dark mist spirit; when I said "dark" I literally meant "black". I apologize, I hadn't thought about how my meaning could potentially be misunderstood. The last debate I had about the mist spirit I was very express in pointing out the color change, and I forgot to repeat my premise this time. I absolutely admit that Leras could have appeared black a thousand years ago and white now, I just happen to think the one in the past is Ati. There is a lot that would be explained if the black spirit was Ruin that doesn't make any sense if he's Preservation. Fedik was stabbed several days before they found the Well, and was physically well enough to walk about unaided afterwards; hardly the kind of wound that would convince Alendi to take an action he was certain would literally doom the world to heal. Again, Preservation might still be the spirit that stabbed Fedik, but I do not accept that it was for the same reason Preservation stabbed Elend. If you disagree with my reasoning I would very much like to hear your reasoning.

 

One final semi-tangent. I asked Mr. Sanderson, "When the dark mist spirit stabbed Fedik, was that an instance of hemalurgic theft?" His answer was a RAFO and an evil cackle. I do have the physical RAFO card, I didn't know that was a thing...

 

EDIT: Because I realize I made an assumption. It's entirely possible you realized I was talking about colors and are claiming that the mist spirit of the past was not a dark-color. If so, I apologize for assuming your position.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Ookla the Confuzified

[Vortaan]

Do we have WoB on this?

 

Also, I'm not sure if you thought I was being allegorical or metaphorical. I didn't mean dark as in bad. I meant that Alendi very specifically and repeatedly said that the mist spirit of his day was colored black. As far as I've gotten in my re-read of the trilogy, Vin (the only person who has seen it yet) hasn't expressly said that the spirit she sees is white, but she does say that the mists are white and that the spirit is part of the mists, almost impossible to see because it is outlined by the substance of the mist. I feel it's a stretch that she wouldn't be able to see a figure made of black smoke amidst white mist.

 

I admit this is partially tangential to my theory that the classic mist spirit is Ati, not Leras, but I wanted to clarify that point if there was any confusion. There absolutely was a dark mist spirit; when I said "dark" I literally meant "black". I apologize, I hadn't thought about how my meaning could potentially be misunderstood. The last debate I had about the mist spirit I was very express in pointing out the color change, and I forgot to repeat my premise this time. I absolutely admit that Leras could have appeared black a thousand years ago and white now, I just happen to think the one in the past is Ati. There is a lot that would be explained if the black spirit was Ruin that doesn't make any sense if he's Preservation. Fedik was stabbed several days before they found the Well, and was physically well enough to walk about unaided afterwards; hardly the kind of wound that would convince Alendi to take an action he was certain would literally doom the world to heal. Again, Preservation might still be the spirit that stabbed Fedik, but I do not accept that it was for the same reason Preservation stabbed Elend. If you disagree with my reasoning I would very much like to hear your reasoning.

 

One final semi-tangent. I asked Mr. Sanderson, "When the dark mist spirit stabbed Fedik, was that an instance of hemalurgic theft?" His answer was a RAFO and an evil cackle. I do have the physical RAFO card, I didn't know that was a thing...

 

EDIT: Because I realize I made an assumption. It's entirely possible you realized I was talking about colors and are claiming that the mist spirit of the past was not a dark-color. If so, I apologize for assuming your position.

 

We've gone rather far from the topic of this thread, haven't we?

 

I wasn't actually talking about color, although I think that Alendi's perceptions of the mist spirit were certainly influenced by Ruin. This could extend to color, although why Ruin wouldn't pull a similar trick on Vin is up to debate. Maybe because Vin was overall a more fragile personality than Alendi? I also would imagine that Alendi would not use the term mist to describe something he sees that is made of smoke, and he does make the mist analogy as well.

 

However, let's assume that you're right for a minute. It was Ati, not Leras, that stabs Fedik. It seems like a pretty... bad move. Alendi was Ruin's handpicked candidate to free him. Why would he alter that plan? Getting a Hero, with Hemalurgic bronze that lets you influence him/her to the Well, but is not so warped by Hemalurgy that they can't remove the spike, at the interval... that's got to be tough enough. Why start wiping out companions on the way? If you are going to wipe out companions, why not Rashek, the giant glaring threat to your chosen one? 

 

Assuming that it was a Hemalurgic theft, where was the metal? What happened to it afterwards and why isn't it mentioned? A figure of mist dropping a material knife seems like a big enough deal that it would be mentioned by Alendi afterwards. 

 

I understand the thought that there is a discrepancy, but what was left of Leras doesn't seem to have a great grasp of what to do to stop someone from using the Well incorrectly. More to the point I guess, Leras obviously learned from his previous mistake, just not well enough. His plan could have been to wound Fedik and get Alendi to turn back, not the same plan he had with Elend. In fact this could have been the exact reason he stabbed Elend with a mortal wound. This time, the companion is wounded mortally at the moment of crisis. If not for Sazed's advice, I think it actually would have worked. Of course, at that point Odium probably rolls in and starts messing with people, but still... the plan was decent.

[Oudeis]

I wasn't actually talking about color, although I think that Alendi's perceptions of the mist spirit were certainly influenced by Ruin. I also would imagine that Alendi would not use the term mist to describe something he sees that is made of smoke, and he does make the mist analogy as well.

 

However, let's assume that you're right for a minute. It was Ati, not Leras, that stabs Fedik. It seems like a pretty... bad move. Alendi was Ruin's handpicked candidate to free him. Why would he alter that plan? Getting a Hero, with Hemalurgic bronze that lets you influence him/her to the Well, but is not so warped by Hemalurgy that they can't remove the spike, at the interval... that's got to be tough enough. Why start wiping out companions on the way? If you are going to wipe out companions, why not Rashek, the giant glaring threat to your chosen one? 

 

Assuming that it was a Hemalurgic theft, where was the metal? What happened to it afterwards and why isn't it mentioned? A figure of mist dropping a material knife seems like a big enough deal that it would be mentioned by Alendi afterwards.

 

Do we have any examples of Ruin changing someone's perception like that? He changes the information in metalminds, written words, and whispers into your mind. I don't think he's ever cast this kind of "illusion." And to what purpose? Which is a dumb question for me to ask, because you've asked me "to what purpose" and I'm about to explain to you how it's reasonable that we don't know. Oh, and Alendi DOES describe the spirit as smoke first. Then fog. Then mist. And don't forget, there is dark smoke at the Well which we know is Ruin. Just sayin'.

 

Rashek is the giant, glaring threat in hindsight. At the time, Alendi himself thought he wasn't a threat, just an annoying racist packman. We know he was sent to kill Alendi if he couldn't lead him astray, but Kwaan knew to write things in metal to avoid "someone"'s attention. It's entirely plausible that, trapped as he was, Ruin did not know Kwaan's plan. As for why the metal wasn't mentioned afterwards, I have a simple answer. This is Alendi's logbook, not the CSI evidence log. He was writing for his own sake. It's mentioned time after time in the first book that a ton of crucial details are left out, a lot of questions are raised and never answered. These events happened a thousand years ago, recorded by a man in a book he didn't expect anyone to read, about his own philosophical conundra, in a dead language. If something normal happened, like the spirit grabbed an eating knife, or perhaps Fedik carried a dagger and the spirit grabbed that and used it, then dropped it, why would Alendi mention it? It's not germane to the emotional turmoil he's feeling which, as Vin says frequently, is most of what he talks about.

 

I do, however, have my own theory. Alendi was questioning. He was wondering if he was right. He was doubting, possibly because of Rashek, his place as the Hero. Ruin couldn't allow him to pull a Kwaan and change his mind. We know that Fedik and Alendi were alone; only they were witness to the stabbing. If Fedik was the theft, that leaves one person around to be spiked... Very soon thereafter, Alendi writes with new resolve. In the passage Vin reads in the second book, the one that convinces her to decide she's not crazy, Alendi suddenly stops being wishy-washy and re-accepts his destiny as the Hero. A week out he'd been wavering; days later he's resolute. Exactly what Ruin wants. It also answers why he didn't mention where the knife went; Spook in the third book makes a point of noting that he'd somehow managed to forget an enormous piece of metal inside his own shoulder. Yes, it is unfortunate that it meant Alendi would have one more spike to remove before entering the Well and releasing Ruin, but as we saw with Vin it was instinctive. It was a gamble, but at that point so was waiting around to see if Alendi would give up his quest or figure out Ruin's plan. Ati wasn't left, at that point, with any 'safe' options.

 

Kay, it's Thanksgiving and I have to get to the Turkey bowl. I've got more to say and quotes to post. I'll do so tomorrow.

[Oudeis]

Sorry for the double-post... I promised quotes, and no one has said anything since. In case anyone saw my post and is waiting for the quotes, I want it to pop up as "new post" for them.

 

Here is the link to the (rather short) previous debate, with my quotes.

 

A few thoughts...

 

We also know Fedik was messing with Ruin's Shardpool. That may have provoked a reply from Ruin. If his mind were trapped, maybe it was an ill-advised action.

 

Also, as to Ruin's knife. We know that the white mist can fuel Allomancy without the need for metal. Mayhaps the black mist can commit hemalurgic theft without the need for metal? Perhaps when "stabbed" with the mist, leaving the person alive is the natural state; perhaps it's the exact thing needed for non-fatal hemalurgic theft.

 

And lastly... my concession speech. I asked if Fedik's stabbing were an example of hemalurgic theft and I got RAFO'd. According to my RAFO card, one reason people get RAFO'd is "it might mean the answer would make people focus on the wrong things". According to an annotation in Well of Ascension (I think chapter 40, definitely somewhere near there) people keep asking Brandon to write the prequel, to tell us more about Alendi's quest, and he's really sick of people asking that and hates prequels as a whole, and if he were to write a prequel it would be about Kelsier's training under Gemmel.

 

So, those things together make it sound like, first of all, we're never gonna get told this, and second of all I was at least partially supporting my argument with the RAFO rather than "no" to my question, and it looks like the RAFO very likely meant something else. So... I'll be over here in my corner. With my poor, dead little theory. Crying myself to sleep...

[Windrunner]

We may get an answer one day. Brandon's still obfuscating some information about the Lord Ruler for unknown reasons. He won't tell us why he tried to end the Final Empire or who Lutha was.

[Shardlet]

I didn't notice anyone making these two points about the Alendi mist spirit and the Vin mist spirit.  1) Vin and Elend both, having read Alendi's logbook make the assumption/connection that the spirit they are seeing is the same as the one Alendi saw.  And, 2) Could not have Ruin changed the logbook to say that the spirit Alendi saw was black manipulate Vin and Elend into not trusting the mist spirit?

Edited November 30, 2013 by Ookla the Occulus

[Oudeis]

I thought about Ruin changing the words in the logbook to make the spirit black. Why? That would make the previous spirit seem different from the current one. If Ruin were trying to get Vin and Elend to not trust Preservation, why not make him out to be evil and also to look more like the current Mist Spirit? Why deliberately change the wording to make the past spirit distinct, rather than similar?

Sidenote... do we know which ear vin wears her earring in? When she touched the white Mist Spirit, she got a burning pain in her left ear. I'd like to know if it was due to her healurgic spike reacting poorly to Preservation.

[Aether]

We may get an answer one day. Brandon's still obfuscating some information about the Lord Ruler for unknown reasons. He won't tell us why he tried to end the Final Empire or who Lutha was.

Who's Lutha?

 

Sidenote... do we know which ear vin wears her earring in? When she touched the white Mist Spirit, she got a burning pain in her left ear. I'd like to know if it was due to her healurgic spike reacting poorly to Preservation.

Sound like a reasonable conjecture, even though I always assumed it was her right ear, for some reason.

[WeiryWriter]

Who's Lutha?

 

We don't really know.  We think he/she is the person the Lord Ruler named Luthadel after.  Elendel is named after Elend, so it would follow Luthadel was named after "Lutha" (or Luthad, but most people go with Lutha).

[Aether]

Elendel was named after Elend to honour his memory. I think you could easily look at it the other way around and claim that they just used the "-del" or "-el" suffix to copy the old standard. Of course, Luthadel might have been named for someone, but it could just as easily just be a name, or have been named after something rather than someone.

 

But it would be interesting to ask Brandon about this.

[Oudeis]

My friend's gut tells him that Lutha was Rashek's father. Personally, I suspect that it was Rashek's love, who was a feruchemist, and therefore had to be turned into a mistwraith.

[Aether]

If a lover or any of his family was alive at this point, it seems reasonable that he would have given them the same choice that he gave his companions and Kwaan (id est becoming Kandra as an alternative to Mistwraith or dying).

 

That isn't to say he might not have named Luthadel after any of them.

[Oudeis]

 

id est

 

I was taught that the expression was "ipsum est". My latin teacher was a FILTHY LIAR.

[Swimmingly]

My friend's gut tells him that Lutha was Rashek's father. Personally, I suspect that it was Rashek's love, who was a feruchemist, and therefore had to be turned into a mistwraith.

Who refused to go along with his plans for world domination, and in fact actively rebelled, forcing him to dispose of her, but naming his new city in her memory? That would be a dramatically appropriate plot. The lover bit can be in fact be replaced with any close relationship and still work. Alternately, Luthad was Rashek's last name or something mundane like that, and Brandon is stringing us along with a red herring-on-a-stick.

[Aether]

Brandon does love his red-herrings.