Why are there Lighteyes and Darkeyes? [Mistborn spoilers]

[sprint]

Why do so many lighteyes exist in Roshar?

 

All the 'nobles' in the books are ennobled by the fact that they have light eyes.

 

Moash's eyes start to change when he bonds his shard blade - Adolin comments it will take a week or so for them to change as he bonds the blade.

 

SA3 spoilers:

However the excerpt from book 3 that covers Kaladin's return to Hearthstone states that his eyes turn back from glassy blue to dark again a few hours after he dismisses Syl as a shardblade. It further states that they turn light again if he summons Syl.

 

Now Kaladin is a radiant (lvl.3) and his eyes still fade from light to dark.

 

Therefore how is it that a load of rosharans are lighteyed?  It might make a little sense for those who hold a shard blade - although we know that this isn't a true nahel bond as the spren inhabiting the blades are dead. But,how would it explain light eyes amongst the wider (non-shard bearing) population?

 

I concede that there could be more going on with the eyes than we have been informed yet.

Any theories elsewhere or thoughts?

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moogle
Please tag SA3 spoilers!

[natc]

Because people are . . . born that way?

We have people with hair that is literal gold in coloring and things like herdazians, and people having lighter eyes at birth somehow seems an alien concept?

In all seriousness surgebinders' eyes could very well be due to some effect stormlight has on the spiritweb, which would potentially be hereditary. You can claim that change in color isn't permanent and all, but technically neither are inquisitor spikes.

Or descendants of shardbearers. Moash's eyes seem to be at a normal level of light, while Kaladin is apparently lighter than any king when he changes, and the one Radiant from the Feverstone Keep vision had eyes that apparently might as well be white with slight tint. We don't know if the lightening from dead blades is temporary.

Edited September 25, 2015 by natc

[Oudeis he/him]

Hey, if you're going to discuss pre-release chapters, put them behind a spoiler cut. If you do not know how to make a spoiler cut, someone can explain it to you better than I, but here's a basic idea

 

What Is Being Spoiled (In this case, SA3)

{spoiler}Thing people might not want to read.{/spoiler}

 

However you use [ instead of {, so basically just don't apply the shift key at all for the code. Hope that makes sense.

[Moogle]

Mistborn spoilers:

In Mistborn, Inquisitors have their sDNA altered by spikes to give them Allomancy. By WoB, this can pass on to their children. Having light-colored eyes is almost certainly a Spiritual change in the same vein. Therefore, we should expect the children of Radiants or those bonded to Shardblades to have light-colored eyes.

[Shadowspren he/him]

Because people are . . . born that way?

We have people with hair that is literal gold in coloring and things like herdazians, and people having lighter eyes at birth somehow seems an alien concept?

In all seriousness surgebinders' eyes could very well be due to some effect stormlight has on the spiritweb, which would potentially be hereditary. You can claim that change in color isn't permanent and all, but technically neither are inquisitor spikes.

 

Well there is also interbreeding between races and countries, so all the lighteyes in Alethkar are necessarily all 100% Alethi blooded. Adolin has mixed blood, Shallan does too ( both are shown by their hair). Rock has light eyes doesn't he? but they don't measure status by eye colour in the mountains *airsick lowlanders*

 So it isn't that far-fetched to think that over the hundreds, even thousands of years of Rosharian history the interbreeding has influenced the number of Lighteyes. However, it seems like darkeyes don't have the money or resources or even legal right to travel abroad and therefore would limit darkeyes from breeding abroad much. And most people marry based on eye colour, so the light eyes are kept in the family for the most part.

[natc]

Not sure why you're quoting that, because nothing either of us said actually relates to each other directly.

[sprint]

Apologies for the spoilers. I'd assumed anyone using the forum would have read all material available whilst waiting for book 3!
Back to the eyes -
@ moogle - Mistborn spoilers:

So the child of an inquisitor would be born with nails for eyes???
Do these nails grow with the inquisitor.
With some of the nails protruding through the back of the skull that would be somewhat uncomfortable for the mother...
I mean the spikes in the inquisitor are haemalugically charged but I don't see how it's a heritable trait.
Allomancy and ferruchemy is heritable but it seems to weaken down the generations demonstrated by the fact that by the time of wax and Wayne only ferrings, mistings and twinborns exist.

As surgebinding is granted by the nahel bond and isn't heritable why would the lighteyes granted by the bond be?

SA3 spoilers:

Even if lighteyes were heritable and a sign of ancestral investiture they fade in the surgebinder when not holding their shardblabe so why would they be present in their descendants?

I always assumed that light eyes were different from green / blue eyes as opposed to say brown.

Following the recreance the radiants who gave up their shards would be pretty obvious target to the rest of humanity who felt they'd been betrayed if they were still lighteyes...

I've typed this on my phone so apologies for spelling autocorrect has a habit of not recognising cosmere terminology.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moogle
Please mark your spoilers.

[Yata he/him]

Apologies for the spoilers. I'd assumed anyone using the forum would have read all material available whilst waiting for book 3!

Back to the eyes -

@ moogle - Mistborn spoilers:

So the child of an inquisitor would be born with nails for eyes???

Do these nails grow with the inquisitor.

With some of the nails protruding through the back of the skull that would be somewhat uncomfortable for the mother...

I mean the spikes in the inquisitor are haemalugically charged but I don't see how it's a heritable trait.

Allomancy and ferruchemy is heritable but it seems to weaken down the generations demonstrated by the fact that by the time of wax and Wayne only ferrings, mistings and twinborns exist.

SA3 spoilers:

As surgebinding is granted by the nahel bond and isn't heritable why would the lighteyes granted by the bond be?

Even if lighteyes were heritable and a sign of ancestral investiture they fade in the surgebinder when not holding their shardblabe so why would they be present in their descendants?

I always assumed that light eyes were different from green / blue eyes as opposed to say brown.

Following the recreance the radiants who gave up their shards would be pretty obvious target to the rest of humanity who felt they'd been betrayed if they were still lighteyes...

I've typed this on my phone so apologies for spelling autocorrect has a habit of not recognising cosmere terminology.

Mistborn spoilers:

The Hemalurgy add "pieces" to your sDNA. It's like a Magic Genetic Enginering.

The Child of an Inquisitor (or any with a Spike) could inherit Allomancy/Feruchemy like if the parent was an Allomancer/Feruchemist. But it's is very rare compared to the normal sDNA trasmission.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moogle
Please mark your spoilers.

[sprint]

Can you link to the WoB on sDNA. I'd be interested to read them.

When spook and vin pull out their spikes they lose the added abilities that the spikes granted. sDNA may have been altered but they don't retain the investiture granted by the spikes.
I know the system of haemulurgy and surgebinding aren't the same but there is some comparison.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moogle

[Yata he/him]

Can you link to the WoB on sDNA. I'd be interested to read them.

When spook and vin pull out their spikes they lose the added abilities that the spikes granted. sDNA may have been altered but they don't retain the investiture granted by the spikes.

I know the system of haemulurgy and surgebinding aren't the same but there is some comparison.

Mistborn spoilers:

But while they had the Spike inside, they had an alterated SDNA.

 

You ask the WoB, and WoB you had XD :

 

 

ZAS678 (REDDIT.COM)

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moogle

[War_Breaker he/him]

I'm currently working my way through WoR again (it must be around 10 times now) and thought about this the other day - What if it is a similar phenomenon to the Royal Locks on Nalthis?

[DreamEternal]

Rock has light eyes doesn't he? but they don't measure status by eye colour in the mountains *airsick lowlanders*.

No, you got it wrong. The Alethi would never accept a lighteyed slave. Rock is a darkeyed relative to a most likely darkeyed lord of the peaks.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

It's pretty simple.

Descendants of Radiants and Shardbearers inherited light eyes from them. All there is to it.

Once you gain lighteyes from a shardblade, it's in your DNA. Fairly certain that it's permanent and would continue after you sever the bond, but I will have to check on it.

(Also, I'm pretty sure that if you don't own a blade and aren't descended from a Shardbearer, you are born with darkeyes. Just the way it works on Roshar.)

Edited September 25, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[Yata he/him]

I always thought that there isn't a  (genetic) correlation about the current lighteyes and the KR. Just the memories of the Radiant power&eyes and the legacy of this correlation.

 

But of course I could be wrong

[Moogle]

This is just a friendly reminder to please mark your SA3 and Mistborn spoilers. (I added Mistborn spoiler warnings to the title of the thread so you shouldn't have to do Mistborn more, but in the future please keep a close eye on it.)

 

---

@sprint: Yata covered about everything I was going to say, but there's this WoB too:

(note: paraphrased)
Q: Would Inqusitors’s kids have allomancy?
A: Not usually. It happens sometimes, but not usually. He then mentioned a little about sDNA, but that it’s not inherited as much as it is when it’s natural.
(source)

 

Once you gain lighteyes from a shardblade, it's in your DNA. Fairly certain that it's permanent and would continue after you sever the bond, but I will have to check on it.

 

I doubt this is the case. Your children would keep their eyes probably, but you'd likely lose yours. It's like how Szeth's eyes change while he has his Blade out and go back to normal when he stops touching it.

 

---

 

Another point to be made: there are not ten different eye colors. If indeed Radiants' descendants inherit their eye color, we wouldn't expect this. So this a point against, but it could just easily be that eye color sDNA genes are recessive and easily overriden/red eyed people are killed.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Moogle

[DreamEternal]

I always thought that there isn't a (genetic) correlation about the current lighteyes and the KR. Just the memories of the Radiant power&eyes and the legacy of this correlation.

But of course I could be wrong

Yeah, we don't even know if Kaladin's eyes will ever become permanently light. However, dead shardblades are a different matter, since what we have seen with Moash suggests they change your eye color permanently. And we know those who got shardblades were those willing to murder for them. It isn't unfair to assume many of Roshar's current lighteyed ruling houses are descended from those shardbearers who became warlords and went on a conquering spree.

This makes me curious thought: how old is the Kholin House? Is Kholinar named after them, or did their house take that name to link them to the Dawncity they rule, former capital of Alethela? For how long did the city have that name?

[Cemci she/her]

We're not given an extensive amount of information about how many lighteyes exist in Roshar, relative to darkeyes.

 

It's entirely possible by the way that lighteyes in Roshar aren't descended from people who took a dead Shardblade, but who are descended from people who just happened to have light eyes, essentially what Yata said.

 

Over the years, it's possible that society, which in Nohadon's time put the Radiants at the very top, remembered that the leaders of civilisation had very bright eyes, and therefore established (in the absence of the Radiants) the hierarchy that continued to put people with genetically light eyes at the top.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Actually we do have WoB on the ratio:

 

 

[Reddit]

 

AndyC50

 

I'm wondering what is the ratio between dark eyes and light eyes in the country where Kaladin is from

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

Weighted toward darkeyes, though the lighteye/darkeye disparity is not nearly as great as the noble/peasant disparity was in our world.

 

And here's another WoB on where the lighteye genes are coming from:

 

 

[Signing Line - 02:21:15]

Questioner

My question has to do with the color of Shallan's eyes currently, because we've noticed over the books that Kaladin's eyes, as he's continued to use his Surge, changed to lighter and lighter blue. Whereas one could argue that Shallan is farther in her Ideals than Kaladin is, yet her eyes have not changed at all.

Brandon Sanderson

Right, 'cause they were already light.

Questioner

'Cause they were already light? So it only affects lightness or darkness in the eyes, not necessarily any other color?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not like it is-- It's not like it's saying "Light minus 50%".

Questioner

It's not like Honor is blue and--

Brandon Sanderson

No. It is not. It is just kind of the way that the changes the Stormlight is making the body and certain people are already descended from people who had repeated, over time, changes by the body which stopped physically... That's not to say that all lighteyes that's where they came from. There are some that are natural mutations.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

SA3 spoilers

I think the reason that Kaladin's eyes don't stay light is the same reason that his slave brand doesn't heal/can't get a cover-up tattoo. I remember reading about the way that Stormlight heals is based on your Cognitive self(i.e. how you see yourself). Kaladin didn't heal his scars because he saw those scars as part of himself. He doesn't keep the light eyes because he never wanted to become a lighteyes.  

Does that make any sense?

Edited September 28, 2015 by Moogle
Please mark your SA3 spoilers.

[Yata he/him]

SA3 spoilers:

I think the reason that Kaladin's eyes don't stay light is the same reason that his slave brand doesn't heal/can't get a cover-up tattoo. I remember reading about the way that Stormlight heals is based on your Cognitive self(i.e. how you see yourself). Kaladin didn't heal his scars because he saw those scars as part of himself. He doesn't keep the light eyes because he never wanted to become a lighteyes.  

Does that make any sense?

mmm I don't think.
This could be true if Kal's eyes darken when he absorbs the Stormlight and the "healing" fix him to his Cognitive self.

 

But probably the "Lighteyes" of a Surgebinder is a temporary phenomenon.

We saw this phenomenon in the Honorblade's Bond with Szeth.

 

Probably the Deadspren's bond is a special case or something similar.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Moogle
Please mark your SA3 spoilers!

[sprint]

SA3 spoilers:

@12th - It might 'make sense' but I don't buy agree with it.

Untli we have evidence to the contrary I'm inclined to believe that the eye lightening is a temporary result of the starlight absorbed, whether this changes as a knight radiant moves higher up the scale... (i don't recall Kaladin's eyes changing at lvl.1 or lvl.2).

 

The WoB quotes above indicate that most (not all) lighteyes are descendants of those who had "repeated, over time, exposure".

 

Though from the rather garbled quoted it is difficult what the exposure was to...  I assume Stormlight / other investiture? Do any of the Worldhoppers or Heralds have lighteyes that we know of?

Edited September 28, 2015 by Moogle
Please mark SA3 spoilers.

[Moogle]

This is a friendly reminder to please mark SA3 spoilers. Some people are trying to avoid being spoiled before the book comes out. It is inconsiderate to spoil them.

[Cemci she/her]

I found an epigraph in WoK Part 2, Chapter 46 "Child of Tanavast". 

 

Though I was due for dinner in Veden City that night, I insisted upon visiting Kholinar to speak with Tivbet. The tariffs through Urithiru were growing quire unreasonable. By then, the so-called Radiants had already begun to show their true nature.

 

Regarding the question for how long Kholinar has been called Kholinar, this should give some indication: since the time of the Radiants at least. Either the Kholin house has been around for that long, which we would need some family history of the Kholins to verify, or the Kholins took on the name 'Kholin' because they ruled Kholinar. At that point, was Alethkar still known as Alethela? When Dalinar has the vision with Nohadon where he sees the destruction of Kholinar, that city looks different to what Dalinar is used to, so where can that vision be placed in the timeline, at what point did the Kholins start ruling Kholinar and for how long did the Radiants and Surgebinders help humanity before, as the epigraph suggests, 'show their true nature'?

[DreamEternal]

The worst oart is that this isn't the first time Alethkar was broken and reunited. The Sunmaker did it before, and we know the descendants if his dinasty are the Oldbloods, but we have no idea if he descended from Alethela's ancient rulers or not.