Guest Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 We have never seem how a Radiant who only said the first oath reacts to a deadblade, have we? Dalinar said both oaths in a row, so he doens't count. I suppose there could be something between "mild discomfort" and "wails of the damned", like a sudden pain or numbness in the arm. I do agree, we can't know which oath triggered the screams: the first or the second. I do agree Renarin may have had said the first oath, however I do not think he heard the scream until chapter 25.
Ari he/him Posted October 4, 2015 Posted October 4, 2015 We have never seem how a Radiant who only said the first oath reacts to a deadblade, have we? Dalinar said both oaths in a row, so he doens't count. I suppose there could be something between "mild discomfort" and "wails of the damned", like a sudden pain or numbness in the arm. We've never actually seen a Radiant swear the first oath "on camera", iirc. I would say it's highly significant that Dalinar swears the second oath and then discards his new Blade. There may be something that goes on with the First Oath that Brandon's deliberately not shown us yet, or there could be a reason that the second oath is more siginificant. I feel like there's something around that we're not getting, but that we maybe don't have the clues to put it all together.
Guest Posted October 4, 2015 Posted October 4, 2015 We've never actually seen a Radiant swear the first oath "on camera", iirc. I would say it's highly significant that Dalinar swears the second oath and then discards his new Blade. There may be something that goes on with the First Oath that Brandon's deliberately not shown us yet, or there could be a reason that the second oath is more siginificant. I feel like there's something around that we're not getting, but that we maybe don't have the clues to put it all together. Kaladin swore the first oath "on camera". The "Dalinar experiment" enabled us to figure out a proto-Radiant needs to have said oaths to hear the screams, but it did not allowed us to conclude if it were the first or the second that triggered them. It thus means Renarin could have swear his second oath as early as chapter 25 or as late as chapter 89, but I am rather convinced he swore it. Though, if you ask me, I have come to believe his order do not progress via oaths. I suspect their progression have something to do with the visions, which would imply he changed level after the Oathgate incident. As for the visions, he had them before he was handed his new Blade, but his reaction upon receiving did not strike me as powerful enough for him to hear the screams. It seems more of a discomfort akin to what Dalinar experimented when he bonded his last Blade. All in all, we don't have enough clues to piece out how advanced Renarin is. However, we have enough clues to suspect he is more advanced than we were led to believe. He is likely a level 2, maybe a level 3.
Ari he/him Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Kaladin swore the first oath "on camera". The "Dalinar experiment" enabled us to figure out a proto-Radiant needs to have said oaths to hear the screams, but it did not allowed us to conclude if it were the first or the second that triggered them. It thus means Renarin could have swear his second oath as early as chapter 25 or as late as chapter 89, but I am rather convinced he swore it. Though, if you ask me, I have come to believe his order do not progress via oaths. I suspect their progression have something to do with the visions, which would imply he changed level after the Oathgate incident. As for the visions, he had them before he was handed his new Blade, but his reaction upon receiving did not strike me as powerful enough for him to hear the screams. It seems more of a discomfort akin to what Dalinar experimented when he bonded his last Blade. All in all, we don't have enough clues to piece out how advanced Renarin is. However, we have enough clues to suspect he is more advanced than we were led to believe. He is likely a level 2, maybe a level 3. Does he? I just reread WoK recently, and I noticed that he mulls over parts of the first oath on camera, but I don't recall him actually saying "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." at any stage. What events should I be looking for to make sure we're talking about the same scene? (I have an ebook available atm, not a paperback or hardback) If we're correct that the second oath is what makes you initially unable to use a Shardblade, then Renarin has definitely sworn the second oath during WoR. It's possible he's reached subsequent oaths soon after, before WoR ends, although I suspect we may begin to see Radiant shardplate at certain levels, which Renarin (to our knowledge) doesn't have, so I'd guess he's not further along than Kaladin, although he may have caught up to him. Edited October 7, 2015 by Ari
Guest Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Does he? I just reread WoK recently, and I noticed that he mulls over parts of the first oath on camera, but I don't recall him actually saying "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." at any stage. What events should I be looking for to make sure we're talking about the same scene? (I have an ebook available atm, not a paperback or hardback) If we're correct that the second oath is what makes you initially unable to use a Shardblade, then Renarin has definitely sworn the second oath during WoR. It's possible he's reached subsequent oaths soon, although I suspect we may begin to see Radiant shardplate at certain levels, which Renarin (to our knowledge) doesn't have. Well, I hope I was not wrong... Didn't he say it right after being with Teft? Or perhaps after walking back from his suicide attempt? At this point in time, I do not believe we have enough clues to conclude which oath triggered the screaming Blade reaction. It could be the first one or the second one. As for Shardplate, Shallan is a level 4 Radiant and still no sign of a one. We don't know either: 1) What they are, 2) How do Radiants get access to them the first time. It could be it isn't tied to the number of oaths or perhaps you need to be a complete Radiant. We are lacking clues here, but my gut feeling is Renarin is, at the very least, a level 2 Radiant, potentially a level 3, but this is less probable.
Rockbud he/him Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 Just tacking this on: early-mid WoK its noted Renarin takes a while to reply in conversation and it makes people feel uneasy. What if this delay is due to him considering the possible futures based on his possible replies? Will find quote later if this causes confusion 1
DreamEternal Posted October 7, 2015 Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Just tacking this on: early-mid WoK its noted Renarin takes a while to reply in conversation and it makes people feel uneasy. What if this delay is due to him considering the possible futures based on his possible replies? Will find quote later if this causes confusion I don't think so. It is most likely just part of his personality, probably related to his light autism. We are very bad at reading people, so we either are very careful, try to explain ourselves after every second word or stop caring about being seem as obnoxous(sp? That word is weird).. Edited October 9, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 2
Ari he/him Posted October 8, 2015 Posted October 8, 2015 Well, I hope I was not wrong... Didn't he say it right after being with Teft? Or perhaps after walking back from his suicide attempt? At this point in time, I do not believe we have enough clues to conclude which oath triggered the screaming Blade reaction. It could be the first one or the second one. As for Shardplate, Shallan is a level 4 Radiant and still no sign of a one. We don't know either: 1) What they are, 2) How do Radiants get access to them the first time. It could be it isn't tied to the number of oaths or perhaps you need to be a complete Radiant. We are lacking clues here, but my gut feeling is Renarin is, at the very least, a level 2 Radiant, potentially a level 3, but this is less probable. Thanks for being a good sport about that, I'll start checking with you once I've finished Shadows of Self!
Guest Posted October 9, 2015 Posted October 9, 2015 Thanks for being a good sport about that, I'll start checking with you once I've finished Shadows of Self! Bah nobody can have quoted the book in its entirety. We all make mistakes in our recollection. I've looked for the passage, but I haven't find it yet.
FeatherWriter she/her Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 Bah nobody can have quoted the book in its entirety. We all make mistakes in our recollection. I've looked for the passage, but I haven't find it yet. We don't see Kaladin directly say the First Oath as an event, though it's possible that one of his times mulling it over counts for this? Hard to say. We ought to ask Brandon when Kaladin says the First Oath. A few comments: It is confirmed that Renarin is the one scratching the numbers, not Dalinar. Dalinar simply thinks it is himself, since he doesn't remember anything and has been known to do weird things. Renarin, very afraid that people will find out that people will hate him for seeing the future, is more than willing to let people think it's Dalinar for as long as possible. Now, I'm about to go post a theory post about this, but while we know Renarin sees the visions, it should be noted that we don't know that those visions are a part of his Surgebinding. There's the interesting speculation. C: 1
Guest Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 We don't see Kaladin directly say the First Oath as an event, though it's possible that one of his times mulling it over counts for this? Hard to say. We ought to ask Brandon when Kaladin says the First Oath. A few comments: It is confirmed that Renarin is the one scratching the numbers, not Dalinar. Dalinar simply thinks it is himself, since he doesn't remember anything and has been known to do weird things. Renarin, very afraid that people will find out that people will hate him for seeing the future, is more than willing to let people think it's Dalinar for as long as possible. Now, I'm about to go post a theory post about this, but while we know Renarin sees the visions, it should be noted that we don't know that those visions are a part of his Surgebinding. There's the interesting speculation. C: Didn't he swear the oath sometimes right after Teft told him what to say? My recollection is dizzy and I have tried to look for it, but failed. I lack the time to browse through the book thoroughly enough. I seem to recall he stated it "in book", but honestly, I would not be surprised to be wrong about it. We I do rereads, I tend to only reread the parts I liked the most, mainly every single Adolin's POV Do we know out of any doubt Renarin was the one scratching the numbers? I agree we are reasonably sure it was him, but has it been confirmed by Brandon? Hmmm.... Part of me thinks the visions are his oaths, part of me believes he is being used and not really a Radiant, part of me believes he is a Radiant, but the visions are not linked to his surges... I have honestly no idea, but it looks like he may be getting a Rhysadium! That's fun. Renarin with one and Adolin without one. I like that.
DreamEternal Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 I have honestly no idea, but it looks like he may be getting a Rhysadium! That's fun. Renarin with one and Adolin without one. I like that. Maxal, why do you hate so much the one you love so much? Just kidding.
Guest Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 Maxal, why do you hate so much the one you love so much? Just kidding. I LOVE Adolin , but it does not mean I don't root for him to suffer for a while... I think it will be an interesting growth moment for him to watch his younger brother succeed where he failed. Basically, I want character development for him and right this development passes with him going in the downward spiral, so yes I am all for it The fact he is about to lose it all is what makes him so interesting. His character is not as enthralling if it remains static. I love him for his potential and for the fact he seems to deal with events in a similar way as I personally do which makes it easier for me to emphasize with him. Other characters, I just want to slam their heads into the wall, but Adolin, I just get it. I also think Renarin is set to go onto an upward spiral. The last thing I want to read is him going further down mainly because I don't think it is possible and secondly because I don't think it is interesting. I basically want him to find his strength (not soldering) and to use it, so I support any story line that provides this. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support Renarin to get his own Rhysadium (providing Adolin finds another, a few more books down the road )
FeatherWriter she/her Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 “I don’t know what the point is,” Teft grumbled. “But it seems pathetic to give up. We should keep fighting. Right until those arrows take us. You know, ‘journey before destination.’” “What does that mean?” “I don’t know,” Teft said, looking down quickly. “Just something I heard once.” “It’s something the Lost Radiants used to say,” Sigzil said, walking past. Kaladin glanced to the side. The soft-spoken Azish man set a shield on a pile. He looked up, brown skin dark in the torchlight. “It was their motto. Part of it, at least. ‘Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.’” “Lost Radiants?” Skar said, carrying an armful of boots. “Who’s bringing them up?” “Teft did,” Moash said. -- WoK Ch. 43: The Wretch This is the first time Kaladin hears the Ideal in canon, and it's Sigzil that says it in its entirety, not Teft. Kaladin, it should be noted, does not repeat it here. Later in the chapter, we see Kaladin contemplating it, but not saying it. Perhaps the thought is enough? Sigzil’s words echoed in his head. Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination. Kaladin looked up at the crack of sky. Like a faraway river of pure, blue water. Life before death. What did the saying mean? That men should seek life before seeking death? That was obvious. Or did it mean something else? That life came before death? Again, obvious. And yet the simple words spoke to him. Death comes, they whispered. Death comes to all. But life comes first. Cherish it. Death is the destination. But the journey, that is life. That is what matters. A cold wind blew through the corridor of stone, washing over him, bringing crisp, fresh scents and blowing away the stink of rotting corpses. Nobody cared for the bridgemen. Nobody cared for those at the bottom, with the darkest eyes. And yet, that wind seemed to whisper to him over and over. Life before death. Life before death. Live before you die. (...) The wretch seemed to be standing before him. He meant release. Apathy. Did Kaladin really want to go back to that? It was a false refuge. Being that man hadn’t protected him. It had only led him deeper and deeper until taking his own life had seemed the better way. Life before death. -- WoK Ch. 43: The Wretch That said... after I went back and searched. We do actually see Kaladin say the Ideal in its entirety a few chapters later. I'd guess that counts as his stating the first Ideal. He took the pouch of spheres in his hand and tried to think the same way he had earlier, when he’d drawn in the Stormlight. This is our last chance. “Life before death,” he whispered. “Strength before weakness. Journey before destination.” The First Ideal of the Knights Radiant. He breathed in deeply, and a thick jolt of power shot up his arm. His muscles burned with energy, with the desire to move. The tempest spread within, pushing at his skin, causing his blood to pump in a powerful rhythm. He opened his eyes. Glowing smoke rose around him. He was able to contain much of the Light, holding it in by holding his breath. -- WoK Ch. 59: An Honor As for if Renarin has visions, it seems obvious to me, but if that's not proof enough, Brandon has answered questions which assume this to be true. My questions, actually. More on that here. I told y'all I was posting a theory, didn't I? Feather: Are Renarin's visions compulsive/involuntary? Brandon: There is an element of that to them, yes. Feather: Are Renarin's visions Surgebinding? Brandon: *evil laughter* RAFO! 1
Guest Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 Ah well that's what I recall! Seems I was not looking into the right chapter... So he does say it. I have to back reading chapter 59. Anyway, it still does not tell us which oath triggers the Blade screaming event. I like the Renarin theory. I was never entirely convinced the visions were tied to his surges, though I still think they may have something to do with his oaths.
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 This is the first time Kaladin hears the Ideal in canon, and it's Sigzil that says it in its entirety, not Teft. Kaladin, it should be noted, does not repeat it here. Later in the chapter, we see Kaladin contemplating it, but not saying it. Perhaps the thought is enough? That said... after I went back and searched. We do actually see Kaladin say the Ideal in its entirety a few chapters later. I'd guess that counts as his stating the first Ideal. As for if Renarin has visions, it seems obvious to me, but if that's not proof enough, Brandon has answered questions which assume this to be true. My questions, actually. More on that here. I told y'all I was posting a theory, didn't I? There are a few WoBs, i think from the AMA, about what if someone who was born mute/insertotherconditionpreventingspeechhere became a proto-radiant and if you had to speak the Oaths only to convey the meaning but apparently it can be done without verbally doing so. Maxal, I seem to recall you using said WoBs in regards to another topic but I could be wrong or misremembering.
Guest Posted October 11, 2015 Posted October 11, 2015 There are a few WoBs, i think from the AMA, about what if someone who was born mute/insertotherconditionpreventingspeechhere became a proto-radiant and if you had to speak the Oaths only to convey the meaning but apparently it can be done without verbally doing so. Maxal, I seem to recall you using said WoBs in regards to another topic but I could be wrong or misremembering. Yeah there's a WoB stating that. It appears you don't actually have to say the words out loud, though the exact mechanism is not clear. Depending on whom you ask, you'll get a different answer.
Charononus Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 The box is nothing more than stim, a useless object he manipulates to sooth himself. It is a thing with autism, apparently. I am not an expert, but I have read it has been added to the story based on the recommendation of a true autism individual. There is nothing more to it. As for the numbers on the wall, it has been assumed it was him based on the fact he writes some at the end of WoR. Whereas I do agree it was, in all likelihood him, we cannot confirm without the inch of a doubt, yet. There is still a possibility, albeit extremely small, it was not him. That being he did not need to sedate Dalinar, simply to hide himself with Illumination, which he likely did a few times. It was also night, so it is probable Dalinar was sleeping, on his own. I'm new to these forums and reading a lot of these slightly older threads, so I wanted to add to this even though it's slightly dated, as the issues of the box and autism are very close to me. My daughter is severely autistic and while I don't have an official diagnosis and will probably never get one as it would be pointless I'm likely on the ASD scale as well at about the same level Renarin appears to be. You have the box exactly right, it's a stim. When he's upset, when somethings bothering him, pulling it out and playing with it however he does allows him to calm his mind. I don't carry anything specific but when I'm upset I'll begin to fidget with something I have, a coin, my house keys, something. There is nothing special about the box other than it's value to Renarin as a way to calm himself. 1
Guest Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 I'm new to these forums and reading a lot of these slightly older threads, so I wanted to add to this even though it's slightly dated, as the issues of the box and autism are very close to me. My daughter is severely autistic and while I don't have an official diagnosis and will probably never get one as it would be pointless I'm likely on the ASD scale as well at about the same level Renarin appears to be. You have the box exactly right, it's a stim. When he's upset, when somethings bothering him, pulling it out and playing with it however he does allows him to calm his mind. I don't carry anything specific but when I'm upset I'll begin to fidget with something I have, a coin, my house keys, something. There is nothing special about the box other than it's value to Renarin as a way to calm himself. Thanks for the input! Your post got me wondering... I am not on the ASD spectrum, but I do love to fondle small objects Whenever I am in a meeting, I cannot stop fidgeting my pencil or my hair: the more stressed I am the more I fool-around with whatever objects I can get my hands on. Though I'd say fidgeting hardly works to calm me, it simply keeps an infinitesimal part of my brain busy while the rest keeps on worrying. However, I am sure not the only pencil player, pencil eater, fingers taping, hair twirling person not on the ASD spectrum there is... I thus need to ask, at which point does the tendency to play with small objects stops being mere fidgeting and becomes stim? Because by the number of half chewed pencils I see inside my work colleagues cubicles, I can safely say I am not an exception. Also, a lot of people have nervous tics... How are they different then stim? I, obviously, do not have first hand experience with autistic people, but this whole stim discussion got me thinking.
Charononus Posted October 19, 2015 Posted October 19, 2015 Thanks for the input! Your post got me wondering... I am not on the ASD spectrum, but I do love to fondle small objects Whenever I am in a meeting, I cannot stop fidgeting my pencil or my hair: the more stressed I am the more I fool-around with whatever objects I can get my hands on. Though I'd say fidgeting hardly works to calm me, it simply keeps an infinitesimal part of my brain busy while the rest keeps on worrying. However, I am sure not the only pencil player, pencil eater, fingers taping, hair twirling person not on the ASD spectrum there is... I thus need to ask, at which point does the tendency to play with small objects stops being mere fidgeting and becomes stim? Because by the number of half chewed pencils I see inside my work colleagues cubicles, I can safely say I am not an exception. Also, a lot of people have nervous tics... How are they different then stim? I, obviously, do not have first hand experience with autistic people, but this whole stim discussion got me thinking. This is a hard one to define, autism is a spectrum, and so the differences between a nervous tic or habit and a stim is harder to define at the higher end of the spectrum, however on the more severe end, it's easier to define. On the severe end, an individual will be unable to function at all or will take considerably longer to regain function without the stim. On that higher end, I would still be able to function, however my thought process will be slower and perhaps more likely to make mistakes. The nervous tic as you can see is quite similar however I don't think a pencil chewer for instance would start to feel out of sorts if kept from doing it for a moderate duration.
Guest Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 This is a hard one to define, autism is a spectrum, and so the differences between a nervous tic or habit and a stim is harder to define at the higher end of the spectrum, however on the more severe end, it's easier to define. On the severe end, an individual will be unable to function at all or will take considerably longer to regain function without the stim. On that higher end, I would still be able to function, however my thought process will be slower and perhaps more likely to make mistakes. The nervous tic as you can see is quite similar however I don't think a pencil chewer for instance would start to feel out of sorts if kept from doing it for a moderate duration. Oh I see. My thought process is not impacted if I am prevented to fidget an object: it is not part of it. It merely is a habit or a nervous tic, a way to evacuate the tension, but not an integral part of myself. I don't think either the pencil chewer would feel out of sync if his pencil suddenly disappeared, just merely annoyed. So Renarin's little box is important to his thinking process? I have to go back and see when he takes it out...
DreamEternal Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 Oh I see. My thought process is not impacted if I am prevented to fidget an object: it is not part of it. It merely is a habit or a nervous tic, a way to evacuate the tension, but not an integral part of myself. I don't think either the pencil chewer would feel out of sync if his pencil suddenly disappeared, just merely annoyed. So Renarin's little box is important to his thinking process? I have to go back and see when he takes it out... The problem is that Renarin is so light in the autism spectrum he is closer to you fidgeting something than someone with stronger autism using a stim. Actualy, at the point he is, his autism is more like a couple of quirks and personality traits.
Guest Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 The problem is that Renarin is so light in the autism spectrum he is closer to you fidgeting something than someone with stronger autism using a stim. Actualy, at the point he is, his autism is more like a couple of quirks and personality traits. This makes me wonder what's the relevance of Renarin being on the ASD spectrum is he is so light it is barely noticeable... If it only amounts to a few quirks and personality traits other individuals not on the spectrum may have as well, then why bother making him autistic?
DreamEternal Posted October 20, 2015 Posted October 20, 2015 This makes me wonder what's the relevance of Renarin being on the ASD spectrum is he is so light it is barely noticeable... If it only amounts to a few quirks and personality traits other individuals not on the spectrum may have as well, then why bother making him autistic? Well, at his age he already developed coping mechanisms that allow him to behave "normaly", but it could make it difficulty for him growing up. And many peculiar traits of autistic people can be problematic in a society that does not accept them. And maybe Brandon wanted to write a character with mild autism.
Guest Posted October 21, 2015 Posted October 21, 2015 Well, at his age he already developed coping mechanisms that allow him to behave "normaly", but it could make it difficulty for him growing up. And many peculiar traits of autistic people can be problematic in a society that does not accept them. And maybe Brandon wanted to write a character with mild autism. I guess I am going to keep on RAFO on Renarin in order to see how his autism will come into play.
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