How to refer to Jezrien

[Meg]

I might be nitpicking again, but that thought just came up in my brain and I wanted to throw it out because I don't wanted it to be forgotten. So this is quick and shortcut, sorry.

 

From the Prelude to The Way of Kings:

 

The king of Heralds (Jezrien) offered no further explanation.

 

 

In Baxil's Interlude he thinks:

 

If the Prime Kadasix may provide, ...

 

It's been theorized that the "Prime Kadasix" is the Emuli description for Jezrien, which -- compared to the first quote -- seems logical (Prime of the Kadasix aka King of the Heralds).

 

But then:

 

 

'Praise to Yaezir, Kadasix of Kings',

(said the lead vizier).

 

Darkness also said:

 

Praise Yaezir,” he said. “Herald of kings."

 

Jezrien (king of the Heralds) seems to be seen as the "Herald of kings".

 

Is this only another wording due to a presumably other language (than Alethi) or another religion? Or does this imply that all Heralds have their part of people they are "Heralds of ..."?

 

 

[Satsuoni he/him]

I assumed that those are different names for the same thing. "Prime" is a kind of ruler/king for that nation whose name I cannot ever remember. Kadasix is Herald. Hence, Prime Kadasix, King Herald, Herald of kings, Kadasix of Kings, Stormfather (presumably), etc.

 

As an aside, what is that cute thing on your new avatar, Meg? I could swear I saw it somewhere...

[11thorderknight]

Actually, I read this entirely differently. The phrases "King of Heralds" and "Herald of Kings" have two entirely different meanings. I think Brandon is throwing us a (somewhat?) subtle hint as to the identity of another of the Heralds. I believe that "Prime Kadasix" does, indeed, refer to Jezrien. But if that's the case, why also use the phrase "Kadasix of kings"? Especially coupled with another name, Yaezir? 

 

My theory: Jezrien is the king of the heralds, known to the Emuli as the Prime Kadasix. However, Yaezir is their name for a different herald, one who is/was known as "herald of kings". The name Yaezir is actually somewhat close, linguistically speaking, to the name Ishar (similar Y/I sound at the start of the name, similar Z/Sh sound in the middle, both end with R, same number of syllables). Add to this Darkness' comment "...if he ever stops drooling", and the appearance of a bearded old drunk man lying around the king's palace in Kholinar, and there's a definite connection. Also, Jezrien and Ishar form the two ends of the Herald progression that come around full circle, and it would definitely fit for them to be known as "king of heralds" and "herald of kings" respectively.

[Mailliw73 he/him]

That is a very good point, 11thorderknight. It would also fit with the palindromeiness of Vorin culture.

[Meg]

Actually, I read this entirely differently. The phrases "King of Heralds" and "Herald of Kings" have two entirely different meanings.

 

This is exactly what I wanted to say, I'm sorry for my bad wording.

 

I think Brandon is throwing us a (somewhat?) subtle hint as to the identity of another of the Heralds. I believe that "Prime Kadasix" does, indeed, refer to Jezrien. But if that's the case, why also use the phrase "Kadasix of kings"? Especially coupled with another name, Yaezir? 

 

My theory: Jezrien is the king of the heralds, known to the Emuli as the Prime Kadasix.

 

This is the theory I mentioned (it's from CheeseNinja).

 

However, Yaezir is their name for a different herald, one who is/was known as "herald of kings". The name Yaezir is actually somewhat close, linguistically speaking, to the name Ishar (similar Y/I sound at the start of the name, similar Z/Sh sound in the middle, both end with R, same number of syllables). Add to this Darkness' comment "...if he ever stops drooling", and the appearance of a bearded old drunk man lying around the king's palace in Kholinar, and there's a definite connection. Also, Jezrien and Ishar form the two ends of the Herald progression that come around full circle, and it would definitely fit for them to be known as "king of heralds" and "herald of kings" respectively.

 

This is interesting but totally contrary to what I, too, wanted to say.

 

Lift's Interlude takes place in Azir, not in Emul. IIRC Azir and Emul have the same roots (they both were Makabakam). My idea -- I apparently couldn't clarify -- is that Yaezir == Jezrien.

 

If I would be right, then why is Jezrien once the "king of Heralds" and then the "Herald of kings"? Spinning this idea further, I thought that every Herald might be a "Herald of ???". But what would "???" be?

 

I hope this is a bit less confusing than the OP.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I'm reasonable sure that Yaezir is just he Emuli/Azish/Makabaki name for Jezrien.  Keep in mind that "J" in Alethi is pronounced like a "Y" (Jasnah is pronounced like Yasnah).

[11thorderknight]

I'm reasonable sure that Yaezir is just he Emuli/Azish/Makabaki name for Jezrien. 

 

What makes you reasonably sure of this? I'll admit, there's no evidence to support Yaezir = Ishar, but there's even less evidence to support Yaezir = Jezrien. Also (not that it matters) Jezrien's name is about 5000 years old, and likely not even Alethi in origin. We have no idea how it's meant to be pronounced, unless someone's heard Brandon read the Prelude to WoK at some point. 

 

The letter J in romance languages has at least 4 different pronunciations that I can think of: J as in judge, Y as in yellow, H as in hello, and Sh as in short. We don't really know (at least I don't) how Brandon meant for it to sound, but he's said before that he doesn't really care how readers pronounce his characters names. I really doubt he'd be putting oblique character identity references in the letter J.

Edited October 26, 2013 by 11thorderknight

[Argent he/him]

The Vorin name for Jezrien is Jezerezeh('Elin) - I think it's safe to assume that the latter was derived from the former, and so Jezrien should be pronounced "Yezrien." I support the idea that Yaezir is just another name for him. 

 

On a side note, I've noticed a trend lately. We are all, I think, looking a little too hard into Brandon's works, trying to divine meaning from even the simplest things. I believe this is a prime example of this - taking something as simple as a difference in the naming convention of a religious figure, and turning it into something much more convoluted. 

[bookspren]

I assumed Yaezir was the Azish name for Jezrien. As to the "Herald of kings" comment, I think the Azish consider him the "patron" herald of kings since he was one, kind of like a patron saint. I don't have any facts to back up my opinion, it's just how I interpreted it.

[Gloom he/him]

I was left with the same impression as you Bookspren.

 

PS: If Jah-naah corrupted a bookspren would it become a spamspren?

[11thorderknight]

The Vorin name for Jezrien is Jezerezeh('Elin) - I think it's safe to assume that the latter was derived from the former, and so Jezrien should be pronounced "Yezrien." I support the idea that Yaezir is just another name for him. 

 

On a side note, I've noticed a trend lately. We are all, I think, looking a little too hard into Brandon's works, trying to divine meaning from even the simplest things. I believe this is a prime example of this - taking something as simple as a difference in the naming convention of a religious figure, and turning it into something much more convoluted. 

 

Definitely agree with you on the second part! 

 

And - you're right. the Vorin names are all phonetic palindromes, so the J in Jezerezeh, at least, must be pronounced Y or H. Good catch. 

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

Yeah, it was interesting to see in Lift's Interlude that it isn't just the Emuli who call the Heralds Kadasix, since apparently the Azish do as well.  I wouldn't be surprised if that was true of some more of the neighboring countries as well.  I figure Jezrien is closest to his actual name, since that was how Kalak thought of him in the Prelude.  5000 years is a lot of time for a name to break down into any number of derivatives, just look at the real world for comparison.

 

I didn't realize Brandon pronounced Jasnah with a "Y" sound until just a month a go when I was listening to him reading the WoR prologue online.  I figure "Yaezir" is rooted in "Jezrien", it's just the Azish derivative..

[marianmi]

To note that "king of heralds" may be technically incorrect... I don't think Jezrien was actually the other herald's king, but I think that before being a herald, Jezrien was a king -- so the title "stuck" after becoming herald. He may have been their king before being herald, and their leader afterwards, but not king.

 

Edit: king requires a kingdom.

Edited October 27, 2013 by marianmi

[Argent he/him]

Jezrien stood outside the ring of swords, looking eastward.

“Jezrien?”

The figure in white and blue glanced toward him. Even after all these centuries, Jezrien looked young, like a man barely into his thirtieth year. His short black beard was neatly trimmed, though his once-fine clothing was scorched and stained with blood. He folded his arms behind his back as he turned to Kalak.

“What is this, Jezrien?” Kalak asked. “Where are the others?”

“Departed.” Jezrien’s voice was calm, deep, regal. Though he hadn’t worn a crown in centuries, his royal manner lingered. He always seemed to know what to do. “You might call it a miracle. Only one of us died this time.”

 

This is proof enough to me that Jezrien

1. was a king before he became a Herald
2. was, temporarily, a king sometime during his Heraldship

[marianmi]

Where do you get 2) from ?

I see it as: he wore a crown centuries ago, when he was human (not herald). Now he is not a king anymore, but still has the royal manner.

[Argent he/him]

That's the more likely one. But he could've become a Herald, then become a king (of Alethela, for example), then decided it was not for him, and in a few centuries - Desolation.

[marianmi]

As a herald he would have been stuck in damnation before the desolation.

[Argent he/him]

True, but we don't know how long these Desolations last. They are not singular battles, that I am pretty confident about. Months, at least. It's still possible that he had been both a Herald and a king at the same (short) time. 

 

Though I am playing the devil's advocate here - I support the first option myself.

[Gloom he/him]

I'm strongly in favor of the first option.

[Urithiru]

The opening POV from Kalak in the prelude strongly indicates that the Heralds were normal people before they became Heralds. I might even go so far as to say it should put to rest the idea that the Heralds were directly created (from scratch, so to speak) rather than augmented after they were "normal" humans. And don't we have WoB confirmation somewhere that Shallash is Jezrien's daughter? (BTW, where can I find the database for such info from signings/interviews?) If the Heralds came to Roshar for Desolations then went back to Damnation between, it would stand to reason that there would be no time for having children. Also, that would mean that there were only 9 Heralds at one point (or that one died and was replaced). 

 

So I agree with option 1, too. Jezrien was a king before he became a Herald. That means he was a king of other people somewhere/sometime who obviously did not become Heralds. What happened to them? Did the Heralds (either before or after their Heraldization) predate the Dawnsigners and humanity's first appearance on Roshar? 

 

Probably unrelated, but this vision from chapter 2, TWoK stood out to me: 

"Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?"

Who is the "we" here? The Heralds, the Knights Radiant? Also, "Shard of my soul" sounds so much like a term of endearment, like "Shade of my heart" from WOT, that my best guess is that this voice is basically Cultivation mourning the loss of her love, Honor. Not sure if this a new idea or not, but does it change how we interpret the death visions if we assume that we are hearing Cultivation's consciousness/foresight leaking through in the moment of death?

[Argent he/him]

I don't believe Cultivation would say "Why have you forsaken us, Almighty" - neither the "us," nor "Almighty" fit. Both are possible, but the whole thing doesn't sound like something a lover would say, though I agree that the last sentence does sound like a term of endearment. I've always taken it more literally, however - that the speaker and the Almighty share a real connection, not just a religious one. For example, if the Heralds held Splinters of Honor (which is not a bad theory), this could work. 

 

All this being said, I think the words come from a Radiant. The ten orders fit. They were loved once, but fell from grace, so to speak. To them, it would certainly look like the Almighty has forsaken them (you know, 'cause he is dead...). The "shard of my soul" could kiiind of work if we consider the Radiant and his/her spren to be a single entity; I won't go into detail on this one, since I believe this sentence to be metaphorical, not literal, but it could work.

[Meg]

The opening POV from Kalak in the prelude strongly indicates that the Heralds were normal people before they became Heralds. I might even go so far as to say it should put to rest the idea that the Heralds were directly created (from scratch, so to speak) rather than augmented after they were "normal" humans.

 

I agree, I'm sure the Heralds had been normal, mortal humans before they became Heralds.

 

 

And don't we have WoB confirmation somewhere that Shallash is Jezrien's daughter?

 

Yes we have

 

Q. Is Shallash the daughter of Jezrien?

A: Umm… Oh, yes, she is his daughter.

 

source

 

 

(BTW, where can I find the database for such info from signings/interviews?)

 

You can either search the Events, Signing and Stalking Forum (especially for newer information) or you search the WoT-Database.

Some tidbits can be found with "googling", too.

 

 

If the Heralds came to Roshar for Desolations then went back to Damnation between, it would stand to reason that there would be no time for having children. Also, that would mean that there were only 9 Heralds at one point (or that one died and was replaced). 

 

I think that Shalash was mature already when she was chosen as a Herald.

[Urithiru]

Hmm. If this is from a Herald, then there is still a big "how" to account for. These visions are happening on a global scale, and apart from that one Shin who refused to share, the power behind the visions seems to have no idea who exactly is speaking or listening. To me this sounds more like a mournful god who isn't paying attention to the consequences of her awesome power than a Herald (who so far don't seem to have anywhere near these kinds of powers). But, you may still be right, and maybe some more powerful entity (or artifact of Honor) is tapping into and sharing the minds of the Heralds with the rest of the world because they have abandoned the proper Heralding protocols. Sort of like what is happening with Dalinar.

 

I agree that "Almighty" is a weird thing for Cultivation to call Honor. If it's coming from a Herald, could it be that "Almighty" means Honor AND Cultivation (after all, all the symbols for the Almighty show the double-eye joining of the two)? Cultivation seems to have abandoned or possibly cursed the Heralds much more clearly than Honor did (who was murdered).

 

Maybe it should be read as "We were all one big happy family once, god-parents, so why have you abandoned us?"

 

Edit: And thanks to Meg for the database tips.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Urithiru

[Gloom he/him]

 (BTW, where can I find the database for such info from signings/interviews?)

Who is the "we" here? The Heralds, the Knights Radiant? Also, "Shard of my soul" sounds so much like a term of endearment, like "Shade of my heart" from WOT, that my best guess is that this voice is basically Cultivation mourning the loss of her love, Honor. Not sure if this a new idea or not, but does it change how we interpret the death visions if we assume that we are hearing Cultivation's consciousness/foresight leaking through in the moment of death?

 

Most of the Q/A stuff has been added to Theory Land here

The most recent Q/A sessions from Chicago and Seattle can be found here.

 

I believe that the concensus on that quote was that it was from a KR. That may be wrong, that one may have been Cultivation, but we can assume with some confidence that most of the quotes appear to be from KR. There is reason to believe that the Death Quotes are from varying sources, so it's possible they could come from anywhere.

[Urithiru]

Most of the Q/A stuff has been added to Theory Land here

The most recent Q/A sessions from Chicago and Seattle can be found here.

 

I believe that the concensus on that quote was that it was from a KR. That may be wrong, that one may have been Cultivation, but we can assume with some confidence that most of the quotes appear to be from KR. There is reason to believe that the Death Quotes are from varying sources, so it's possible they could come from anywhere.

So if the quote is from a KR, then it is temporal shift of some kind, an echo of times past? Unless I totally misunderstood the book, these quotes are all being recorded in Kharbranth by Taravangian's healers in real time, right? And the KR are all dead, but the Heralds are still alive (as is Cultivation). Also, at least one of the quotes refers to 3 of 16 ruling on Roshar, so that's some Adonalsium knowledge (which not even Sazed has). Makes me think even more that at least some of these death quotes are coming from the consciousnesses of one of the original shareholders: Cultivation, Honor/Tanavast (via some artifact like the one that shows visions to Dalinar), or Odium/Rayse.