Ways of taking in Stormlight

[ADIMORTIS he/him]

I was wondering on how a surgebinder takes in stormlight???  Kaladin and Szeth take it in by inhalation.In the ars arcanum the Body focus for Jez (windrunners) is given as Inhalation.

So is it different for each KR order???

I've read the Steelhunt chapter but don't want to include it in this.

Don't want to spoil that for others..

[Argent he/him]

It's one of those things we have enough data to come up with theories, but not enough to actually make those theories valid. Kaladin and Szeth fit nicely into the "Order -> Herald -> body focus" kind of logic, but what about Shallan? If she were a Radiant, she would be a Lightweaver; but the blood body focus doesn't really explain how she drew the the Stormlight during her two Soulcastings. Or how Jasnah, who would be an Elsecaller, with a body focus of oil (of all things...), would do the same. Palah's order, the one Ty from the Words of Radiance interlude probably belongs to has body focus of hair - how would that even work?! Not to mention that Lift outright contradicts this idea.

 

So, no, I am far from convinced. Perhaps only the Windrunners can inhale Stormlight - it's not a bad theory - and all the other orders have to physical touch the infused gems, or at least be very close to them (so the gems could be in a pouch, for example). Or perhaps several orders have a special way of obtaining Stormlight - from all we know there might be an order whose members can drain Stormlight out of... the plants around them, for example. Or another that allows its Radiants to bleed themselves and effectively use the blood sacrifice as a source of Stormlight. It could be anything is what I am saying - just probably not this

[11thorderknight]

Or maybe, all the Radiants can breathe in Stormlight. Lift is a completely unique case, and thus uninformative for purposes of this discussion. Though, even in her case, those around her who are in the know assume she can access Stormlight in lamps/chandeliers, etc. (Sorry for the vagueness....).

 

Also, in the WoK Jasnah Soulcasting scenes, its always emphasized that Jasnah takes a deep breath right as she does a big Soulcasting. 

Edited October 17, 2013 by 11thorderknight

[Gloom he/him]

I think it varies between orders. I believe that the more combat aspected Radiants can breath in Stormlight, while the less combat aspected Radiants actually need to hold something infused with Stormlight.

[11thorderknight]

That implies that there were Orders that were more "combat-aspected" than others. Given that the Radiants as a whole were founded to protect humanity against Desolations, this doesn't make sense. I can see individual Radiants being less combat-oriented than others - their powers don't give them any automatic skill in swordfighting, for instance - but I would have a hard time accepting that entire Orders were relegated to non-combat roles. 

 

Again, this is hard to get into without directly quoting the Lift interlude, but there is direct evidence there that Stormlight can be accessed without direct contact by a Radiant of her Order.

[Gloom he/him]

I don't believe that every surge binder is the heavy cavalry. I believe some are infantry, some are medics, some are ranged combatants, and some are logistics and support. I believe that the Knights Radiant were a self contained army capable of functioning independently of outside agencies. For this to be the case, the above must be true.

 

Some Orders are far more capable in support positions than others. A few Wind Runners who don't have the heart to fight may be utilized as scouts and messengers, but for the most part a Wind Runner is a combatant. A Soulcaster can be either a combatant or support. They have more versatility. It could be argued that putting a healer into a combat role is a waste of a good healer. So yes, I believe that their were Orders that were more 'combat-aspected' than others. This doesn't mean that you were relegated to a caste. It means that they were better suited to a task. I don't believe that a Soulcaster would be, or could be forced to sit at a desk while the warriors went out to fight if that Soulcaster decided to fight.

 

Jasnah is a perfect example. I don't doubt, that Jasnah could, or would given the proper circumstances, get into the middle of melee and start Soulcasting her enemies into stone. I don't think this is where she would think she was likely to accomplish the most good however. I think Jasnah would be more comfortable making war plans, researching information about the enemy, and finding the perfect place to fight. Actually, I think Jasnah would be the leader of her Order, and would be directing the research her team was conducting and trying to put the pieces together while consulting with command.

[Shardlet he/him]

Again, this is hard to get into without directly quoting the Lift interlude, but there is direct evidence there that Stormlight can be accessed without direct contact by a Radiant of her Order.

 

I'm glad you chose not directly quote the interlude.  But, I think it might be best to refrain from even mentioning or referring to Steelhunt info (in open forums) until the hunt is done or nearly done.  It seems like comments like these are leading to a lot of angst because it is essentially telling people who don't have access that they are missing out on something (especially when referencing theories or ideas).  I know that I am not a moderator, but I have made a couple of posts about how things have been going on the Steelhunt and now I feel like I ought to back up what I said by encouraging others to help out the situation and consider others when posting. 

 

Normally, I would prefer to PM a comment like this, but I am hoping to catch everyone's attention with this post.  I hope it does not feel like I am singling you out, 11th.  I am directing this post to the general population. 

[Shardlet he/him]

Double post, I know.  But, I think these posts should be separate.

 

Jasnah is a perfect example. I don't doubt, that Jasnah could, or would given the proper circumstances, get into the middle of melee and start Soulcasting her enemies into stone. I don't think this is where she would think she was likely to accomplish the most good however. I think Jasnah would be more comfortable making war plans, researching information about the enemy, and finding the perfect place to fight. Actually, I think Jasnah would be the leader of her Order, and would be directing the research her team was conducting and trying to put the pieces together while consulting with command.

 

Actually, I think this not an ideal example for your point, Gloom.  Everything you mentioned there are personal traits of Jasnah's and doesn't really mention uses of her surgebinding abilities.  Jasnah has transportation and transformation.  Both these abilities would be useful in both support and combat situations.  But, likely primarily in support since the soulcasting would be rather stormlight intensive.  But, having someone with transportation implanted within a unit would likely be very effective for rapid insertion and retreat. 

[11thorderknight]

Double post, I know.  But, I think these posts should be separate.

 

 

Actually, I think this not an ideal example for your point, Gloom.  Everything you mentioned there are personal traits of Jasnah's and doesn't really mention uses of her surgebinding abilities.  Jasnah has transportation and transformation.  Both these abilities would be useful in both support and combat situations.  But, likely primarily in support since the soulcasting would be rather stormlight intensive.  But, having someone with transportation implanted within a unit would likely be very effective for rapid insertion and retreat. 

I couldn't have said it better! These are all aspects of Jasnah's own character, not her potential abilities with surgebinding, and say nothing about the likely role of Elsecallers as an order. I'm sure different orders each had their own unique strengths and ways to contribute, but at the end of the day, I'm sure each and every one was well represented on the battlefield. 

 

Also, despite all the cool things they can do with stormlight, it may well be that the most effective way to fight thunderclasts and voidbringers is to simply get in there with Blade and Plate and go at it old-school. And in that, all the orders would be equally capable.

[11thorderknight]

I'm glad you chose not directly quote the interlude.  But, I think it might be best to refrain from even mentioning or referring to Steelhunt info (in open forums) until the hunt is done or nearly done.  It seems like comments like these are leading to a lot of angst because it is essentially telling people who don't have access that they are missing out on something (especially when referencing theories or ideas).  I know that I am not a moderator, but I have made a couple of posts about how things have been going on the Steelhunt and now I feel like I ought to back up what I said by encouraging others to help out the situation and consider others when posting. 

 

Normally, I would prefer to PM a comment like this, but I am hoping to catch everyone's attention with this post.  I hope it does not feel like I am singling you out, 11th.  I am directing this post to the general population. 

You're right - I stand corrected. 

[Gloom he/him]

Also, despite all the cool things they can do with stormlight, it may well be that the most effective way to fight thunderclasts and voidbringers is to simply get in there with Blade and Plate and go at it old-school. And in that, all the orders would be equally capable.

 

I disagree. Sure, any idiot can swing a Shardblade, but I wouldn't say that members of Shallans Order will be just as effective as a Wind Runner, Shards or no Shards, A Wind Runner will be a much more effective warrior. His surges are way more useful on a battlefield. Each Order has it's own magic system. Some of those magic systems are geared specifically towards battle, while other are capable of being used in battle, but aren't necessarily geared for that purpose.

 

I don't think Jasnah was a bad example, because of what her Order represents, and the type of people that are likely to bond with that type of spren are generally going to be academics and advisers. If anything, I think Jasnah may be an outlier because of her willingness to throw down. Just as I believe that those chosen to be Wind Runners will be honorable warriors. Some will be smarter and have more battle savvy than others, some will be reckless, and other cautious, but they will all have the same general characteristics. This is why the spren chose to bond with them in the first place.

 

I also think that if Darkness comes to the Shattered Plains, he will find Kaladin a far tougher nut to crack than those other Surgebinders he's been tracking. I think he'd be lucky to walk away.

[Shardlet he/him]

...but I wouldn't say that members of Shallans Order will be just as effective as a Wind Runner, Shards or no Shards, A Wind Runner will be a much more effective warrior. His surges are way more useful on a battlefield. Each Order has it's own magic system. Some of those magic systems are geared specifically towards battle, while other are capable of being used in battle, but aren't necessarily geared for that purpose.

 

I don't think Jasnah was a bad example, because of what her Order represents, and the type of people that are likely to bond with that type of spren are generally going to be academics and advisers. If anything, I think Jasnah may be an outlier because of her willingness to throw down. Just as I believe that those chosen to be Wind Runners will be honorable warriors. Some will be smarter and have more battle savvy than others, some will be reckless, and other cautious, but they will all have the same general characteristics. This is why the spren chose to bond with them in the first place.

 

Point of fact though, we don't know what Shallan's order's surges are.  Clearly, Jasnah has shown that transformation is potent in its own right.  As for light, we don't know precisely what that does or what the combination of the two does.  As to Windrunner's surges being particularly useful for battle, I think that impression comes from that really being the only use we have seen them put to so far.  I don't see anything in the surges themselves that really smacks of particular being 'geared' towards battle specifically.  As to Jasnah being an outlier, that is a big statement considering we 1) haven't seen more that transformation from her; and 2) she is the only one of that order we have seen.  The ones I see that could be particularly pertinent to battle would be Leading, Protecting, Brave, Creative, Wise, Careful, Resolute, and Resourceful.  Argument could also be made for Dependable, Confident , and Obedient.  The attributes that seem most exclusively pertinent to battle are Protecting and Brave.  In other words, I don't think the ideals are the most reliable guide to the sorting the battle roles of each of the orders.  Particularly when we have such a small sample of information.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Shardlet

[Windrunner he/him]

Actually, Brandon recently confirmed that Shallan has light for her second Surge here.

 

SA: And Shallan has transformation and Lightweaving. So…

LI: Oh, that’s interesting!

EM: Have we seen the Lightweaving, or is that just..?

SA: Um, I’m not… Have we seen Lightweaving? I swear that she’s done some, but if she hasn’t you’ll see it very soon.SA: And Shallan has transformation and Lightweaving. So…

[Shardlet he/him]

Right, we know the name of it, but we don't know what it does precisely.  We assume it lightweaving.  But, what exactly does that do?  What are the extents of the power?  And What power does the combination of Light and Transformation yield?  Important questions to which we have little information.  All the info about lightweaving that we have, that I know of, comes from an unpublished work.  And even that is only a snapshot.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Shardlet

[Aonar he/him]

If Lightweaving in SA works anything like how it seems to work in Liar I'm not sure if it even needs a combination power. Having things constantly change around you and never knowing what is real and what is illusion? That in itself seems pretty darn useful in a fight to me.

 

Of couse I can't remember anything about how Shallan took in Stromlight off the top of my head, so whether or not the Lightweavers were more of a combat order or a sort of PR/support order is kind moot anyway, but they could very easily hold their own in a battle.

[Gloom he/him]

Okay, so apparently, I'm the only one who doesn't think that some Orders are better equipped to fight on the front lines, in general melee, than others. That everyone else who posted in response to this idea basically believes that all Orders will be equally capable in the thick of battle in hand to hand combat. I'm aware that we lack extensive amounts of details about many of the Orders. I think we have enough details to make an initial assessment though.

 

If you believe that every Order is equal in every way but just has different powers, that's fine. Based on the amount of information currently available I suppose that you could see it that way if you wanted to. I think your wrong. I think that different Orders excel at different things. I think that some Orders will excel in hand to hand, others will be good at hand to hand, and others will suck at it. There may be outliers within these Orders. I think the same will be true of ranged spell casters, and support positions. I believe that every Order will be capable of contributing to the fight, and that every Surgebinder is dangerous, but I don't think they are equally dangerous.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Gloom

[Windrunner he/him]

Just throwing my two cents in here, I agree with you wholeheartedly Gloom. I don't think that every Radiant's powers are equally good in combat, even if they all have potential combat applications.

[Shardlet he/him]

I also agree that each order's abilities will lend itself to specialization in the way that the orders will be used in combat.  There are several things I agree with you on Gloom.  I just think you are making too many assumptions on counting orders out of combat when we know very little about what each order can do and how those abilities can be adapted to combat.  I don't think anybody has suggested that each order will be used in combat in an identical manner.  But, artilliary, infantry, heavy infantry, and cavalry all have different roles and all are directly involved in combat.  I just think it premature to count orders out of combat when we only know the full ability set (not just surge names) for one order.

[Windrunner he/him]

I don't think we can count any of them out of combat entirely, but those with Travel will probably be used also heavily for communications, moreso than a Windrunner, and if you can heal, there's gonna be more of those people in the triage tents than on the battlefield. I think a lot of it comes down to the personality of the Radiant in question as well. Someone can be all about protection and leadership, but follow those ideals by planning battles from behind the front lines rather than directly standing between a Voidbringer and a child.

[Gloom he/him]

It also depends on the spren. If one type of spren only chooses pacifists, then those chosen will be non-combatants. Granted that's an extreme generalization, but the point it valid. We know that some spren types are quite willing to choose people who are in no way ready warriors.

[Argent he/him]

I think this is beyond the potential Surgebinders' or Radiants' affinity for combat. As long as their Ideals don't contradict the concept of combat (and I'll go off on a limb and say that none of them do), then what the Surgebinder does with the power coming from the Nahel bond is entirely their business. It's possible, even likely, that some Surgebinders will find combat naturally attractive or unattractive, but that's more personality that spren. If one of your Ideals is "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves," chances are you'll have to do some fighting; the Ideal itself suggest conflict, struggle, confrontation - and those are often either the cause or the effect of (physical) violence. If, on the other hand, your Ideal sounds like "I will teach who lack knowledge," they you probably won't be too keen on fighting. But neither one is forcefully restrictive - a Windrunner could choose to "protect those who cannot protect themselves" by leading them away from danger, sneaking into the night; and a member of our hypothetical educational order could decide that the most valuable knowledge is the knowledge of warfare.