Investiture Twin borns.

[Elend_Rahl]

If a Twinborn could tap investiture and burn, say, steel, would that create a stronger steel push?

 

And would a feruchemist who is tapping Investiture be able to store a more powerful charge, causing and end positive result??

 

I would assume the balance to that being when storing investiture, you can only store in an end negative way, making investiture dificult to store, because you would have to store it alone or decrease the other storage you put in.

[Elend_Rahl]

I may just be way off.

[aeromancer]

We don't know a lot about tapping Investiture. But the result would still be end-neutral, because you need to decrease your storing powers while storing up Investiture.

 

Steel compounding does create a stronger Steelpush, but not in the way you think it does. It does not create a stronger Push, rather the Push happens faster (assuming you're using the speed). And since F(orce) = m(chull) x a(cceleration), when the acceleration increases, the force does as well.

[Shardlet]

I'm not sure that the speed of the push itself would increase.  I can really only see an increase in the implementation of a push.  It is physical speed that is stored.

[Oudeis]

Steel compounding does create a stronger Steelpush, but not in the way you think it does.

 

I think you misread his question, although perhaps I am.

 

I think he means a Twinborn who has f-nicrosil and a-steel. Let's say he's got a charge of investiture. If he taps it feruchemically while burning steel, I think he was asking if that would make the steelpush stronger.

[Shardlet]

I think he means a Twinborn who has f-nicrosil and a-steel. Let's say he's got a charge of investiture. If he taps it feruchemically while burning steel, I think he was asking if that would make the steelpush stronger.

 

Seems plausible given what we know about the variability of allomantic strength from person-to-person.  Tap investiture to give your overall allomantic strength a boost.  Even given the scant understanding we have of feruchemical investiture, seems plausible.

 

Edit: My only qualm is that it seems like it would be extraordinarily powerfull after a fashion.  Consider, how often are you actually using your allomantic ability?  Seems like it would be insanely easy to store your allomantic strength when not using it only to draw it out in the few times when you are using it.  Perhaps you can only store while actively using the investiture?  Weaker steel pushes to store up for more potent pushes later.  Seems like a better balance.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Shardlet

[Two McMillion]

I think it's balanced, Shardlet, because you won't get very many people who have the chance to use it. Maybe you have a Twinborn who can tap Nicrosil and burn some other metal, but I'd hazard the enhancement effect wouldn't be all that different from a Mistborn buring Duralumin (Vin threw a troop of horses using that, remember...). Powerful, yes, but not overwhelming. This theory seems to more or less just give Feruchemists their own version of Duralumin IMO.

 

The only people who would get a massive power boost from this would be your Lord Ruler types, or possibly a Hemalurgist, and those are a different kind of catagory altogether.

[Pechvarry]

@OP: we don't have any good canonical references stating how, exactly, Feruchemical nicrosil works. Nor do we have any on what a stronger steelpush actually means (weight, force, speed, whatever). Everything is conjecture. We have the Mistborn Adventure Game telling us you can use it to fuel other feruchemy, and it seems reasonable that it can be used for allomancy as well. But remember none of us are sure.

But assuming it can affect allomancy...

@Two Mcmillion: why only TLR and hemalurgists? Any Feruchemical nicrosil twinborn would have their own scalar duralumin for their allomantic metal. Unless you're talking about stacking the effects with duralumin?  In which case, yeah.  We'd need a pretty special dude.
 

[Elend_Rahl]

If Feruchemical nicrosil stores investiture, and Investiture is the effectiveness you store your ability to invest your abilities with power, such as storing how effective your steel push would be, the when you'd tap it, it would increase the effectiveness of your steel puch. Kind of like in THe Final Empire, when Vin's pushes were stronger then they should've been, except possibly to a more dramatic extent.

Basically, when Tapping stored Feruchemical nicrosil, a twinborn would be getting more out of their metals.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Elend_Rahl

[Two McMillion]

@Two Mcmillion: why only TLR and hemalurgists? Any Feruchemical nicrosil twinborn would have their own scalar duralumin for their allomantic metal. Unless you're talking about stacking the effects with duralumin?  In which case, yeah.  We'd need a pretty special dude.

 

 

Yeah, you're right, any Feruchemical nicrosil would get the bonus. My mistake. I guess I was just thinking that TLR's allomancy was quite powerful, and since we didn't see him drinking vials of metals regularly, he probably wasn't using duralumin to get those effect (for example, during the executions). My guess is he was probably tapping the Feruchemical nicrosil he had previously compounded.

[Scriptorian]

There is a lot being said here, so let me just sum up my thoughts on feruchemical nicrosil.

 

I assume that any magical power source can eventually be broken down into investiture. I'm guessing that a shard's power is essentially pure investiture, and we know that Preservation/Ruin could directly power allomancy. Therefor by tapping nicrosil, you could power any allomantic power without the need for metals (like Vin using the mists). Hypothetically, it could also be used to power any other magic system as well, with the limitations being that the users spiritweb has to be set up to use investiture in that way. I.e. a mistborn could fuel any metals but a misting could only use it to fuel their one.

 

I believe this is why the Lord Ruler's allomancy was so powerful. He would compound something, store it as investiture, and then have a near-limitless supply of super-allomantic power. We know that his metalminds were only partly atium, so I'm betting that they were primarily composed of nicrosil. This would also mean he only had to wear those two metalminds and still have access to all feruchemical powers. And he would only need to burn any metals while compounding.

 

For a twinborn, I would think that they would have to be burning their metal to store investiture, since this is the only way a misting can access that innate bit of Preservation. Essentially you'd burn your metal for a while with a significantly reduced effect, then you could tap investiture for a huge power boost.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Serendipity

[Elend_Rahl]

I don't think you could fuel any metal with just th investiture from Feruchemical nicrosil, I think when you store investiture the invested powers of your metals or your ability to invest a feruchemical charge into your metalmind is reduced by the neutral end make up of feruchemy, but when you tap Feruchemical nicrosil, your ability to invest your metals or metalminds is boosted based on what you stored.

 

Say a full feruchemist stored say 50% of his ability to invest metals with properties, his invstiture, and attempted to store half his weight in iron. for that amount of effort, while storing Feruchemical nicrosil, he would only be able to invest it with half his weight. But while tapping that stored inveestiture and attempting to store health he would be able to store twice as much for the the oringinal investiture. If he was storing 50% investiture in Feruchemical nicrosil. And once his Feruchemical nicrosil charge ran out his output of investiture would revery to the normal amount.

 

Same with a twinBorn's metals. A Nicrosil-Steel twinborn would have less powerful pushes as he stored Feruchemical nicrosil, and and momre powerful as he tapped Feruchemical nicrosil. Because to burn a metal is to use investiture, which you could store.

[Pechvarry]

While I agree it's most likely as Elend is interpreting it, it could just be "burn metal while storing and you have no allomantic effect. Tapping doesn't improve your abilities it just lets you use them with an empty stomach."

Which would still be less lame-sounding than storing calories or making yourself manic-depressive.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Pechvarry

[Oudeis]

While I agree it's most likely as Elend is interpreting it, it could just be "burn metal while storing and you have no allomantic effect. Tapping doesn't improve your abilities it just lets you use them with an empty stomach."

Which would still be less lame-sounding than storing calories or making yourself manic-depressive.

 

I think I'm with Serendipity on this one. What the rest of you are talking about isn't storing Investiture itself, it's storing your own potential for Investiture. I think that Serendipity's idea more closely fits the wording from the Ars Arcanum. Burning a metal, but instead of getting the immediate effect, you "store" that burn in a nicrosilmind, and then you have a store that cannot be destroyed with aluminum, a backup if you burn your charges with duralumin, or if someone locks you up for a few days and waits for it to pass through your system (which you change for the drawbacks of "can be taken from you" and "possibly vulnerable to ironpull and steelpush".

 

If that's not the case, if you do in fact store your own ability to Coinshot temporarily so as to be a much more powerful Coinshot later, I still don't think it's quite as useful as you might think. Vin proved that really strong ironpulls or steelpushes can easily kill you if you don't have pewter. It wouldn't necessarily give you a subtler touch with brass, just let you Riot more people (or Riot them MUCH harder) and as we've seen, if people figure out they're being manipulated it proves far less effective. It would totally be a very, very useful trait in certain specific circumstances (like taking control of a hemallurgic creature or breaking through a coppercloud for a second) but by the nature of feruchemy, it would make you someone who has to build up these traits over long periods of time in order to be great for a very short time, so basically you become a carry.

[Elend_Rahl]

If that's true, then it wouldn't really woprk for feruchemists. If it works as storing the act of investiture in percentages, such as I said above, then it could work for feruchemists as well, by storing their ability to invest metals with properties.

[Pechvarry]

Maybe I need a high-level summary. I see "use in place of metals" and "increase power." It looks to me like Serendipity took it further than me and said store the power and use it to fuel _any_ power, which fits with what the MAG says about its feruchemy.

But as a twinborn, you can only burn one metal, leaving you with the "burn on an empty stomach" use.

All fair theories, I think. of course, we've lightly theorized about using it to store your innate, human investiture and tap to be a mistborn before.

[Oudeis]

If that's true, then it wouldn't really woprk for feruchemists. If it works as storing the act of investiture in percentages, such as I said above, then it could work for feruchemists as well, by storing their ability to invest metals with properties.

 

Valid. However, we were never promised that every power was useful on its own. Aluminum on its own doesn't, at first glance, seem to have much utility (though we've heard from Sanderson that it might). Duralumin without anything else to burn doesn't help you much.

 

Here's a random thought. What if you're a nicrosil ferring, and someone tries to use brass to Soothe you? Can you start tapping, and drain away the Investiture being used ON you?

[Moogle]

Here's a random thought. What if you're a nicrosil ferring, and someone tries to use brass to Soothe you? Can you start tapping, and drain away the Investiture being used ON you?

 

Investiture actually makes you resistant to other Investiture, so I suspect you could in fact start draining your metalminds to act as a 'shield' against Soothers/Rioters. No idea on how you store Investiture, though. I'm feeling uncertain with the theories presented here.

[Elend_Rahl]

You could probably store a percentage of your natural investiture granted by preservation.

[Windrunner]

Investiture actually makes you resistant to other Investiture, so I suspect you could in fact start draining your metalminds to act as a 'shield' against Soothers/Rioters. No idea on how you store Investiture, though. I'm feeling uncertain with the theories presented here.

That is a fascinating idea...

 

This isn't the place for it, but it makes me wonder if Elantrians, Awakeners, or people holding Stormlight would be able to be Soothed or Rioted.

[Kadrok]

Investiture actually makes you resistant to other Investiture, so I suspect you could in fact start draining your metalminds to act as a 'shield' against Soothers/Rioters. No idea on how you store Investiture, though. I'm feeling uncertain with the theories presented here.

 

According to the MAG, you can store a Nicroburst if a Nicrosil misting uses their power on you.

[11thorderknight]

My take on Nicrosil:

 

A full feruchemist (I'm going to call them Keepers, for simplicity's sake, much like full allomancers are called Mistborn) who has a Nicrosil metalmind would be able to store whatever attribute he wanted in another metalmind (for example, store weight in an ironmind) and then store that storage, i.e. investiture, into the nicrosilmind. Then, he could tap the investiture to fill ANY of his metalminds. 

 

The upshot of this is that it essentially allows a Keeper to fuel any of the feruchemical abilities by storing any of the other abilities that might not be as useful in that situation. In other words, it makes feruchemy end-positive with respect to each particular ability.

 

The most direct application I can think of would be to constantly be storing weight, heat, and calories/hydration, and then use those to fuel things that are hard to store up, like speed, health, or alertness. This would actually make a Keeper with access to a nicrosilmind a total badass, if you think about it.

 

In the case of a Twinborn with Feruchemical nicrosil, I propose that he would be able to burn whatever his allomantic metal happens to be (say, for argument's sake, pewter), and instead of getting stronger/faster/awesomer, he could store that energy/investiture in his nicromind. He could then tap the nicromind to get allomantic pewter effect without needing to burn pewter. However, since feruchemy can be tapped in one fell swoop, he could tap an hour's worth of burned pewter in a minute, thereby making his pewter allomancy 60x more powerful. That's how TLR was able to be such a strong allomancer - he stored allomantic strength in nicrominds for when he needed it.

 

It's actually quite elegant, if you think about it. The combination of allomancy and feruchemy allows allomancy to overcome the limitations of feruchemy through compounding, and it allows feruchemy to overcome the limitations of allomancy through investiture storage. Brilliant!

Edited October 7, 2013 by 11thorderknight

[Scriptorian]

Something that occurred to me the other day (and I don't think anyone has pointed this out), is that if you can transfer storage from a nicrosilmind into any other metalmind, than a full feruchemist could live for a very long time by simply transferring easy storage, like weight, into an atiummind. This overcomes the limiter on Feruchemical atium that you have to spend just as long old to become younger. With nicrosil, you just have to spend time weighing less!

 

So the inevitable outcome of this is that a feruchemist should live on a tropical island (storing heat), each milkshakes all day (storing calories), weigh less, store sight to keep the sun less painful, and convert all of these stores into age and live forever in a paradise.

[Kadrok]

That's sort of how Nicrosil Feruchemy works from how I understand it. Basically you convert something else (Weight, Heat, whatever) into what I like to call "blank" investiture stored in the Nicrosilmind. Then when tapping something else, you can also tap the blank investiture to supplement the other thing you're tapping... you can use like half the strength or healing or whatever by filling in the gap with blank investiture.

 

From what the MAG suggests, you definitely need some of the "flavoured" charges to tell the "blank" ones what to do (in the MAG this manifests as being only able to add as much investiture charges as you've added strength or whatever, meaning there still must be at least 50% real charges) so you would have to spend at least some time aged in addition to the time you spend colder/lighter/pick your poison and also in addition to the time you spend converting the heat/weight/whatever into blank investiture. Suffice it to say that monkeying around with extending your life by storing youth and then supplementing the tapping with Nicrosil is likely possible, but would require a fair bit of effort and would definitely be no where near as efficient as Compounding.

[Moogle]

Something that occurred to me the other day (and I don't think anyone has pointed this out), is that if you can transfer storage from a nicrosilmind into any other metalmind, than a full feruchemist could live for a very long time by simply transferring easy storage, like weight, into an atiummind. This overcomes the limiter on Feruchemical atium that you have to spend just as long old to become younger. With nicrosil, you just have to spend time weighing less!

 

Unfortunately, you still have the same problem as atium Compounding with this method. The problem is that as you get older, staying the same age means you need to tap more age. (If you want to look 20 when you're 50, you need to tap 30 years of age constantly. Now when you're 200, you have to pay 180 years of age constantly.) As you get older, you will require more and more age to stay within an age that lets you stay alive.

 

Yes, Nicrosilminds let you live much longer, but there's still an upper limit. Eventually it will cost more age to stay alive than you have weight, so you have to start storing your senses too. Eventually you'll end up storing all your senses, your strength, your mental/physical speed, live in a desert, eat a feast every day.. and you'll still barely be able to store enough age to not die. And then you will.

 

Really, atium as a Feruchemical metal just depresses me. But at least it lets you live thousands of years before things get bad! It's better than the alternative.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Moogle